USATC S160 2-8-0’s

[TravisM]

I’ve been offered a HO scale Roco SNCF USATC S160 2-8-0 at a really good price and I was wondering how long they ran on French rails before either moving on or retired after active service life.  I have in my minds eye, a S160 and 141R slogging up and down a French secondary line with a heavy mineral train.  Well, I can dream 

[Pacific231G]

Not very long at all I'm afraid. A large number of them were used by the allied military in France after D-Day to help supply the advancing front and after liberation 558 of these were lent to the SNCF to help deal with its huge shortage of motive power (only 6000 out of the pre war 17000 locos were available in working order) as so many locos had been destroyed, damaged, sabotaged or requisitioned to Germany.

Of the 558 S160s on loan to the  SNCF, 121 were going to form SNCF class 140U in 1946 but the renumbering was never carried out. This was because the French railway authorities (before liberation in London and N. Africa) had already decided that the S160s  weren't powerful enough or suitable for SNCF's longer term post war requirements. Preliminary discussions with N. American loco builders had begun even before D-Day, starting with a delegation to Baldwin and Alco early in 1944 from representatives of the French N. African railways,  on what became the 1323 strong 141R class . These were over 40% more powerful than the S160s and were delivered remarkably quickly with the first arriving in Marseilles in November 1945. As the 141Rs  flooded in, the need for the S160s disappeared and they were returned to the USATC or passed on. Many of the were taken into service by other railways in liberated Europe and beyond but not France. 

 

So, your double headed heavy mineral train with an S160 and a 141R is not impossible but it would probably have to be set in 1946 - an interesting period as France's railways were being rebuilt and with any intact secondary lines probably providing diversionary routes around damaged sections of main line. The S160 would  still be in USATC markings. If it 's a good offer I'd be tempted even if it has to be a rule 1 locomotive.

 

It was a different story for some of the 382 USATC 0-6-0 tank locos that also went over in large quantities after D-Day for use in docks and shunting. 77 of these were purchased from the USATC and became SNCF class 030TU. They werent withdrawn until 1965-1970 often being used as dock or MPD shunters. They were essentially the same locos that became the "dock tanks" of the S.R. where they also had a long and successful life.

 

(information from my own recent research and Dr. John Davies SNCF Locomotive List 1938-1975)

Edited November 14, 2020 by Pacific231G

[TravisM]

6 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

So, your double headed heavy mineral train with an S160 and a 141R is not impossible but it would probably have to be set in 1946 - an interesting period as France's railways were being rebuilt and with any intact secondary lines probably providing diversionary routes around damaged sections of main line. The S160 would  still be in USATC markings. If it 's a good offer I'd be tempted even if it has to be a rule 1 locomotive.

 

(information from my own recent research and Dr. John Davies SNCF Locomotive List 1938-1975)

It’s a shame that they never lasted long after liberation as information on the S160 is sketchy at best regarding their use and disposal once hostilities ended.  We’re they based system wide or in certain geographical areas?

 

So reading between the lines from what you’ve said, 1944 - 1946 was their length of service on SNCF or did they last a bit longer?  Shame they didn’t last until the early 50’s.  He offered me the loco for £275 which sounds reasonable given the prices on eBay.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I don't know the position system wide. But I do know that there were some at Narbonne.

[Allegheny1600]

If that’s the full sound, bells and whistles loco, I’d take it and enjoy a really superb model!

 I haven’t got one myself but if you read Richard @47137 blog, he has an excellent review of this loco here: 

It really does sound like a model that anyone would enjoy.

Cheers,

John

[rue_d_etropal]

1946 would be an interesting year to model, as featured in classic film 'La Bataille de Rail'. The range of stock still around then is immence

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Battle_of_the_Rails

 

[johnofwessex]

I am told that the S160's were designed for a life of about 90 days and keeping them running can be a nightmare

[brianusa]

We were also told the the UK WDs also had a short shelf life but they lasted remarkably well into BR days and beyond.

     Brian.

[47137]

On 13/11/2020 at 23:43, jools1959 said:

I’ve been offered a HO scale Roco SNCF USATC S160 2-8-0 at a really good price and I was wondering how long they ran on French rails before either moving on or retired after active service life.  I have in my minds eye, a S160 and 141R slogging up and down a French secondary line with a heavy mineral train.  Well, I can dream 

 

You could buy the S160 and enjoy it as a model, and then do the research later. It really is a fabulous thing.

 

- Richard.

[Pacific231G]

14 hours ago, johnofwessex said:

I am told that the S160's were designed for a life of about 90 days and keeping them running can be a nightmare

 

13 hours ago, brianusa said:

We were also told the the UK WDs also had a short shelf life but they lasted remarkably well into BR days and beyond.

     Brian.

The Liberty ships were also considered to be "for the duration only" but though about 200 were lost during the war, the majority of them operated succesfully until the late 1960s and played an important role in the re-establishment of merchant shipping for many countries - Greece in particular- in the post war decades. 

 

Though SNCF got rid of all the S160s they'd been using by 1947, mainly because they were getting a more powerful Mikado from the same manufacturers modified to suit French conditions (left hand drive, smoke deflectors and, for the second batch, kylchap exhausts), in the countries they ended up in the S160s were still working into the 1960s, 1970s and in some cases for  far longer. According to Wiki the last in commercial service was at a coal mine in China withdrawn in 1997.  

 

My impression is that, for both the Liberty ships and the S160s, one reason they were expected to have short working life was the much wider adoption of the "short cut" of welding rather than rivetting. There were problems with welded construction of Liberty ships and similarly mass produced T2 tankers. These were sometimes due to poor welding but more because cracks could propagate to the point of complete hull failure until crack stopping measures were introduced. 

There's a good overview of this here. 

https://eng-resources.uncc.edu/failurecasestudies/other-failure-cases/liberty-ship-fatigue-failures/

 

The 141Rs were also of largely welded construction and they were entirely successful, well liked by their crews and remarkably long lasting. They incorporated features like roller bearings that wouldn't have been applied to an "austerity" design and, along with the140Cs*  (built mainly in Brtiain during WW1)  these "brave Americains" ended up being the last SNCF steam locos in commercial service. 

 

*The 140Cs  were nicknamed "les Anglais" by French railwaymen which, given that the majority of them were built in Glasgow, was perhaps unfortunate.

Edited November 15, 2020 by Pacific231G

[TravisM]

2 hours ago, 47137 said:

 

You could buy the S160 and enjoy it as a model, and then do the research later. It really is a fabulous thing.

 

- Richard.

 

I think I'm a bit too late as someone offered him £350 for it, so he snapped his hand off.  I'm not disappointed, even though it's a wonderful model, I think it would have in all likelihood remained in it's box, keeping the shelf warm 

[Johann Marsbar]

21 minutes ago, jools1959 said:

 

I think I'm a bit too late as someone offered him £350 for it, so he snapped his hand off.  I'm not disappointed, even though it's a wonderful model, I think it would have in all likelihood remained in it's box, keeping the shelf warm 

 

Scograil seem to be doing the sound fitted one for that sort of figure, brand new...

https://www.scograil.co.uk/roco-72163-ho-gauge-sncf-140-v-steam-locomotive---dcc-sound-11827-p.asp

 

 

 

[TravisM]

7 minutes ago, Johann Marsbar said:

 

Scograil seem to be doing the sound fitted one for that sort of figure, brand new...

https://www.scograil.co.uk/roco-72163-ho-gauge-sncf-140-v-steam-locomotive---dcc-sound-11827-p.asp

 

 

 

Thanks for the heads up but it’s still more than I’m willing to pay considering it will probably sit in it’s box and only appear from time to time.

[47137]

13 minutes ago, jools1959 said:

Thanks for the heads up but it’s still more than I’m willing to pay considering it will probably sit in it’s box and only appear from time to time.

 

The model comes in a display case, inside the box. So you could still have it on show all the time ...

 

- Richard.

[Johann Marsbar]

1 hour ago, jools1959 said:

Thanks for the heads up but it’s still more than I’m willing to pay considering it will probably sit in it’s box and only appear from time to time.

They were doing the basic, analogue one for £175 at the beginning of this year, and I did spend some time looking at it in their shop and contemplating buying one!

Hopefully someone will bring out an OO version, one day.......

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

I was looking at some DB decapods and boggling at the price...

 

Then I saw the price of the new LNWR Precedent which only has six wheels and is tiny and thought, you know what 250 notes is fine for a big old dec after all

[rue_d_etropal]

Quote

Hopefully someone will bring out an OO version, one day.......

someone did asjk me a while back if I was planning a 3D printed model. It is something I am still considering, I do have a scale drawing somewhere.

[readingtype]

Gratuitous photos of S160s...

 

Look how they had to restrict the cylinder diameter to accommodate that most civilised feature of British railway practice, the high level platform (nobody thought of low-level carriage floors until later). This is 5197

 

 

Here's Roco's model just in case anyone needed a refresher. I will repaint the 'brass' parts on the valve gear and motion one day. Speaking of brass, an etched USATC owner's plate (the red one) and Superheater Company patent notice (the black one) would finish off the smokebox nicely too.

 

[t-b-g]

On 15/11/2020 at 13:25, Johann Marsbar said:

They were doing the basic, analogue one for £175 at the beginning of this year, and I did spend some time looking at it in their shop and contemplating buying one!

Hopefully someone will bring out an OO version, one day.......

 

One RMWebber is well on with a rather super quality 4mm scratchbuilt model but I will leave it up to them to break cover as and when they wish to.

[rue_d_etropal]

I wonder what chassis could be used. The wheelbase is shorter than an 8F, and is actually close to that of a 9F with one wheel removed - as a 2-10-0 version also proposed?

From a modelling pont of view in OO, adapting an old Hornby tender driven loco chassis with 8F cylinders/valve gear might be possible. A bogie tender drive might be more tricky. Could the cylinders on the 9F be moved down a bit(or replaced), as rest of motion is similar.

 

[47137]

2 hours ago, rue_d_etropal said:

...

A bogie tender drive might be more tricky. 

...

 

For those who haven't seen the Roco model, its tender has a rigid chassis with the four outer wheels driven. So the tender runs as a 0-2-4-2-0 or a A-2-A depending on your preferred notation. Photo here:

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blogs/entry/22962-usatc-s160-roco/

 

I would like to think the same technique would work in a larger scale.

 

- Richard.

[rue_d_etropal]

I was thinking that . It is quite common for N gauge. A shortish 6 wheel chassis or motor bogie with an extra wheel maybe. I think the LNER type 8 wheel tender  would be too short.