2038 Portland Bill, and the Newhaven Boat Train

[Bloodnok]

This photo is in my family collection:

The driver in this photo is my Great Grandfather, Thomas Arthur Moody. The family description with this photo was that the occasion was the first boat train after the war.

My dad and I have both done a little digging, and been able to refine that a bit. It appears that the date may actually have been Jan 15th, 1945, so not strictly "after the war", but you can tell why someone might have recorded it that way. The loco is H1 Atlantic 2038 'Portland Bill', and it's the Newhaven boat train specifically.

Am I right in thinking the loco would have been in wartime black at this date? Numbers on the cabside, but no lining...

With Bachmann having announced this exact loco (albeit in Malachite), my Dad is now talking about getting one. I haven't been able to find the repaint date for this loco, but I would guess it went from Olive to Black to Malachite, so it would have received Malachite some time after this photo was taken. Does anyone know when it was repainted?

The next question my Dad is going to ask me is what coaches to put behind it. It seems obvious to try to recommend him something that represents a Newhaven Boat Train of the era, but I'm not looking to spend a fortune or scratchbuild a full set for what's probably going to be a display model with a strict length limitation anyway. Unfortunately, I've not been able to find any information on formations of this train before 1955, which is rather later than we want to model.

What stock should I be looking to put behind this loco to represent a Newhaven Boat Train in the post-war but pre-nationalisation period? I'm guessing it would be Maunsell stock, and probably in Malachite livery, but what type and diagram of coaches? Boat trains were rather unusual in having all three classes, but I'm not sure whether the pre-war boat train sets would have still been available at this time, or whether they would have been pilfered for use elsewhere during the war and this train would thus have been made up of whatever the SR had lying around.

Edited August 11, 2022 by Bloodnok
Fixing the image

[Bloodnok]

A bit more digging.

From here: https://railwaywondersoftheworld.com/newhaven.html
 

Quote

... use on this service their latest and most comfortable type corridor coaches, each weighing 32 or 33 tons, in conjunction with a 12-wheeled Pullman car, so that a 12-coach formation alone brings the weight above the 400-ton mark. The second-class coaches - second-class is still employed on this service, as on the L.N.E.R. Continental trains, to correspond with the second-class that is the chief medium of travel abroad - are usually marshalled on one side of the Pullman car and the first-class coaches on the other. The whole train is vestibuled, and meals and light refreshments are served by the Pullman attendants throughout its length. One or two vans complete the formation.

This description is from 1929, so rather before the period I'm interested in.

But I've also seen a reference (that annoyingly I now can't find again!) that the immediately post-war boat trains were using the same pre-war boat train sets initially. Would this just be the rest of the set, or would that 12 wheel Pullman car still have been in the rake in 1945?

I've also seen a photo of 20003 hauling the Newhaven boat train in 1950 with the first coach clearly being a Carmine/Cream Bulleid Brake Composite, which indicates that whatever the plan was, reality may have differed...

[Oldddudders]

2038 would indeed have been in plain black in 1945, but gained malachite in September 1947. 

 

Coaches have been less easy to get to grips with. 1927 stock for the boat train was not in the usual Southern sets, but a pool of stock, including thirds 2352/3, second brakes 4481/2, seconds 4483-6, firsts 7668-70. In 1938/9 4481/2 were repainted in malachite, but the rest were not. In 1954 all those second class vehicles were downrated to thirds, from which I infer that they may have been removed from boat train service, so I think in 1945 that set would still have been intended for Newhaven. I have no info re Pullmans, but Eardley Sidings would have turned out whatever was available, I suspect. 

 

It appears that initially from 1945, the schedule for the boat train varied, since facilities at Dieppe were war-damaged, and access was thus tidal. 

[keefer]

Don't  know if this helps much or not:

https://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/5644b.html

[Bloodnok]

8 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

2038 would indeed have been in plain black in 1945, but gained malachite in September 1947. 

 

Thanks, that confirms what I thought.

 

8 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

Coaches have been less easy to get to grips with. 1927 stock for the boat train was not in the usual Southern sets, but a pool of stock

With the requirement to shorten/extend the train in response to seasonal demand, that makes sense.
 

8 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

thirds 2352/3, second brakes 4481/2, seconds 4483-6, firsts 7668-70

 

All are recorded as low-window versions, restriction 4, and the brakes being 6 compartment rather than 4 compartment.

<Glares at Hornby>. Did you even make a 6-compartment low-window brake in Malachite? I can find one in Olive, but not Malachite...

 

8 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

In 1938/9 4481/2 were repainted in malachite, but the rest were not.

 

Do you happen to know if/when the others received Malachite? Dad has decided he doesn't want to paint the loco black (apparently it looks nicer in green...), so I think our date just shuffled along a bit to match with the loco.
 

8 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

I have no info re Pullmans, but Eardley Sidings would have turned out whatever was available, I suspect.

 

I haven't dug into the Pullman in any detail, that'd be the next thing to look at...

 

8 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

It appears that initially from 1945, the schedule for the boat train varied, since facilities at Dieppe were war-damaged, and access was thus tidal. 

Interesting. So it would depart at a different time every day. I bet that caused havoc with timetables for everything else...

[Oldddudders]

No other info on coach-painting specifics, sadly. Plenty of olive coaches were simply being re-varnished after the war if in good nick. 

 

Re low-window BTKs, you appear to be right about them not yet appearing in malachite. The nearest I can find are the BR(S) BCKs, 6571 and 6574, both 1926 low-window versions, in R2815 and R4379, the 1957 Schools set and add-on coaches. Because Hornby has made BR(S) green and malachite indistinguishable, these could be stripped of lettering and re-lettered as SR BTKs. Perhaps better than nothing.

[Bloodnok]

2 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

No other info on coach-painting specifics, sadly. Plenty of olive coaches were simply being re-varnished after the war if in good nick. 

 

Re low-window BTKs, you appear to be right about them not yet appearing in malachite. The nearest I can find are the BR(S) BCKs, 6571 and 6574, both 1926 low-window versions, in R2815 and R4379, the 1957 Schools set and add-on coaches. Because Hornby has made BR(S) green and malachite indistinguishable, these could be stripped of lettering and re-lettered as SR BTKs. Perhaps better than nothing.

Given I'd need to be re-doing numbers on doors (and the coach number too), that would probably be a suitable source. I'll keep an eye out for those ones.

[Wickham Green too]

There's a cracking photo of the Newhaven train in 1949 in Mike King's Southern Coaches bible ..... yes it's a bit later than you want, it's hauled by a 'Hornby' and it's painted red and cream but it'll give you an idea of what was used : A 'Continental' Brake at the front  then a 1935-type Corridor Third, two earlier Thirds, a high-window First, three coaches that look like they may be 'Nondescripts', Pullman Car, one more ( Brake ? ) coach and something without cream paint so probably a van. Only the Earlier Thirds and First - and probably the Pullman - are available from Hornby so you might have to resort to Rule 1.