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Speedmatching DCC Sound and Non Sound Fitted Locomotives on the NCE Powercab DCC Controller


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Hi all, 

 

I hope you are all well?

 

I wonder if anyone could help me please?

 

I have a range of UK, OO Gauge locomotives and all of them are DCC Fitted. I currently have Bachmann 21 Pin 36-557 DCC Decoders fitted to most of my locos. I am expanding my fleet next year with some of the Accurascale Class 37s and I expect to fit them with 21 Pin ESU DCC Decoders. I am considering buying a sound fitted 37602 loco to run with them. However, I would be wanting to run the sound fitted 37602 loco with DCC Fitted, but non sound fitted Accurascale Class 37s. I have never speedmatched any locos before and instead I have just created a consist to run more than one loco together. I have looked at and read the NCE Powercab instruction booklet, but I can't find or see anything that says 'speedmatching' or the equivalent. I have searched for some tutorial videos on Youtube and I have found some but they are using different brand locomotives, sound and non sound DCC Decoders, to the ones that I would be using. I figured that whilst this information might be helpful I am unsure if it matters what brand of locomotives, sound and non sound DCC Decoders others are using, the process of which I would be following, or is the process and the settings on the various locos and decoders the same, including sound and non sound decoders? Also, as I can't find the appropriate process and steps to undertake speedmatching with the NCE Powercab in the instruction booklet, please could someone tell me or recommend a tutorial video which is easy to follow and explains step by step on what to do? Because the Accurascale 37s are yet to be released I will be practicing this process using Bachmann locos and Bachmann DCC Decoders. Will the process differ next year when I come to speedmatching Accurascale locos and ESU DCC Decoders? I am assuming that the brand of loco in relation to speedmatching shouldn't make the process any different, but I am thinking that the different DCC Decoders may change the process? 

 

Sorry for the slightly long post and hopefully it will be understandable. 

 

Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated. 

 

Thank you very much in advance. 

 

Kind Regards, 

 

Danny. 

 

 

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Hi Danny,

 

I have done a bit of speed matching with my NCE Powercab using different manufacturers' locos and different decoders.  I have a real mixture of everything!

 

First and foremost advice I can give you is to get yourself a circle of set track, say 2nd radius, as it's so much easier to speed match on that rather than on the layout  or on a section of straight track.  That way you can quickly and easily see when one is catching up or falling behind the other.  I set mine up on a hard floor (Not carpeted!) 

 

Then it's just a question of adjusting the speed CVs.  Take one loco or unit to be your standard one and get it running around the circle.  Then put on the other one and start adjusting  CVs.  I start with maximum speed (CV5) then go on to acceleration (CV3), deacceleration (CV4), mid speed (CV6) and so on.  Be aware some "value" decoders such as TTS don't have so many adjustable speed CVs.

 

The advantage of using a separate circle of track is that you can use "Program On Main" and see the effects as you are adjusting.

 

Trial and error (and patience) I'm afraid,  Of course easy to do a decoder reset f8 to 8 if you totally mess up and need to start again! 

 

EDIT:  I started with an easy one.  A Bachmann Class 150 DMU which I wanted to speed match with a Hornby 153.  I wanted to run them in multiple.

 

The 150 had a Loksound v4 and the 153 had a Hattons non sound decoder.  When I put them on my circle of track the max speed of the 150 was a lot slower than the 153,  So I reduced CV5 on the 153 until they were both going round the circle at the same speed.  Then continuing to use the 150 as the prime one to match to I adjusted CV's 3,4 and 6 on the 153 until both DMUs performed the same.

 

It makes no difference whether the decoder is a sound one or not.  It's how each individual motor responds to the particular decoder that's fitted to it.

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16 hours ago, cravensdmufan said:

Hi Danny,

 

I have done a bit of speed matching with my NCE Powercab using different manufacturers' locos and different decoders.  I have a real mixture of everything!

 

First and foremost advice I can give you is to get yourself a circle of set track, say 2nd radius, as it's so much easier to speed match on that rather than on the layout  or on a section of straight track.  That way you can quickly and easily see when one is catching up or falling behind the other.  I set mine up on a hard floor (Not carpeted!) 

 

Then it's just a question of adjusting the speed CVs.  Take one loco or unit to be your standard one and get it running around the circle.  Then put on the other one and start adjusting  CVs.  I start with maximum speed (CV5) then go on to acceleration (CV3), deacceleration (CV4), mid speed (CV6) and so on.  Be aware some "value" decoders such as TTS don't have so many adjustable speed CVs.

 

The advantage of using a separate circle of track is that you can use "Program On Main" and see the effects as you are adjusting.

 

Trial and error (and patience) I'm afraid,  Of course easy to do a decoder reset f8 to 8 if you totally mess up and need to start again! 

 

EDIT:  I started with an easy one.  A Bachmann Class 150 DMU which I wanted to speed match with a Hornby 153.  I wanted to run them in multiple.

 

The 150 had a Loksound v4 and the 158 had a Hattons non sound decoder.  When I put them on my circle of track the max speed of the 150 was a lot slower than the 153,  So I reduced CV5 on the 153 until they were both going round the circle at the same speed.  Then continuing to use the 150 as the prime one to match to I adjusted CV's 3,4 and 6 on the 153 until both DMUs performed the same.

 

It makes no difference whether the decoder is a sound one or not.  It's how each individual motor responds to the particular decoder that's fitted to it.

 

Hi, 

 

Thank you very much for the reply and all of the help and information. I really appreciate it. 

 

Setting up a separate circuit of track is a great idea. That way it keeps the locos separate to all of the others on the layout. I have seen on tutorials online that when speedmatching people have changed CVs 3, 4, 5 and 6. Are these the only CVs that I should be changing? Also what the are functions of these CVs? I am assuming that these are for speed and momentum. If I do need to reset individual decoders do I need to do CV8 to 8 with just the one loco on the separate circle of track or can I leave multiple locos on the separate circuit and just select them individually in order to reset the decoders? Also, and this may sound like a daft question but after I have changed the CVs and their values for each decoder/loco, do I just put the locos I would like to into a consist, and they should run at the same speed? After I have finished running said locos in a consist, do I then just delete the consist and will the decoders reset back to the original CVs and values that they were before I did the speedmatching, or do I manually need to change the CVs and values back to their original forms after deleting a consist? 

 

Do your 150 and 153 run better together now that they have been speedmatched? 

 

Thank you for confirming that it's about the difference in response from each motor rather that if fitted with sound or not. 

 

Thank you very much in advance. 

 

Kind Regards, 

 

Danny. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, DRS Crewe On A Mission said:

 

Hi, 

 

Thank you very much for the reply and all of the help and information. I really appreciate it. 

 

Setting up a separate circuit of track is a great idea. That way it keeps the locos separate to all of the others on the layout. I have seen on tutorials online that when speedmatching people have changed CVs 3, 4, 5 and 6. Are these the only CVs that I should be changing? Also what the are functions of these CVs? I am assuming that these are for speed and momentum. If I do need to reset individual decoders do I need to do CV8 to 8 with just the one loco on the separate circle of track or can I leave multiple locos on the separate circuit and just select them individually in order to reset the decoders? Also, and this may sound like a daft question but after I have changed the CVs and their values for each decoder/loco, do I just put the locos I would like to into a consist, and they should run at the same speed? After I have finished running said locos in a consist, do I then just delete the consist and will the decoders reset back to the original CVs and values that they were before I did the speedmatching, or do I manually need to change the CVs and values back to their original forms after deleting a consist? 

 

Do your 150 and 153 run better together now that they have been speedmatched? 

 

Thank you for confirming that it's about the difference in response from each motor rather that if fitted with sound or not. 

 

Thank you very much in advance. 

 

Kind Regards, 

 

Danny. 

 

 

Hi Danny,

 

In answer to your questions, in the order which you have asked:

 

Yes, CVs 3 - 6 are the main ones you should be changing.

 

CV3=Acceleration,  CV4=Deceleration, CV5=Maximum Speed, CV6=Mid Speed.  Those, I think, are industry standards. 

 

But be aware that not all manufacturers let you change some of those CVs.  For example, on Hornby TTS decoders you can't adjust CV5 or 6 and ESU Loksound v5 you can't change CV6 (which is a curious one as it's a high end sound decoder).

 

Very occasionally even though you have speed matched locos, when you couple them up they might "fight" with one another slightly at a certain speed step or two.  In other words they might judder a bit.  You can cure that by adjusting the BEMF (which is like a feedback) which is usually CV10 I think.  Even Hornby TTS allows you to change that one.

 

If you mess up the decoder you are trying to speed match to an existing loco (say loco A), then just do a reset on the second decoder (loco B) and start speed matching again.  Leave loco A alone.

 

Yes, once you have speed matched your locos you can couple them up and run them in consist.   Though I have two Class 20s that I have got semi permanently coupled. For those I find it easier not to have them set up as a consist but have them both on the same address, albeit one configured to run in  reverse as the locos are coupled nose to nose. 

 

When you clear a consist the decoders will retain your adjusted CVs so you won't need to speed match again.

 

Both my Hornby 153 and Bachmann 150 were always excellent runners - speed matching has not affected their smooth operation - it's just they both react exactly the same to the controller now!   It's quite satisfying to put them opposite each other on the circle of track and see them set off, go round a few times and come to a standstill still opposite one another.  Makes the effort worthwhile!

 

Let us know how you get on - good luck, and enjoy!

 

Vivian 

 

 

Edited by cravensdmufan
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You can do it by adjusting the basic CVs (as above) or you can use the decoder's speed table.

 

The latter may be a path to madness, however. People have tried to automate speed matching using rolling roads with speedometers (e.g. Bachrus, unfortunately, no longer available). To my knowledge no one has ever managed to achieve it due to vagaries in the way decoders respond to changes in the individual speed table entries.

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13 minutes ago, Crosland said:

You can do it by adjusting the basic CVs (as above) or you can use the decoder's speed table.

 

The latter may be a path to madness, however. People have tried to automate speed matching using rolling roads with speedometers (e.g. Bachrus, unfortunately, no longer available). To my knowledge no one has ever managed to achieve it due to vagaries in the way decoders respond to changes in the individual speed ta insteadble entries.

Hi Andrew - yes I did first try and use speed tables - and indeed nearly led to madness!

 

That's why I use the circle of Hornby settrack!  I disconnect the Powercab from my main layout and use the circle as the main line so I can then safely "Program on Main"

 

Not only is it easy to see what's happening, you can be sure that you are not inadvertently re-programming decoders in the other locos that happened to be on the layout that I'd forgotten to remove!

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40 minutes ago, cravensdmufan said:

CV3=Acceleration,  CV4=Deceleration, CV5=Maximum Speed, CV6=Mid Speed.  Those, I think, are industry standards. 

 

But be aware that not all manufacturers let you change some of those CVs.  For example, on Hornby TTS decoders you can't adjust CV5 or 6 and ESU Loksound v5 you can't change CV6 (which is a curious one as it's a high end sound decoder).

 

 

ESU expect you to use the 28 point speed curve, which will give much higher accuracy in speed matching.    But setting multiple 28 speed curve CVs on a throttle keypad is one way to madness.    Computer tools make it a lot easier, sliders to adjust (like 28 channel audio mixer), and the computer keeps track of what you've done to each locomotive.  A USB computer interface for a PowerCab is less than £40.  Suitable software (eg. JMRI) is free.  

 

The NMRA standard for DCC has a handful of "must have" CVs.  A much larger number of "optional" CVs.  The optional are optional, but a maker is supposed to use them correctly if they decide to include it in their decoder.   And the remainder are "up to the maker". 

 

 

- Nigel

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1 minute ago, Nigelcliffe said:

 

ESU expect you to use the 28 point speed curve, which will give much higher accuracy in speed matching.    But setting multiple 28 speed curve CVs on a throttle keypad is one way to madness.    Computer tools make it a lot easier, sliders to adjust (like 28 channel audio mixer), and the computer keeps track of what you've done to each locomotive.  A USB computer interface for a PowerCab is less than £40.  Suitable software (eg. JMRI) is free.  

 

The NMRA standard for DCC has a handful of "must have" CVs.  A much larger number of "optional" CVs.  The optional are optional, but a maker is supposed to use them correctly if they decide to include it in their decoder.   And the remainder are "up to the maker". 

 

 

- Nigel

Nigel - I actually do have an NCE Powercab USB interface and also have JMRI.  But I still can't get my head round using JMRI! to it's full advantage!

 

I've managed to get all my locos into the roster, and can use the wi-throttle and that's as far as I've got. One day when I'm feeling bored (and brave)! I may delve further into JMRI so no doubt I'll be asking questions on that!

 

 

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5 hours ago, cravensdmufan said:

Hi Danny,

 

In answer to your questions, in the order which you have asked:

 

Yes, CVs 3 - 6 are the main ones you should be changing.

 

CV3=Acceleration,  CV4=Deceleration, CV5=Maximum Speed, CV6=Mid Speed.  Those, I think, are industry standards. 

 

But be aware that not all manufacturers let you change some of those CVs.  For example, on Hornby TTS decoders you can't adjust CV5 or 6 and ESU Loksound v5 you can't change CV6 (which is a curious one as it's a high end sound decoder).

 

Very occasionally even though you have speed matched locos, when you couple them up they might "fight" with one another slightly at a certain speed step or two.  In other words they might judder a bit.  You can cure that by adjusting the BEMF (which is like a feedback) which is usually CV10 I think.  Even Hornby TTS allows you to change that one.

 

If you mess up the decoder you are trying to speed match to an existing loco (say loco A), then just do a reset on the second decoder (loco B) and start speed matching again.  Leave loco A alone.

 

Yes, once you have speed matched your locos you can couple them up and run them in consist.   Though I have two Class 20s that I have got semi permanently coupled. For those I find it easier not to have them set up as a consist but have them both on the same address, albeit one configured to run in  reverse as the locos are coupled nose to nose. 

 

When you clear a consist the decoders will retain your adjusted CVs so you won't need to speed match again.

 

Both my Hornby 153 and Bachmann 150 were always excellent runners - speed matching has not affected their smooth operation - it's just they both react exactly the same to the controller now!   It's quite satisfying to put them opposite each other on the circle of track and see them set off, go round a few times and come to a standstill still opposite one another.  Makes the effort worthwhile!

 

Let us know how you get on - good luck, and enjoy!

 

Vivian 

 

 

 

Thank you for all of the help and info. I really appreciate it. 

 

So I shouldn't need to change any CVs other than 3-6? I'm quite fortunate because I don't have any Hornby TTS or LokSound decoders, so hopefully I can minimise some of the potential confusion. 

 

So if decide that I want to speedmatch for example Loco A with a third loco, say Loco C, does that mean that I have to change the CVs and values from Locos A and B, back to their originals before attempting to speedmatch Locos A and C together?

 

Also, if I want to run a speedmatched loco by itself and not in a consist anymore do I have to change the CVs and values from just the loco that I want to run by itself or both locos, even if the second loco will not be moving? 

 

Speedmatching certainly does sound like it has it's benefits, and I suppose it also creates for more prototypical movement for when locos are running in consists, alike in reality. 

 

Thank you in advance. 

 

Kind Regards, 

 

Danny. 

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5 hours ago, Crosland said:

You can do it by adjusting the basic CVs (as above) or you can use the decoder's speed table.

 

The latter may be a path to madness, however. People have tried to automate speed matching using rolling roads with speedometers (e.g. Bachrus, unfortunately, no longer available). To my knowledge no one has ever managed to achieve it due to vagaries in the way decoders respond to changes in the individual speed table entries.

 

5 hours ago, cravensdmufan said:

Hi Andrew - yes I did first try and use speed tables - and indeed nearly led to madness!

 

That's why I use the circle of Hornby settrack!  I disconnect the Powercab from my main layout and use the circle as the main line so I can then safely "Program on Main"

 

Not only is it easy to see what's happening, you can be sure that you are not inadvertently re-programming decoders in the other locos that happened to be on the layout that I'd forgotten to remove!

 

5 hours ago, Nigelcliffe said:

 

ESU expect you to use the 28 point speed curve, which will give much higher accuracy in speed matching.    But setting multiple 28 speed curve CVs on a throttle keypad is one way to madness.    Computer tools make it a lot easier, sliders to adjust (like 28 channel audio mixer), and the computer keeps track of what you've done to each locomotive.  A USB computer interface for a PowerCab is less than £40.  Suitable software (eg. JMRI) is free.  

 

The NMRA standard for DCC has a handful of "must have" CVs.  A much larger number of "optional" CVs.  The optional are optional, but a maker is supposed to use them correctly if they decide to include it in their decoder.   And the remainder are "up to the maker". 

 

 

- Nigel

 

5 hours ago, cravensdmufan said:

Nigel - I actually do have an NCE Powercab USB interface and also have JMRI.  But I still can't get my head round using JMRI! to it's full advantage!

 

I've managed to get all my locos into the roster, and can use the wi-throttle and that's as far as I've got. One day when I'm feeling bored (and brave)! I may delve further into JMRI so no doubt I'll be asking questions on that!

 

 

 

3 hours ago, ColinK said:

I used the circle of setrack too - it does take time, but it works. I then saved the loco settings on JMRI, which is about the limit of my ability.

 

Thank you all for the replies and info. I really appreciate it. 

 

What are speed tables? And what is the difference between speedmatching using CVs and their values to speed tables? I am assuming through what you have already posted that speed tables are more difficult to use than the speedmatching option?

 

What would I have to do on a computer and does this support the option of using speed tables in order to match the speed of locos in a consist? I have a laptop with USB ports, that may be of use. What is JMRI software and where can it be found?

 

Thank you in advance. 

 

Kind Regards, 

 

Danny. 

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41 minutes ago, DRS Crewe On A Mission said:

 

Thank you for all of the help and info. I really appreciate it. 

 

So I shouldn't need to change any CVs other than 3-6? I'm quite fortunate because I don't have any Hornby TTS or LokSound decoders, so hopefully I can minimise some of the potential confusion. 

 

So if decide that I want to speedmatch for example Loco A with a third loco, say Loco C, does that mean that I have to change the CVs and values from Locos A and B, back to their originals before attempting to speedmatch Locos A and C together?

 

Also, if I want to run a speedmatched loco by itself and not in a consist anymore do I have to change the CVs and values from just the loco that I want to run by itself or both locos, even if the second loco will not be moving? 

 

Speedmatching certainly does sound like it has it's benefits, and I suppose it also creates for more prototypical movement for when locos are running in consists, alike in reality. 

 

Thank you in advance. 

 

Kind Regards, 

 

Danny. 

Hi Danny,

 

In answer to your two questions:

 

If you want to speed match a third loco (loco C) to the locos A and B that have been previously matched together, you just put either loco A or B (not both) onto your circle of track along with the new loco C and then adjust the CVs of loco C  to match the other one on the track.

 

If you want to run a previously speed matched loco on it's own, then just clear the consist, enter the single loco's address and off you go.

 

CV values are always retained in a decoder's memory until such time as you ever need to adjust those CVs again  - or if you do a decoder re-set (CV8 to 8 which reverts the decoder values back to factory defaults). 

 

I will need to leave other members to respond to your questions about the speed tables and the computer interface side of things.  I will follow those replies with interest as I need to learn more about them myself!

 

Cheers.

 

Vivian

 

PS  Just to clarify - (you probably already know this) before doing any speed matching you have to have different address numbers for each loco.  Should you, at a later date, wish to remove a decoder that has been previously speed matched and install it into a different loco you will need to give it that different loco's new address and then adjust the CVs to speed match if required. That's because the motor characteristics of the new loco will probably be different to the one you took it out of.

 

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10 hours ago, DRS Crewe On A Mission said:

Thank you all for the replies and info. I really appreciate it. 

 

What are speed tables? And what is the difference between speedmatching using CVs and their values to speed tables? I am assuming through what you have already posted that speed tables are more difficult to use than the speedmatching option?

 

What would I have to do on a computer and does this support the option of using speed tables in order to match the speed of locos in a consist? I have a laptop with USB ports, that may be of use. What is JMRI software and where can it be found?

 

 

"speed tables" are what some call the 28 CV's which can control the speed response of a decoder. 

 

In most decoders there are two ways of controlling the speed response of a decoder.  The "simple" or "3 point" method of minimum, max, middle (CV2, CV5, CV6), or the 28 point method (CV67 to CV94).    The choice of which speed settings are used in the decoder is made in CV29.   

By using 28 points, far more detailed control of the speed response can be achieved.   But, setting 28 CVs manually is hard work, hence the recommendations to use a computer program. 

 

 

JMRI is found at jmri.org.    The bits you'd be using for programming is called "DecoderPro", that's a fairly polished part which works well.    To use JMRI, you need a computer interface to your DCC system.     JMRI has been written by volunteers over about 15-20 years, it doesn't have the polished (or even up to date) documentation you might expect from a commercial company.  But its free, if you find a bug its likely to get fixed, etc..   

 

This page shows the 28 step speed table interface in JMRI - move the sliders to alter the response at each speed point.   The sliders are also "constrained" to prevent creating a silly speed table (ie. can't create a table with a hump in the middle, and dropping down at the top end).  

https://www.jmri.org/help/en/manual/DecoderPro3/Comp_Speed_Talble.shtml

 

 

 

- Nigel

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Just to add to Nigel's comments, you can only adjust one decoder at a time using DecoderPro - its a bit like adjusting CV values on your programming track.

 

One thing I'm fairly certain of is that you can set all the CV values (on one decoder) you want using DecoderPro and save that data.

 

You can then change the loco over and write the (saved) data used on the previous loco to the newer loco, change its loco address and any other data you want and then save the data for the new loco (using a different filename).

 

However, that really only works if you have two similar performing locos and you want to copy the first loco's speed table to the second loco and use that data as the base from which you tinker to get the second loco running as you want.

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5 minutes ago, Ray H said:

Just to add to Nigel's comments, you can only adjust one decoder at a time using DecoderPro - its a bit like adjusting CV values on your programming track.

 

 

That's not correct.   

 

You can only program one loco at a time on a programming track (you can do multiple locos, but that means they are programmed identically).   

 

If using operations-mode (programming on the main), you can have as many locos open as you like, and adjust all of them, at the same time.  This is identical to using a DCC system with a number of throttles connected at the same time, and each throttle could be programming a different loco on the main at the same time.   
But, if an individual has several programming tasks underway at the same time, they need a plan or risk getting into a muddle.

 

 

 

8 minutes ago, Ray H said:

One thing I'm fairly certain of is that you can set all the CV values (on one decoder) you want using DecoderPro and save that data.

 

You can then change the loco over and write the (saved) data used on the previous loco to the newer loco, change its loco address and any other data you want and then save the data for the new loco (using a different filename).

 

However, that really only works if you have two similar performing locos and you want to copy the first loco's speed table to the second loco and use that data as the base from which you tinker to get the second loco running as you want.

 

You can.   But copying files from one loco to another is fraught with problems.   I wouldn't do it. 
Don't try if there are different decoders in the two locos, you'll get into a huge mess (writing values to CVs which control something else).   

 

 

I'd recommend putting each loco on the programming track, and reading it in.   Then, use its saved roster file settings, either on-the-main, or on a programming track to make changes.    

 

 

- Nigel

 

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15 hours ago, cravensdmufan said:

Hi Danny,

 

In answer to your two questions:

 

If you want to speed match a third loco (loco C) to the locos A and B that have been previously matched together, you just put either loco A or B (not both) onto your circle of track along with the new loco C and then adjust the CVs of loco C  to match the other one on the track.

 

If you want to run a previously speed matched loco on it's own, then just clear the consist, enter the single loco's address and off you go.

 

CV values are always retained in a decoder's memory until such time as you ever need to adjust those CVs again  - or if you do a decoder re-set (CV8 to 8 which reverts the decoder values back to factory defaults). 

 

I will need to leave other members to respond to your questions about the speed tables and the computer interface side of things.  I will follow those replies with interest as I need to learn more about them myself!

 

Cheers.

 

Vivian

 

PS  Just to clarify - (you probably already know this) before doing any speed matching you have to have different address numbers for each loco.  Should you, at a later date, wish to remove a decoder that has been previously speed matched and install it into a different loco you will need to give it that different loco's new address and then adjust the CVs to speed match if required. That's because the motor characteristics of the new loco will probably be different to the one you took it out of.

 

 

Thank you for the reply and the info, I really appreciate it. 

 

So just to confirm if I want to remove a speedmatched loco from a consist, I just need to delete the consist, and then I can either run the loco by itself or I can speedmatch it with another loco. Do I always need to speedmatch locos together to form consists separately on a different circuit of track or can I have the wire still connected to my controller and track on my layout, and undertake speedmatching with all of my other locos on the layout?

 

Also, once I have speedmatched a loco with another loco, does the original loco ever need speedmatching again, weather it be the original loco it was paired with or any other different loco? 

 

Don't worry at all about the speed tables, you have helped massively with speedmatching. 

 

Thank you in advance. 

 

Kind Regards, 

 

Danny. 

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Thank you everyone for your help and comments on speed tables and JMRI, I really appreciate it. This is definitely something that interests me, but I'm thinking that at the moment it may be slightly too complex to start using speed tables and the JMRI software. To start off with I think I'm going to try and gain a better understanding of the speed matching and then in due course I can try and further my knowledge with regards to the speed tables. 

 

Just to confirm if I'm using and changing the speed tables which are CV67-CV94, do I need to change all of these CVs, or just specific CVs?

 

Thank you in advance. 

 

Kind Regards, 

 

Danny. 

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5 minutes ago, DRS Crewe On A Mission said:

 

Just to confirm if I'm using and changing the speed tables which are CV67-CV94, do I need to change all of these CVs, or just specific CVs?

 

 

If you've read the values from your loco, you only need to change those you want to change.   But if not read in, you're changing things somewhat blind to the consequences.  I wouldn't 100% trust any values found as defaults in a manual, just treat them as a rough guide.  I've seen too many cases where those in a decoder are not quite the same as in the manual.  

 

- Nigel

 

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2 hours ago, DRS Crewe On A Mission said:

 

Thank you for the reply and the info, I really appreciate it. 

 

So just to confirm if I want to remove a speedmatched loco from a consist, I just need to delete the consist, and then I can either run the loco by itself or I can speedmatch it with another loco. Do I always need to speedmatch locos together to form consists separately on a different circuit of track or can I have the wire still connected to my controller and track on my layout, and undertake speedmatching with all of my other locos on the layout?

 

Also, once I have speedmatched a loco with another loco, does the original loco ever need speedmatching again, weather it be the original loco it was paired with or any other different loco? 

 

Don't worry at all about the speed tables, you have helped massively with speedmatching. 

 

Thank you in advance. 

 

Kind Regards, 

 

Danny. 

Hi Danny,

 

Yes, that's correct.  If you want to remove a speed matched loco from a consist, for example a pair of 37s that you've already matched, and run each one separately you just delete the consist (NCE call it "Kill" the consist).   Once you've killed the consist you can recall the individual locos and run them separately.

 

I normally do all my speed matching on the circle of track completely separate from the layout.  I wouldn't advise having the circle wired up with your layout.  Once my locos have been speed matched then I set up / delete consists with the locos on the layout.  In other words I use the circle of track purely for speed matching.  Once locos or units are speed matched they don't need to be done again unless you want to speed match one to another loco or unit that has a motor with different characteristics.

 

Regarding your comment "undertake speedmatching with all of my other locos on the layout" .  Is it your intention then to match every loco / unit with one another?  I suppose that could be done, but I don't bother.  I just speed match locos that I sometimes use to double head - which actually isn't that many.  Just 20s and 37s mostly.  And of course DMUs.  As an example I like to have my Class 08 decoders programmed at a scale maximum speed so obviously wouldn't speed match with an HST!

 

May I suggest you just start off with two locos or units on a circle of track?   You'll soon get the hang of speed matching.  Then move them back on to your layout and practice setting them up in consist, running them as a pair then kill the consist and run separately again.

 

It's worth spending time learning - have fun!

 

Let us know how you get on.

 

Cheers.

 

Vivian         

 

 

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3 hours ago, DRS Crewe On A Mission said:

Just to confirm if I'm using and changing the speed tables which are CV67-CV94, do I need to change all of these CVs, or just specific CVs?

 

Some decoders do not like it the values are not monotonic, i.e., they always increase, never decrease, relative to the previous one.

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2 hours ago, cravensdmufan said:

Hi Danny,

 

Yes, that's correct.  If you want to remove a speed matched loco from a consist, for example a pair of 37s that you've already matched, and run each one separately you just delete the consist (NCE call it "Kill" the consist).   Once you've killed the consist you can recall the individual locos and run them separately.

 

I normally do all my speed matching on the circle of track completely separate from the layout.  I wouldn't advise having the circle wired up with your layout.  Once my locos have been speed matched then I set up / delete consists with the locos on the layout.  In other words I use the circle of track purely for speed matching.  Once locos or units are speed matched they don't need to be done again unless you want to speed match one to another loco or unit that has a motor with different characteristics.

 

Regarding your comment "undertake speedmatching with all of my other locos on the layout" .  Is it your intention then to match every loco / unit with one another?  I suppose that could be done, but I don't bother.  I just speed match locos that I sometimes use to double head - which actually isn't that many.  Just 20s and 37s mostly.  And of course DMUs.  As an example I like to have my Class 08 decoders programmed at a scale maximum speed so obviously wouldn't speed match with an HST!

 

May I suggest you just start off with two locos or units on a circle of track?   You'll soon get the hang of speed matching.  Then move them back on to your layout and practice setting them up in consist, running them as a pair then kill the consist and run separately again.

 

It's worth spending time learning - have fun!

 

Let us know how you get on.

 

Cheers.

 

Vivian         

 

 

 

Thank you for the reply and for all of the help. 

 

Just a thought, once a loco has been speedmatched with any other loco once, does this same loco ever need speedmatching again? Or does this depend on if I would be wanting to speedmatch for example a Bachmann 37 and an Accurascale 37? If the latter I am assuming that because the motors will differ with the 37s been from different manufacturers this will mean I would have to speedmatch again? This then leads into another question. For every consist that I create I am assuming that I would need to speedmatch the locos each time, even if for example one loco had been speedmatched before, because it may not have been speedmatched with the loco/s that I am attempting to put into a consist and speedmatch currently? So basically, for every new consist I create I need to speedmatch said locos in that consist?

 

I was asking if it would be possible to speedmatch all locos on layout with the wire connected to the layout rather than a separate circuit of track because I have carpet in the room where the layout is and I am thinking that it wouldn't be ideal to put locos so close to the carpet and have them running around on the track. 

 

Thank you very much in advance. 

 

Kind Regards, 

 

Danny. 

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5 hours ago, Nigelcliffe said:

 

If you've read the values from your loco, you only need to change those you want to change.   But if not read in, you're changing things somewhat blind to the consequences.  I wouldn't 100% trust any values found as defaults in a manual, just treat them as a rough guide.  I've seen too many cases where those in a decoder are not quite the same as in the manual.  

 

- Nigel

 

 

2 hours ago, Crosland said:

 

Some decoders do not like it the values are not monotonic, i.e., they always increase, never decrease, relative to the previous one.

 

Thank you to both of you for the replies and the help. 

 

I'm pleased that you have both mentioned this because I never knew that the values can be different from what is said in manuals/leaflets compared to the actual decoder itself. 

 

Thank you. 

 

Kind Regards, 

 

Danny. 

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Interesting read this thread, I've just had a go at a consist with two identical Class 56s. They are on addresses 5 and 6. I've set them up with an advanced consist by setting CV19 to 20 (consist address) in both decoders and set both CV21 and CV22 to 255 so that the consist has control of all the functions for now. So far so good, address 20 operates both locos together and addresses 5 and 6 operate them independently still. However, surprisingly the speeds are slightly different and when I checked they have different makes of decoder fitted. I'm going to change the decoders to two identical types to see if that could be an easy fix before getting involved with the speedmatching side. 

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1 hour ago, DRS Crewe On A Mission said:

 

Thank you for the reply and for all of the help. 

 

Just a thought, once a loco has been speedmatched with any other loco once, does this same loco ever need speedmatching again? Or does this depend on if I would be wanting to speedmatch for example a Bachmann 37 and an Accurascale 37? If the latter I am assuming that because the motors will differ with the 37s been from different manufacturers this will mean I would have to speedmatch again? This then leads into another question. For every consist that I create I am assuming that I would need to speedmatch the locos each time, even if for example one loco had been speedmatched before, because it may not have been speedmatched with the loco/s that I am attempting to put into a consist and speedmatch currently? So basically, for every new consist I create I need to speedmatch said locos in that consist?

 

I was asking if it would be possible to speedmatch all locos on layout with the wire connected to the layout rather than a separate circuit of track because I have carpet in the room where the layout is and I am thinking that it wouldn't be ideal to put locos so close to the carpet and have them running around on the track. 

 

Thank you very much in advance. 

 

Kind Regards, 

 

Danny. 

Hi Danny,

 

It sounds as if you want all your fleet of locos to be interchangeable and all to be able to double head with one another.  In which case you may as well speed match the whole lot and they will all respond to the controller the same.  That way you will be able consist anything with anything (even triple head, or bank at the rear of the train - yet another benefit of DCC!).

 

When Accurascale release their 37 it probably won't respond the same as your existing Bachmann 37.  It will most probably have a different type of motor, the gearing will be different and possibly require a different type of decoder. So you will need to speed match it if you want to work it in multiple with your existing fleet. 

 

Regarding the track.  Yes, of course you could use the layout;  I certainly wouldn't put track direct on the carpet.  Why not use a sheet of board, cardboard or even newspapers for the circle?  I use double 2nd radius curves as it's compact and easy to assemble and take apart as required.

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18 hours ago, APT Fan said:

Interesting read this thread, I've just had a go at a consist with two identical Class 56s. They are on addresses 5 and 6. I've set them up with an advanced consist by setting CV19 to 20 (consist address) in both decoders and set both CV21 and CV22 to 255 so that the consist has control of all the functions for now. So far so good, address 20 operates both locos together and addresses 5 and 6 operate them independently still. However, surprisingly the speeds are slightly different and when I checked they have different makes of decoder fitted. I'm going to change the decoders to two identical types to see if that could be an easy fix before getting involved with the speedmatching side. 

 

That's most interesting and I had a feeling that the type of decoder as well as the motor in individual locos would also play a part in the difference of speed and momentum in individual locos. Except the Dapol Class 68s that I have I think that all the rest of my locos are fitted with the Bachmann 21 Pin 36-557 decoders. I find that the Bachmann decoders operate faultlessly, they respond really well with my current and previous DCC controllers and they are a good all rounder. I only used the Dapol Imperium decoders for the 68s because the 68s require the decoders to have more functions to operate the various type of independently controlled lighting. 

 

Kind Regards, 

 

Danny. 

 

17 hours ago, cravensdmufan said:

Hi Danny,

 

It sounds as if you want all your fleet of locos to be interchangeable and all to be able to double head with one another.  In which case you may as well speed match the whole lot and they will all respond to the controller the same.  That way you will be able consist anything with anything (even triple head, or bank at the rear of the train - yet another benefit of DCC!).

 

When Accurascale release their 37 it probably won't respond the same as your existing Bachmann 37.  It will most probably have a different type of motor, the gearing will be different and possibly require a different type of decoder. So you will need to speed match it if you want to work it in multiple with your existing fleet. 

 

Regarding the track.  Yes, of course you could use the layout;  I certainly wouldn't put track direct on the carpet.  Why not use a sheet of board, cardboard or even newspapers for the circle?  I use double 2nd radius curves as it's compact and easy to assemble and take apart as required.

 

Thank you very much for the reply and the information. 

 

That's what I'm thinking, because I have a variety of different classes of DRS locos produced by various manufacturers it's easy for example to form some trains using the same brand of locos and decoders and just put the locos into a consist, but as Bachmann and Accurascale release the 20/3s and 37s next year this is going to increase the fleet I have produced by different manufacturers and with most likely different motors. 

 

So if I was to leave my wire connected to the layout and all of the locos on it, do I need to programme on the main track or programme on the service track when changing CVs and their values? Provided that I select the correct loco and consist addresses is their any chance that for example CVs and values may end up changed on loco/s that I don't wish to change? If you think that this could happen and it's too risky to use the layout with the loco fleet on, I will try and find somewhere suitable to set up a circuit of track on. That's excellent idea by using cardboard or newspaper if for example I don't want to set up the track on carpet on have the space to put boards on the floor. 

 

Thank you in advance. 

 

Kind Regards, 

 

Danny. 

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