'Propping and tow roping'

[Invicta1958]

Hi all,

 

I have a question re 'propping'. ‘The Railway Employment (Prevention of Accidents) Act 1900’ had a wide range of objectives which affected a wide range of activities, practice and infrastructure on the railways, one section of which was 'Propping and tow roping'. Tow roping is self explanatory but can anyone explain 'propping'? I had in the past assumed it was propping of open wagon doors but as it is mentioned in the context of moving wagons I now think it is short for propelling - using a pole from the loco to wagons on an adjacent line. I know there are pictures of tow roping but I don't think I have seen one of propping. Whatever it is, done anyone know of any pictures?

 

Thanks

 

Simon

[iands]

30 minutes ago, Invicta1958 said:

Hi all,

 

I have a question re 'propping'. ‘The Railway Employment (Prevention of Accidents) Act 1900’ had a wide range of objectives which affected a wide range of activities, practice and infrastructure on the railways, one section of which was 'Propping and tow roping'. Tow roping is self explanatory but can anyone explain 'propping'? I had in the past assumed it was propping of open wagon doors but as it is mentioned in the context of moving wagons I now think it is short for propelling - using a pole from the loco to wagons on an adjacent line. I know there are pictures of tow roping but I don't think I have seen one of propping. Whatever it is, done anyone know of any pictures?

 

Thanks

 

Simon

I think there have been photos of "propelling" posted on RMWeb previously, can't remember which thread but someone will know. 

[Chris Turnbull]

I think it is propping of wagon doors.  Here's what the 1927 LNER Appendix to the Working Timetables had to say about it.

 

  Propping.pdf

 

Clearly a dangerous practice frowned upon by 1927.

 

Chris Turnbull

[Jeremy Cumberland]

I agree with @Invicta1958that it cannot be this because the exact wording in the Act is "Movement of waggons by propping and tow roping."

 

I looked up both "prop" (verb) and "propping" in the full online OED (which is often very helpful with obscure words in old, formal documents), but it offers no suitable suggestions that I can see.

[Wheatley]

Moving wagons  by pushing with a locomotive on an adjacent road by means of a long wooden prop fixed across the buffers. Also referred to as pole shunting. 

 

 

Edited November 12, 2020 by Wheatley

[F-UnitMad]

In the USA it was called 'poling' a car, the only video I can find is this - 

Fairly obvious why it was frowned on and eventually outlawed, although this move filmed appears to be a deliberate kicking move to put the caboose behind the loco.

Locos & freight cars had pockets on the corners of the pilot beam to facilitate the move. How UK stock with buffers would hold a pole in place I don't know ( Wheatley's post above mentions brackets on some stock).

[The Stationmaster]

1930s RCH Standard Rule 110(c).  BR 1950 Rule Book, Rule 110C)

'The movement of vehicles by means of a prop or pole, or by towing with a rope or chain attached to an engine or vehicle moving on an adjacent line, is prohibited except where specially authorised by the Operating Superintendent. '

 

In the 1950 Rule Book the words ' or a road vehicle, ' were added before the words 'is prohibited.

 

In both cases the margin note reads 'Propping, tow-roping and chaining'

[iands]

Another example (albeit not in this country) of propelling wagons using a shunting pole. Even more hazardous when you have to negotiate a telegraph pole in the "6ft".

 

 

[Chris Turnbull]

I stand corrected.  Just checked my 1950 Rule Book and Mike The Stationmaster is, as always, right.

 

Sackcloth and ashes time...

 

Chris Turnbull

[Invicta1958]

Many thanks for all your replies! As dangerous as I expected...

[pH]

8 hours ago, F-UnitMad said:

Locos & freight cars had pockets on the corners of the pilot beam to facilitate the move. 

Poling pockets were fitted on some second generation diesels into the 1960s. Here’s an example on a GP40, built in 1966:

 

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/mkt/mkt0177d01.jpg

 

(It’s the circular structure on the back face of the step well.)

[Talltim]

The PRR went so far as to build poling cars https://www.davevinci.com/PRR Class S5 Poling Car.pdf

Edited November 12, 2020 by Talltim

[Respite]

The practice of propping was used at Ladysmith Washery at Whitehaven by the NCB. This was used to propel wagons on an adjacent siding if the loco couldn't get behind the wagons to do so. A wire rope was tried but this of course broke and whipped round so wasn't tried again. A search for Ladysmith Washery will produce images of locos carrying a large pole on the front running board or across the rear buffers. The term at Ladysmith was 'poleing off'

[F-UnitMad]

On 12/11/2020 at 13:53, iands said:

Another example (albeit not in this country) of propelling wagons using a shunting pole. Even more hazardous when you have to negotiate a telegraph pole in the "6ft".

 

 

My kinda track!!!

[Michael Hodgson]

The rules I have seen about this subject tended to say it was only allowed where authorised (this would be where you couldn't really do it any other way) and then only by experienced men.  Quite how the men were supposed to gain this experience if they weren't allowed to do it was never explained.  I think of tow-roping as practice found more in the North of Scotland rather than being common in England.

 

I have done tow-roping in O gauge!  Its easier than trying to model horse shunting.

 

 

[F-UnitMad]

The late John Allison used to do tow-roping - he called it "cable shunting" - on his O Scale layout 'Selbury Works Sidings', in the early 1980s. There was an article & photo of it in RM at the time, but I saw it myself at several Shows.

[The Stationmaster]

10 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

The rules I have seen about this subject tended to say it was only allowed where authorised (this would be where you couldn't really do it any other way) and then only by experienced men.  Quite how the men were supposed to gain this experience if they weren't allowed to do it was never explained.  I think of tow-roping as practice found more in the North of Scotland rather than being common in England.

 

I have done tow-roping in O gauge!  Its easier than trying to model horse shunting.

 

 

Various unusual forms of shunting were 'only to be carried out by experienced men' the other being fly shunting (an extremely dangerous way of moving wagons) and there often notices where capstans were used imploring that only the experienced should be using them.

 

The route to becoming 'experienced' was relatively straightforward - anybody going into a shunting grade would start as a Shunter working under the direction of a Head Shunter and similarly at the smaller places where Porters got involved in a limited amount of shunting work they would be working under (most likely)  a Guard or possibly a Travelling Shunter or even a Leading Porter.  Thus in that way experience in shunting work would be gradually built up over several years in the grade before progressing.  Hence one of my uncles did several years as a Goods Porter before moving for a Shunter's job.

 

Don't forget also that many railway staff had to move about in order to gain promotion although for Conciliation Grade staff their Promotional Areas were relatively small by modern standards (but moving 50 miles fora new job as late as the early 1960s could still be a big change).  And promotion tended often to be slow unless someone was prepared to move a lot further to an Exhausted Vacancy where nobody in a particular Promotional Area had applied for it so it was opened to men from other Promotional Areas to apply.  But slow promotion was normally the case - talking to one of my Yard Chargemen in the mid 1970s and he had been made a Shunter on the day I had been born so had been in the job of shunting for over a quarter of a century albeit in several different places;  that was how men gained experience.

 

By the mid to late 1960s it was all changing although that had really begun in the 1950s as railway jobs became less attractive with better paid work increasingly available outside and often not involving shift work.   A good example was the recruitment of Guards where by mid 1960s they were increasingly coming from different routes compared with the previous internal promotion process and by the first  half of the 1970s they were more or less exclusively recruited off the streets particularly for freight jobs.

 

[The Johnster]

I was myself recruited 'off the sttreets' as a freight guard at Canton in 1970 exactly as you have just outlined, Mike.  In 1969 the 'system' had changed, in association (I believe) with the single manning agreements, with freight guards becoming 'traincrew' and booking on and off duty at traincrew depots or signing on points with the locomen so as to be able to be 'acting secondman' for the light engine movement from the shed to pick up the train, up to a distance of 15 miles from the shed (or any distance returning light engine to it).  Previously they had been more associated with 'Traffic' and booked on at goods depots, preparing the train prior to the arrival of the locomotive.  So, there had been a sort of natural progession from shunter>head shunter>freight guard.  By the time the men progressed to being guards in charge of a train they were already very experienced railwaymen who knew the job backwards and could cope with any situation that was thrown at them, and only needed to acquire route knowledge. 

 

We were thrown in at the deep end as fully fledged freight guards after a 6 week induction course in all aspects of freight and passenger working and procedures, including Severn Tunnel working.  It was said, maybe with some justification, that it was virtually impossible not to pass our from this course, such was the manpower shortage, and it must be said that some of my contemporaries were a pretty useless bunch. but most of those did not last long in the job.  The rest of us very quickly realised that we had to make a go of it to gain acceptance from the drivers, who were rightly scoptical of our abilities.  I was very glad to have been able to pick up some of the basics from 3 months prior to the course at Penarth North Curve Yard, behind Ninian Park Halt, a typical small freight yard with a coal depot (Virgil Street) attached, which handled traffic for trip jobs with an 08 to Ferry Road and Ely Paper Mill, as well as PW dept. work prior to weekend occupations.  This was both extremely instructive and enormous fun!

 

My previous life as an enthusiast gave me no appreciable understanding of grass roots railway operation whatsoever, though I did have a head start in MAS and semaphore signalling and block regulations.  It was a world of sights, sounds, and smells both familiar and new to me as I got hands on with it.  We were regarded as 'back cab jockeys' by the drivers and old hand guards, and I could understand their point of view and resentment.  I had the advantage perhaps of an established interest in the job, and those of us who took an interest (and inevitably became enthusiasts themselves, though this was not a thing to boast about) thrived.  I recall one sceptical driver asking me how many wagons the up loop at Pandy, between Abergavenni and Pontrilas, take; I told him 'as many as you want, driver, on their sides down the embankment', the correct answer as there wasn't a loop at Pandy.  He was single manned and I was secondmanning him to Long Dyke for a class 8 coal train, 8M01 Long Dyke>Warrington, prepare train and work to Hereford for relief, so I could sympathise to an extent with his reluctance to work such a train over this switchback of a road at night with a man he had never worked with before and who he had every reason to assume would had no idea what he was doing or where he was.

 

On a fully fitted back cab job he would have had no cause for concern in the normal run of events, and would have been able to instruct the useless jockey to protect in rear if assistance was needed from that direction and supervise should a vehicle have to be put off anywhere.  He could, and usually did, instruct the guard to ride in the front cab with him to keep an eye on him.  We gained approval by doing the job properly, or lack of it by not doing the job properly, and a few weeks later when I overheard the above driver asking for me when his rostered guards was, shall we say, 'differently competent'*, I knew I was on top of the job!

 

But there was a lot of resentment to overcome and some men never accepted that we were not personally to blame for having been pulled off the street to a role that would have previously been given to men with decades of experience.  The footplate grades in particular regarded the NUR's acceptance of 'back cab' guards as a stab in the back that had led to redundancies among firemen and an extension of the 'dead men's' shoes system of promotion that prevented them from progressing to better work through their links, or from moving home from sheds they had had to transfer to in order to progress into driver's jobs.  I knew men who had been drivers away from home who had come back to secondmens' posts, not even passed secondmens', and the resultant loss of pay.

 

Morale among staff was abysmal in 1970; there had been a decade of massive changes, all of which had led to redundancies and less dead men's shoes to step into.  The speed at which promotion became available was glacial, and had become that of continental drift, wages were low compared to outside industry, traincrew hours were dreadful and conditions, especially in brake vans, would have been snubbed by Victorian railwaymen, a result of guards booking on at drivers's signing on points and not being able to look after them.  Some yards tried to maintain standard, buy were low on manpower themselves, and some had a particularly unhelpful attitude as a part of their culture, he said, glancing significantly in a direction but not mentioning MARGAM by name.

 

British Rail was a national joke, and we were the public face, and hence the butt, of it (thanks a lot, 70s media).  Losses were high, and public perception derisive, not helped by a series of strikes and other action by the NUR but particularly by the drivers' union, ASLEF, led by a man called Ray Buckton who was the personification of a Daily Mail cartonn union thug, incapable of expressing himself in anything other than the language of soviet committee jargon.   Before the Age Of The Train was the age of Serpell...  The tide turned with the introduction of the HST, an achievement of which we were all very proud, 125mph on ordinary track, the only high speed, air conditioned, tinted window, electrically heated, air suspension, double glazed, sound proofed train in the world that did not surcharge for tickets.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[2251]

The 1900 Act did not directly prohibit or regulate particular practices. By section 1(1) it empowered the Board of Trade to "make such rules as they think fit with respect to any of the subjects mentioned in the schedule to this Act, with the object of reducing or removing the dangers and risks incidental to railway service" (much of the rest of the Act was taken up with provisions as to the exercise of that rule-making power). 

 

The Schedule then lists twelve matters:

 

"1 Brake levers on both sides of waggons.

2 Labelling waggons.

3 Movement of waggons by propping and tow roping.

4 Steam or other power brakes on engines.

5 Lighting of stations or sidings where shunting operations are frequently carried on after dark.

6 Protection of point rods and signal wires, and position of ground levers working points.

7 Position of offices and cabins near working lines.

8 Marking of fouling points.

9 Construction and protection of gauge glasses.

10 Arrangement of tool boxes and water gauges on engines.

11 Working of trains without brake vans upon running lines beyond the limits of stations.

12 Protection to permanent way men when relaying or repairing permanent way."

 

The use of the word "Movement" in para 3 is important: clearly what this concerns is moving wagons by tow rope or pole, not the propping open of wagon doors, etc.

[2251]

I have now located a copy of the rules -- the Prevention of Accidents Rules 1902 (SR&O 1902/616), although they were amended on various occasion.

 

Rule 2 provides that:

 

"After the expiration of twelve months from the coming into operation of these rules, the movement of vehicles by means of a prop or pole, being the operation commonly known as 'propping' shall not take place, except in cases where no other reasonably practicable means can be provided for dealing with the traffic.

 

After the expiration of the same period, tow-roping, that is to say, the effecting the movement of vehicles on a railway by means of towing with a rope or chain, attached to a locomotive, or a vehicle moving on an adjacent line, shall not be allowed, except in cases where no other reasonably practicable means can be provided for dealing with the traffic.

 

The North Wales Narrow gauge Railway Company is exempted from the operation of this rule so far as relates to tow-roping."

 

The rules came into operation on 8 August 1902.

[The Johnster]

The propping open of coal wagon doors, off topic a bit but when did that ever stop me, was very common and quite dangerous practice, but as it was carried on by coal merchants rather than railway staff, would not have been commented on in railway rule books or appendices.  I remember seeing it at Virgil Street coal yard in Cardiff in the 70s.  I could see why they did it, as it held the door level to be used as both a working platform to unload the wagon, and as a working table to bag and weight the coal from.  Some merchants went to the trouble of building X frames to do this with, which were much safer and more reliable.  The danger was mostly of injury rather than death, broken legs in particular and sometimes head injuryiesas the door clouted the man it had just precipitiated to the ground in the head as it, too, obeyed Newton's first law...  That said, broken legs and head injuries are pretty serious, and could easily put a man out of work for the rest of his life.  This is bad enough in the Welfare State world, but prior to that meant genuine ruination.

[The Stationmaster]

17 hours ago, The Johnster said:

The propping open of coal wagon doors, off topic a bit but when did that ever stop me, was very common and quite dangerous practice, but as it was carried on by coal merchants rather than railway staff, would not have been commented on in railway rule books or appendices. 

Railway staff were of course involved in loading and unloading open wagons and could well be involved in overseeing work carried out by coal merchants and their employees.  Thus there was reference to the prohibition of propping wagon doors in the GWR General Appendix up until 1960.   Other companies might have been different.

 

It was not carried on into either the new GA or the WR Regional Appendix from late in 1960 so was probably transferred to the green cover handbooks for terminal staff  but I don't have many of those so can't check if that was the case.

[The Johnster]

Railway staff of course also unloaded coal wagons; loco coal comes to mind but there was also removal of coal from wagons crippled and stopped in transit, so rules would apply to those operations, but by and large railway staff were I think more 'safety orientated' than some coal merchants.  Merchants could of course use the flat bed of the delivery lorry as an unloading platform, and for weighing and bagging; I remember seeing this as a child at Salisbury Road goods depot in Cathays, Cardiff, when I was taken with mother to order coal from our merchant's nearby office and shown around by a kindly worker.  I was about 8 or maybe 9 when this happened, so it would have been 1960 or so.  But once the lorry had gone out on delivery, work had to continue and it is at this point that the problem arose.  Our merchant had a 'proper' trestle framed support for wagon doors, but I was shown doors held up by single planks by less conscienious merchants and told they were dangerous.  I saw the method used again a decade later at Virgil Street.  It was sometimes difficult to impress the folly of the practice on men who had been doing it for years without incident, but I witnessed an accident caused by this at Virgil Street, fortunately this one resulting in no more than concussion and a sprained ankle to the victim, who had to be dug out from several cwt of coal.

 

Our 'across the back lane' neighbour Mr Newman, 'Uncle Tubs', worked for the railway and was a valuable source of information (and 'Rail News'); his office was in the old Queen Street station then Marland House and his job, or part of it at any rate, was to chase up errant empty coal wagons and expidite their return to collieries, which were heavily dependent on a continual and adequate supply of empties; presumably he was involved with demurrgae charges as well.  I was thus aware at an early age of the problem of finding empties against a backdrop of merchants, industrial customers, and indeed collieries when they could get away with it, using loaded wagons as storage, these of course becoming siding blockers and losing the railway money (demurrage was not always the easiest thing to collect), one of the problems successfully addressed by Beeching and the cessation of the railways' 'common carrier' obligations.  This initiative largely backfired and the customers increasingly turned to road haulage, which was happening at the time anyway.

 

 

[Fat Controller]

22 hours ago, The Johnster said:

The propping open of coal wagon doors, off topic a bit but when did that ever stop me, was very common and quite dangerous practice, but as it was carried on by coal merchants rather than railway staff, would not have been commented on in railway rule books or appendices.  I remember seeing it at Virgil Street coal yard in Cardiff in the 70s.  I could see why they did it, as it held the door level to be used as both a working platform to unload the wagon, and as a working table to bag and weight the coal from.  Some merchants went to the trouble of building X frames to do this with, which were much safer and more reliable.  The danger was mostly of injury rather than death, broken legs in particular and sometimes head injuryiesas the door clouted the man it had just precipitiated to the ground in the head as it, too, obeyed Newton's first law...  That said, broken legs and head injuries are pretty serious, and could easily put a man out of work for the rest of his life.  This is bad enough in the Welfare State world, but prior to that meant genuine ruination.

I saw a photograph, published on here, of a 21-tonner being unloaded somewhere 'up North'. The vehicle wasn't a conventional one, but one of those built for Swansea Corporation to supply Tir John power station. Unlike most 21-tonners, it didn't have side doors, but instead, end-doors at both ends. The merchant had borrowed a couple of sleepers, and placed them under the open, top-hinged door. Quite how he got them there, I hesitate to think. As for shovelling the load out with a large steel door above the coal-mens' heads.....

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

I saw a photograph, published on here, of a 21-tonner being unloaded somewhere 'up North'. The vehicle wasn't a conventional one, but one of those built for Swansea Corporation to supply Tir John power station. Unlike most 21-tonners, it didn't have side doors, but instead, end-doors at both ends. The merchant had borrowed a couple of sleepers, and placed them under the open, top-hinged door. Quite how he got them there, I hesitate to think. As for shovelling the load out with a large steel door above the coal-mens' heads.....

It was a practice which, I unfortuantely, went on for years and I think the only way it could really be stopped was by resorting to going round and physically stopping it.   And then as soon as your back was turned ...  ...  Getting demurrage sorted wasn't all that difficult because there was good evidence that was hard to argue with although getting the coal merchants to cough up wasn't so easy.  Far worse was measuring and agreeing with them what was known as Excess Space where they had spread coal put to ground beyond the area they had contracted for coal storage although that really became a problem after they ceased to receive coal by rail.

 

The best offices at Cardiff Queen Street were the former TVR HQ offices on the cornet of Queen Street and Station Terrace and a lovely looking stone building from the outside but by 1967 when I was based in there for several weeks a fairly empty and dusty place as just about everyone had been moved out of the main building to to Marland House by then.  

 

The style of the building matched the facade of Queen St station along Station Terrace and that also had offices in the upper floors.  It's visible in a picture in the article below and the team I was working with was based in the almost turret shaped section on one of the front corners on the first floor - excellent views in several directions.  It was a great shame that it, and the whole frontage of Queen Street station was demolished but even by the late 1960s the offices were very dated and and no doubt expensive to keep maintained.

 

https://www.outnews.co.uk/the-lost-railway-stations-of-cardiff/