MrWolf Posted April 11, 2021 Author Share Posted April 11, 2021 It would seem that the problem has been frogmarched off stage left. Even without cleaning the rails, an old Airfix 14xx that has spent forever in its box crawled around the layout with only two feed wires connected to power. If that runs, anything will. Crazy Frog reminds me of why I was made to get rid of my old crash helmet.... 5 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gedward Posted April 11, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 11, 2021 7 hours ago, Alister_G said: Only if you don't use droppers on each section of track. If you do, then electrical continuity of the point blades is not necessary, as each section of track, including the stock rails and closure rails on turnouts, are powered from the bus. Al The bus, which is on the bridge, right? 1 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrWolf Posted April 11, 2021 Author Share Posted April 11, 2021 Shh! Don't say that! You know that it attracts those pesky Stukas. All very funny unless you are the one hoovering up after they've been..... 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted April 11, 2021 Share Posted April 11, 2021 11 hours ago, MrWolf said: I was under the impression that the end of the point blade touching the rail was a part of the circuit? Would you mind putting me right on that one? happy to, but Alister G already has: “On a standard unmodified turnout, both closure rails have the same polarity, which changes depending on which way the turnout is thrown. If it's an electrofrog, the frog is also at the same polarity as the closure rails. The modifications that are commonly carried out break the link between the closure rails, and add a bridge to each stock rail, so the closure rail and adjacent stock rail maintain a common polarity at all times, but the two closure rails are at opposite polarity. Further, on electrofrog ,the link between the frog and closure rails is broken, and a separate power feed is attached to the frog, which is then separately switched.” the reasons for this are 1. To avoid the possibility of a short between the back of a wheel, and the open blade of the turnout. This sparks on DC and causes a shut-down on DCC. 2. To avoid stalls and bad pick-up on longer turnouts where the blades rely on a touching (rather than sliding/wiping) contact with the stock rail. (Triang series 4 points iirc had a sliding contact under the rail - sliding contacts self-clean to some extent) 3. To guarantee a correctly live path on both rails right through the point & crossing at all times so the loco has the best chance of uninterrupted pickup. You're right to expect that they’ll work straight out of the box, and I’d bet they will. What Peco can’t guarantee, and won’t reimburse you for, is fluff, dog hair, dust, paint, glue, oxidation or crud causing bad contact after you’ve laid the track. And even if you’re surgically meticulous in the installation, dust and oxidation will occur over time, which will lead to stalls, and jerky running, hence my comment.. Having laid the track, it’s probably too late to do anything about it. Cleaning between the blade & stock rail with something non-abrasive (eg a piece of greyboard, soaked in IPA) periodically will help. sorry to be the bearer etc... 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluemonkey presents.... Posted April 11, 2021 Share Posted April 11, 2021 I wish I had opted for Electrofrog points but way back in the early days and in my ignorance all mine are Insulfrog and I am expecting to wire each isolated section Like the good old days. I will be wiring for at least two weeks solid. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold NHY 581 Posted April 11, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 11, 2021 1 hour ago, Simond said: You're right to expect that they’ll work straight out of the box, and I’d bet they will. What Peco can’t guarantee, and won’t reimburse you for, is fluff, dog hair, dust, paint, glue, oxidation or crud causing bad contact after you’ve laid the track. And even if you’re surgically meticulous in the installation, dust and oxidation will occur over time, which will lead to stalls, and jerky running, hence my comment.. Having laid the track, it’s probably too late to do anything about it. Cleaning between the blade & stock rail with something non-abrasive (eg a piece of greyboard, soaked in IPA) periodically will help. sorry to be the bearer etc... Morning Simon, I'm in the same boat as Rob regarding how I use peco points and the associated wiring. I note your observation about running etc, a valid point. However my experience of reality is somewhat different. As I mentioned in my previous post, all my layouts are identical in both the wiring and the reliance on the moving bits of the points to maintain conductivity. Sheep Lane, now sold on, is still operating on this principle six years later and is still in use at home and is also exhibited. As well as home use, two existing layouts, Mutton and Bleat Wharf have been exhibited. Mutton did eight exhibitions in a little over twelve months with all the accompanying bumping about that brings. (The less said about a 'progressive' drive to Staffordshire, the better......). Bleat and Sheep Dip see weekly use at home, sometimes for hours at a time. I probably clean the track maybe once a week and the contacts on the points when I need to but its very infrequent, perhaps once a month. Probably longer. So maintaining the layout is hardly arduous and I have two on the go. Sheep Dip in particular is home to mainly short wheel base 0.4.0st and I have no issues with the running qualities. In addition, I often operate Bleat with a P class 0.6.0t and B4 0.4.0t. Again no issues with running. So, by all means have an awareness of the worst case scenario, but its not all doom and gloom. Far from it. Keeping it simple does work. Rob. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Mick Bonwick Posted April 11, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 11, 2021 I find this topic of wiring and point control of particular interest, not least because of the many views expounded and experiences related hereabouts. After building a layout for somebody else a good few years ago and then having to revisit its new home a few times to tweak several Hornby turnouts that refused point (sorry) blank to perform as one would expect, I have subsequently modified every point laid, wherever it is and for whatever purpose. I am pleased for Rob and Rob (and all you other lucky people) that their experiences don't reflect mine. Not wanting to have to seek out the absence of electricity, at any time in the future, in the vicinity of the Isle of Portland, I have implemented every process I can think of to ensure that what should reach my locomotives' motors does so and that which should not, cannot. It seems to have worked so far, but would that have been the case if I had just left all the components in the same state as when they came out of their boxes? Easton lives in a workshop (not a shed as Mrs. Mick continues to address it) that suffers perpetual temperature and humidity change depending on the weather and my mood. I also use my airbrush in there and that, despite efficient extraction, reuslts in a layer of fine dust that ultimately settles everwhere that you don't want it to. The combination of that and the dust released by the carpet, used to protect my knees, means that it is quite likely that things get gummed up and insulated inappropriately. I use droppers on every piece of rail and separate DCC power districts (sorry, Rob) for fiddle yard, station area and point motors, meaning that the wiring accounts for a great deal of the space utilisation beneath the baseboard surface. Would I have got away with just two wires? 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigphil Posted April 11, 2021 Share Posted April 11, 2021 Hi Guys, I am new to this whole electro/ insulfrog points debate and I'm sure it will have been discussed to death. My backstory is that to avoid COVID lockdown madness I have come back to a simple 3 loop layout I set up for my kids 20+ years ago. A few modifications and I have 3 working loops with 5 available controllers for sidings, station etc but........ to change loops I have for example rh peco insulfrog points feeding directly into rh peco insulfrog points. It seemed neat and logical and I have isolating joiners between them on each rail as I thought I needed them. However, my locos stall. Can I assume that simply seperating the two points with a short length of track will sort this out or am I being incredibly naive and simplistic? 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted April 11, 2021 Share Posted April 11, 2021 Rob I guess it’s a case of “your mileage might vary”, and I really wouldn’t want to put anyone off. It’s certainly possible to clean the contact points of the blade and rail, and, if there is an issue at a later date, it’s possible (if fiddly) to fit a switch to avoid relying on that contact. My experience is that sooner or later it becomes a pain, so I’d tend to avoid it, it’s unfortunate that I observed & commented after the event, so to speak. Had I observed the intent, I’d have commented earlier. atb Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted April 11, 2021 Share Posted April 11, 2021 2 hours ago, bigphil said: Hi Guys, I am new to this whole electro/ insulfrog points debate and I'm sure it will have been discussed to death. My backstory is that to avoid COVID lockdown madness I have come back to a simple 3 loop layout I set up for my kids 20+ years ago. A few modifications and I have 3 working loops with 5 available controllers for sidings, station etc but........ to change loops I have for example rh peco insulfrog points feeding directly into rh peco insulfrog points. It seemed neat and logical and I have isolating joiners between them on each rail as I thought I needed them. However, my locos stall. Can I assume that simply seperating the two points with a short length of track will sort this out or am I being incredibly naive and simplistic? Phil difficult to give concise answers without a track plan, but if you draw your plan out with eg the rail at the BACK of the baseboard in BLACK (easy to remember!) and the other rail in red, and religiously put all the breaks and all the feeds in exactly as they are, you’ll see if there are any places where black & red touch (short circuit) or bits of track without both feeds (no feed, no go) the type of point doesn’t really matter, but the linking wires under the frog do. If the position of the point switches the power to eg a siding, you’ll need to consider whether you can accidentally isolate a loco that you want to keep running, possibly isolating one rail at one end and the other at the other. You might need extra feeds to avoid this. hth Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post MrWolf Posted April 12, 2021 Author Popular Post Share Posted April 12, 2021 (edited) Not an awful lot done over the weekend due to the weather being good. Well, sunshine / hailstorm / sunshine / hailstorm / sunshine. So we've been busy trying not to kill ourselves around the local country lanes. I have found an hour to redefne the courses of bricks on the chimneys and fit them to the station building. It's been a welcome distraction from reinventing the wiring. I have decided that as I have already had to cut out one set of points to replace them, if and when any of the points decide to give up the ghost, I will replace them and wire them up based upon the advice of the more experienced folks on here. Ripping out a point won't be too bad thanks to following Rob's @NHY 581 "open landscape" philosophy! Meanwhile, sun's out, surf's up! I suppose that I had better go and do some actual work... Image missing. Edited August 17, 2022 by MrWolf Replaced picture 19 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrWolf Posted April 12, 2021 Author Share Posted April 12, 2021 (edited) Another antique kit dug out of the box of doom and given a bit of attention. Edited August 17, 2022 by MrWolf Replaced picture 12 4 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrWolf Posted April 12, 2021 Author Share Posted April 12, 2021 (edited) Station roof temporarily fitted. One of my least favourite jobs is cutting out for the chimney stacks. It's something that I have made a horse's arse of on more than one occasion. It's worked though, but I am left with the ongoing irritation of the laser cut doors. They are made from the most uncooperative form of plastic known to man. I have tried superglue, MEK, Glue n glaze, Revell Contacta and I am on the point of raiding the bicycle puncture repair outfit for some rubber solution because nothing adheres ... Just like modern bicycles (no matter how much you paid!) They look really good, but they're made out of cheese! Edited August 17, 2022 by MrWolf Replaced picture 8 1 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrWolf Posted April 13, 2021 Author Share Posted April 13, 2021 (edited) The makings of a canopy. It's a bit of an experiment using two bits of battened roof from the Wills' station waiting room kit and some Slater's GWR valencing that's probably older than I am. I thought it had gone brittle with age but it just seems to be very hard plastic. It behaved okay. I am assuming that the canopy was added as part of the 1901 GWR makeover. It's also because I don't want the building to look like a straight Golden Valley Railway crib and I happen to like canopies... I should probably get out more. Edited August 17, 2022 by MrWolf Replaced picture 15 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold NHY 581 Posted April 13, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 13, 2021 Morning Rob. The station building looks lovely as does the canapé. With regards to the sticky subject of the doors, would the glue hold if the mating surfaces were primed/painted first? Not ideal but this might act as a barrier to the surface that won't take to the glue. Rob. 1 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrWolf Posted April 13, 2021 Author Share Posted April 13, 2021 Unfortunately I have been through that option too. I have sanded the surface to provide a key also. It wouldn't be the end of the world to use a spare one as a template for cutting a set from .0010" plasticard. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Rowsley17D Posted April 13, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 13, 2021 It's always good to see chimneys going through the roof rather than being stuck on top. 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrWolf Posted April 13, 2021 Author Share Posted April 13, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, Rowsley17D said: It's always good to see chimneys going through the roof rather than being stuck on top. Thanks, it's one of my pet hates from when I was a kid. You couldn't make a stuck on chimney sit right and the slightest knock (as you reached across to rerail the wobbly Airfix B set that had derailed on the old cast blade Hornby points - AGAIN) and the chimney was busted in such a way that it would never go back on straight... Edited April 13, 2021 by MrWolf Stupid autocorrect 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium St Enodoc Posted April 13, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 13, 2021 25 minutes ago, Rowsley17D said: It's always good to see chimneys going through the roof rather than being stuck on top. ...although if they're flashed it shouldn't make much difference. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Mick Bonwick Posted April 13, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 13, 2021 (edited) 12 hours ago, MrWolf said: The makings of a canopy. Keep a lookout for nudgers. https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/145756-canopy-nudging/&tab=comments#comment-3602983 Edited April 13, 2021 by Mick Bonwick Link added by way of explanation. 2 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Regularity Posted April 13, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 13, 2021 1 hour ago, St Enodoc said: ...although if they're flashed it shouldn't make much difference. You could get arrested for that. 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrWolf Posted April 13, 2021 Author Share Posted April 13, 2021 Canopy Nudgers, I laughed plenty at that thread! Even though it took up an hour of my life that I can never get back.... I will be nudge proofing my canopy! Brings back memories of all those Tri-ang R60 stations with snapped off canopies. A shame because they had rather nice curved side valances. It also reminds me of finding some ridiculously fine copper wire when I was about twelve and connecting up all my Airfix telegraph poles with it. It wasn't long before we had a Roadrunner moment with the telegraph wires. In the cartoons, the Coyote gets catapulted into the next state, a cliff face a ravine or a train, whichever is the funniest. In the real world, three or four telegraph poles snap off flush with the baseboard whilst the wire mysteriously becomes knotted... 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrWolf Posted April 13, 2021 Author Share Posted April 13, 2021 (edited) Tonight is less about being creative and more about dealing with the rats nest under the baseboard. Wires have been routed, trimmed to length and either soldered or fitted to block connectors where I may need to replace a component. I could use self adhesive mounts and cable ties, but masking tape works to tidy the wire. Most importantly, I had the tape lying around. Image missing in action Edited August 17, 2022 by MrWolf Image missing 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Alister_G Posted April 13, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 13, 2021 According to legend, DCC only requires 2 wires, whereas DC requires a rat's nest. You are therefore obviously doing it wrong... As you can see from my DCC layout: Al. 1 3 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrWolf Posted April 13, 2021 Author Share Posted April 13, 2021 That reminds me of mending valve radios back when they were fashionable antiques! I can see what most of it does, it's not too bad, I have some extra power feeds to bodge in yet. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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