Modelling a Train Order Board - questions!!!

[F-UnitMad]

I would like to model a classic old Train Order Board for my O Scale layout, but as they were when 'disused' once they were made obsolete. To that end I found this little gem of a kit from Grandt Line, plus some 1/8" square wood to use for the post, in my local model shop a while back.

On closer inspection the Order Board is a lower quadrant type, when I'd have prefered upper, but I have a few questions that have been difficult to research online, so hopefully you chaps here will be able to help!!

 

Were upper- & lower-quadrants 'regional', more likely in one State or area than another, and would each railroad just stick to either type, one or the other? 

How high would the post be, roughly?

On disused upper-quadrant types I've seen photos where the actual boards were removed from the mechanism. Was this also done with lower-quadrants, just leaving the lense housings up?

Would the signal lenses have been removed as well, or just left in place?

Finally, could I convert this kit to upper-quadrant, by adding a curved section to the signals, and leaving off the boards, or was the dessign of each fundamentally different due to the lense housings?

 

Thanks so much for any help & advice!!  

[dave1905]

The shape of the blade, how it was painted and whether it was upper or lower varied by railroad.  There wasn't necessarily a "regional" standard other than an individual railroad had standards and operated in a region.

 

The height of the post varied, about the same as regular signal, tall enough to be seen over a train, so 15-20 ft.

 

If a signal is retired, they put out a general order taking it out of service and it doesn't matter which position its in.  They will cut the power to the lights so they won't light up and will generally remove the blades so that no-one will mistake it for a signal that is in service.  The only reason they would remove the lens is if they need them for another location, somebody took them as a souvenir or if the sun could hit them in a way they would appear to be lit.

 

If you are going to model an out of service signal, and remove the blade, then really what difference does it make whether its upper or lower quadrant? Its out of service.  If you want an upper quadrant signal, go to Shapeways and you can buy O scale upper quadrant  train order signals.

[dave1905]

This looks like your signal, in service:

 

[F-UnitMad]

Thanks Dave, really very helpful stuff, thankyou.

I guess I like the look of upper-quadrant more because they are so different in design, as well as purpose, to anything on this side of The Puddle. Upper quadrant semaphores in the UK only went to 45° or so, not near vertical like an order board, and with the curved brackets pointing skywards, even with blades 'removed' it'd be very clear what the thing is supposed to be. (On my layout many things are more representational than perfect replicas!!)

I'll look on Shapeways, but I have a feeling my wallet might have a heart attack!!

[Regularity]

2 hours ago, F-UnitMad said:

Upper quadrant semaphores in the UK only went to 45° or so, not near vertical like an order board, and with the curved brackets pointing skywards, even with blades 'removed' it'd be very clear what the thing is supposed to be.

Other than where they didn’t, for example the GWR owned Ealing-Shepherd’s Bush line, which is not the western end of the Central Line, where 3-position semaphores were installed.

(Notice also that the line was electrified initial with a centre third-rail, and no fourth rail.)

Source: page 3 of https://www.lurs.org.uk/02 may 17 THE LONDON ELECTRIC TRAIN.pdf

 

[Northroader]

It’s interesting how the spectacles are arranged so that the lamp to light them is perched on top of the post, which allows it to light up the spectacles for arms in both directions. If they were like a British signal at the side of the post you couldn’t do this. I think the indications are vertical clear, no orders; 45 degrees slow to pick up orders; horizontal stop for orders.  In some places you could find the same signals used as block stop /go signals. Lines also varied the style of painting, red with a vertical stripe as per British semaphore was common, but you could get plain red, and the Rock used yellow with a black back, and there were white, black or silver posts. They were used until radio communication came in, so that the despatcher could be in direct contact with the train crew, rather than dictating over the telephone to the local agent to hand over paper copies. I suppose post height varied with the need to get clear visibility, in places there were just silly little paddles mounted close to the depot awning, and most were right outside the agents office at the depot, with upside down levers hanging down from the ceiling of the office, to outside linkage.

heres one I made earlier with a brass rod post, and commercial ladder etchings,

 

and here’s a link:https://railroadsignals.us/signals/sem/

Edited November 14, 2020 by Northroader

[F-UnitMad]

1 hour ago, Regularity said:

Other than where they didn’t, for example the GWR owned Ealing-Shepherd’s Bush line, which is not the western end of the Central Line, where 3-position semaphores were installed.

(Notice also that the line was electrified initial with a centre third-rail, and no fourth rail.)

Source: page 3 of https://www.lurs.org.uk/02 may 17 THE LONDON ELECTRIC TRAIN.pdf

 

Those signals look very American! 

 

Well a pleasant evening's dabbling has done the deed:

Portway Center has a disused lower quadrant Order Board.

I have assumed the access ladder and control rods have been removed as well as the blades, partly because I don't have any suitable ladder, and also I'm not entirely sure how the rods would 'end' at the base; obviously some kind of bracket & lever arrangement. But as penance for such a slack attitude I have shaved off the molded pips, and drilled out the five holes on the signal arms where each blade would have been bolted in - edit:- which, of course, utterly fails to show in the photo!!

Plenty of long grass & undergrowth has still to be added, especially along the siding, & the main line has still to be ballasted.

Edited November 14, 2020 by F-UnitMad

[F-UnitMad]

I did find - eventually* - upper-quadrant 1:48 scale boards on Shapeways; a set of 5 was about £9, but the shipping offered was also £9..!!! 

 

* all depends on what you search for!! In the end "1:48 semaphore" got me to what I was after. Shame about the shipping cost!!!

[dave1905]

In most semaphore train order boards the post is in line with the train order office since the linkage that operated the blades was mechanical operated by the train order operator.    Rather than being out in the parking lot, the mast would be in front of the TO office in the depot.

 

The train order signals also varied by railroad by how many colors were used and whether they were normally at stop or normally at clear.

[F-UnitMad]

6 hours ago, dave1905 said:

Rather than being out in the parking lot, the mast would be in front of the TO office in the depot.

Point taken Dave, and order board duly moved.

[dave1905]

Looks good!

[Western Star]

Jordan, @F-UnitMad, a question from the back of the class.

 

What is the purpose of a Train Order Board?

 

Your photos and others above seem to show just a signal post with the remains of UQ signal arms...  so how does that provide the TOB?

 

Sorry, there is little light at the back of the class and I did not realise that there were two questions - please consider moving the seats out of the tunnel.

 

regards, Graham

 

 

{ps In the books by OWL on the Norfolk there are several photos of a railway employee holding a forked stick which carries some paper in the fork, presumably this is the manual version of your signal}

Edited November 17, 2020 by Western Star

[Keith Addenbrooke]

47 minutes ago, Western Star said:

Jordan, @F-UnitMad, a question from the back of the class.

 

What is the purpose of a Train Order Board?

 

Your photos and others above seem to show just a signal post with the remains of UQ signal arms...  so how does that provide the TOB?

 

Sorry, there is little light at the back of the class and I did not realise that there were two questions - please consider moving the seats out of the tunnel.

 

regards, Graham

 

 

{ps In the books by OWL on the Norfolk there are several photos of a railway employee holding a forked stick which carries some paper in the fork, presumably this is the manual version of your signal}

 

Hi there, I may not have this correct (and there will be details and variations of course) but my basic understanding is as follows if it helps:

 

A Train Order is (was) a written instruction telegraphed or telephoned from a Central Dispatcher to Agents at Stations along a line, which would then be written out (and confirmed) before being passed to the crews of passing trains.

 

A Train Order Signal would be set so that an approaching train would know whether it needed to slow down (or stop) to receive a Train Order.  I think the O. Winston Link photos you refer to would show an Agent in the act of passing a Train Order to an Engineer.

 

Reasons for Train Orders could be many and varied, but the basic need for them arises because of the long distances involved in US railroading that would mean the kind of Tablet system used in the UK for line possession could result in horrendous delays.  Additionally, trains running as Extras or with additional Sections following couldn’t be covered by the kind of working timetables used in the UK.

 

Of course, if I’ve got this all wrong, I’ll be joining you at the back of the class - save us a seat.  Keith.

[dave1905]

Keith has it basically correct.

 

In the US the distances were so large, the communications were so poor and they needed to accommodate an operations that ran a lot of trains in addition to the scheduled ones, that they needed a system that was flexible and rugged.  

 

The base was the timetable, trains that ran according to a schedule.  On top of that were overlaid "extra" trains that weren't listed on the time table and exceptions to the timetable.  Those situations were handled by train orders.  Written instructions in specific formats that told the trains what, where and when to do things.  The system was set up that if communications failed, the trains had all the instructions they needed to complete their journey.

 

The train order signal was a signal at a train order office that indicated that a train  (or at least a train in that direction) had to pick up orders at that station.  Depending on the type of orders and when they were ready to be delivered, the train might have to stop and get them or the train might be able to pick them up "on the fly".  The train order operator would hand up the orders to the train crew while they train went by the station without stopping.

 

Train order signals were normally a different shape or color than block signals.

 

When radios became common place, when communication became near universal and direct between the dispatcher and crews, the need for an intermediary (train order operator) to relay the instructions went away and train orders were replaced with more flexible systems (track warrants, etc.).  Plus by then CTC, signal systems that authorized the movement of trains became more commonplace.  When I left the UP about 5 years ago, about half the route miles were CTC, about a quarter were track warrants with block signals and the rest were track warrants with no block signals, yard limits or other forms of authority.

Edited November 17, 2020 by dave1905

[dave1905]

The "forked" stick was one of three different styles of train order delivery methods.  There were two "sticks", one that was a hoop and one that was a forked stick.  There was also a "high speed delivery device" that was a bracket with two spring loaded arms.  In any case the orders were folded up and tied with a string and the string hooked on the fork or hoop.  The fork or hoop would be held up and the engineer or conductor would stick out his arm and put it through the fork or hoop and snag the orders with the loop of string around his arm.  On the high speed device the "fork" was held in place by the string and when the orders were snagged, the arms would fold up back against the mast out of the way.  They were used in higher speed and volume areas so the operator didn't have to stand next to the tracks.

 

I have handed up orders using the forked stick.  You hold the stick at the end of the handle and touch the tip of one of the forks to the nearest rail.  That puts you at the right distance from the tracks.  There is also a "front" and "back" to the fork, so you have to have it oriented properly.  Its amazing how big a freight train is coming at you at 30-40 mph when you are standing only about 6 feet from the tracks.

 

There were different types of orders.  Orders that granted authority or didn't grant authority could be handed up on the fly.  Orders that restricted authority had to be signed for, so those weren't handed up the train had to stop and the crew come into the office to sign the orders.

 

There were two general processes for train order signals.  Some railroads kept the signal at stop and only cleared it when a train showed up and there were no orders for that train (or when the office was closed).  Some railroads kept the signal at clear and put it to stop when there was an order for a train in that direction.  There were advantages to both processes.

 

I have one of the forked train order sticks displayed in my train room.  I found it in a storage room in Newport, AR about 15 years after train orders were  retired.

 

Edited November 17, 2020 by dave1905

[F-UnitMad]

Repeating a photo posted on my layout thread, handing up the train orders is what is being

re-enacted here....

Edited November 17, 2020 by F-UnitMad

[Johann Marsbar]

1 hour ago, F-UnitMad said:

Repeating a photo posted on my layout thread, handing up the train orders is what is being

re-enacted here....

 

Thought I recognised that place.......

 

 

Taken through the loco cab window as we arrived in the station!

[F-UnitMad]

2 hours ago, Johann Marsbar said:

Thought I recognised that place.......

I am not at all jealous, in any way whatsoever......      

Edit - What loco were you in? High short hood, green handrails... I guess a BN SD9 ?

 

Interesting photo though as I thought MN&S boxcars were blue.

Edited November 17, 2020 by F-UnitMad

[Johann Marsbar]

10 hours ago, F-UnitMad said:

I am not at all jealous, in any way whatsoever......      

Edit - What loco were you in? High short hood, green handrails... I guess a BN SD9 ?

 

Interesting photo though as I thought MN&S boxcars were blue.

 

This was the train loco used when I went on the line in 2011 ....

 

 

...which, by strange coincidence, turned out to be one that I had photographed in Longmont, Colorado back in April 1983!

 

 

I found the Osceola & St Croix River operation to be an interesting set-up when I visited there in June 2011. It was a line I'd not heard of before, but found out about it online whilst planning a rather monumental 3-week tour by car of IL, MN, WI and IA, during which I ended up driving 3648 miles!

 

The preserved operation operates in both directions from Osceola, so when I booked consecutive trips in both directions, they seemed rather surprised and asked, if I was doing that, would I like to ride in the loco cab!  The southbound trip already had someone travelling in the cab, so I ended up with the northbound run to Dresser.

 

The line itself is still owned by CN, so is maintained to full mainline standards, so they seemed to run the preserved stock rather faster than most preserved US lines I have been to as well, which was a pleasant change.

 

[Keith Addenbrooke]

18 hours ago, F-UnitMad said:

Repeating a photo posted on my layout thread, handing up the train orders is what is being

re-enacted here....

Just wondered, are there any clues as to how the signal operates, as this one isn’t placed in front of the Agent’s Office?

[Johann Marsbar]

26 minutes ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

Just wondered, are there any clues as to how the signal operates, as this one isn’t placed in front of the Agent’s Office?

 

Looking at one of my photos, it gives the impression it is a dummy. I can't see anything mounted on the wooden (telegraph?) pole other than the two signal blades, though there is an electrical box at the bottom and a cable running up the pole...

 

[dave1905]

Its just mounted for effect.

 

Here's what it should look like, you can see the signal mast in front of the depot and the telephone pole on the far end to which the signal is currently mounted:

[Keith Addenbrooke]

3 minutes ago, dave1905 said:

Its just mounted for effect.

 

Here's what it should look like, you can see the signal mast in front of the depot and the telephone pole on the far end to which the signal is currently mounted:

Looks like the arms were longer when it was in use.  I wouldn’t know if there were specified heights for mounting, but it looks from this photo that there’d need to be visibility from beyond the water tower, which that height would give?

[dave1905]

The blades are longer, they are a different shape, they are painted differently.  

 

The TO signal in the modern picture is just a place holder to make it look railroady.  I wouldn't spend too much time trying to "figure out" the modern signal.  They probably had a signal and had a post, so put the signal on the post.  Its also possible the SOO replaced the blades between the 1940's and 1980's when train orders went away.

 

The SOO had different TO signals:

 

 

 

Now the "SOO Line" painted on the roof is a nice touch.

[F-UnitMad]

38 minutes ago, dave1905 said:

Now the "SOO Line" painted on the roof is a nice touch.

I must admit I've not seen that before, but then I've not tended to look at 'Steam Era' photos of the Soo Line anyway. It is a neat touch!!