Aston On Clun. A forgotten Great Western outpost.

[Alister_G]

Rob, before you do anything could you check continuity between the closure rails and the V rails - I think as it stands they are all bonded together so adding the strapping as suggested would cause a short circuit.

 

I'm a bit busy at work but will try and write a more detailed explanation in a bit

 

Al.

 

[Graham T]

This latest conversation is making me realise just how much I am (not) looking forward to making a start on wiring...

 

 

... luckily I don't even have any track yet.

[NHY 581]

3 minutes ago, Alister_G said:

Rob, before you do anything could you check continuity between the closure rails and the V rails - I think as it stands they are all bonded together so adding the strapping as suggested would cause a short circuit.

 

Al.

 

 

Inclined to agree. Bridging between the closure and the v will cause a short. I did this recently on an old point as an experiment. 

 

It shorted. Cut the wires and it was fine. 

 

Rob. 

 

( Electric Guru Sheep..............not) 

[chuffinghell]

8 minutes ago, Graham T said:

This latest conversation is making me realise just how much I am (not) looking forward to making a start on wiring...

 

 

... luckily I don't even have any track yet.

 

I admit I have gone OTT on my wiring as I have wired each individual section of track so I'm not reliant on the fishplates for conductivity

 

My concern was that paint could get under the fishplates through capillary action and thus turn a standard fishplate into an isolated one

 

[Graham T]

1 minute ago, chuffinghell said:

 

I admit I have gone OTT on my wiring as I have wired each individual section of track so I'm not reliant on the fishplates for conductivity

 

 

I've hardly looked at the subject yet, but my first thoughts were to have droppers from every section and point.  Then I could figure out what system to use (i.e. DC or DCC) later.  But I might well be completely wrong - wouldn't be the first time!

[chuffinghell]

10 minutes ago, NHY 581 said:

Electric Guru Sheep

Great name for a band!

[MrWolf]

Electric Guru Sheep?

 

Wasn't that Frank Zappa's first Album? 

 

Or the last thing Syd Barrett wrote?

[chuffinghell]

You're getting confused with E.L.O The Electric Lamb Orchestra 

[Alister_G]

Hi Rob,

 

So my understanding is that as the turnout comes out-of-the-box, if you feed it DC power from the toe of the point, all of the following areas (in red) will be connected together as positive, when the turnout is on the straight-ahead position:

 

 

Could you check with a continuity tester if that is the case?

 

Al.

Edited April 22, 2021 by Alister_G

[MrWolf]

I'll have a look at that tonight and bring a tester upstairs. But at a glance that would appear to be the case, looking at the factory jumper cables around the insulated frog.

[Simond]

yes, agree with Regularity's drawing, with two minor, and possibly over-pedantic exceptions

 

a) that it is not necessary to break the topmost/rearmost blue rail and have two feeds on it, one feed and no break would be fine - but as drawn fits the simple rules and is consistent thus easy.

b) if you do not use the pre-wired x wiring under the frog on the point, the breaks on the crossover are not necessary - (if you use the point as supplied, they are)

 

is it possible to be over-pedantic?

[chuffinghell]

I admit that at wish I had converting all my locos to clockwork so I didn't have to do any track wiring, two wires my ar..

[NHY 581]

5 hours ago, MrWolf said:

Electric Guru Sheep?

 

Wasn't that Frank Zappa's first Album? 

 

Or the last thing Syd Barrett wrote?

 

 

Possibly one of Donavan's lesser hits? 

[Bluemonkey presents....]

Wowsers, think I will stick to wagon building and forget the layout. 

[Nick C]

9 hours ago, Alister_G said:

Hi Rob,

 

So my understanding is that as the turnout comes out-of-the-box, if you feed it DC power from the toe of the point, all of the following areas (in red) will be connected together as positive, when the turnout is on the straight-ahead position:

 

 

Could you check with a continuity tester if that is the case?

 

Al.

I don't think so, on an insulfrog point, from what I remember, each switch and closure rail (the one between the switch and the frog) are connected to the corresponding rail after the frog. So in the straight position, the curved switch, closure and the upper rail of the curved route are all unpowered.

[Nick C]

Something like this:

This relies on the switch contact for continuity, but is self isolating. By bonding the switches to the stock rails, both routes are live all the time.

 

For an electrofrog point, all the rails in the middle are bonded together, so before bonding the switches to the stock rails, you have to cut the existing ones in the closure rails to separate switches from frog, resulting in @chuffinghell's diagram

Edited April 22, 2021 by Nick C

[MrWolf]

I've been through the point with a circuit tester and this is how it works straight out of the box and why it's important to feed the power at the toe of the point.

 



 

Note that the existing jumper cables carry current beyond the frog only when the relevant switch rail touches the stock rail. The wing rails? either side of the frog are unpowered although made of the same nickel silver as the rest of the point.

 

 

 

Edited August 17, 2022 by MrWolf
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[MrWolf]

So if we bond the switch rails to the adjacent stock rails via the convenient gaps in the sleepers viz:

 

 

 

 

The rails should be live at all times. This is fine if you are running one engine in steam. Any more requires a switched isolation beyond each turnout exit. These could be operated by the point solenoid I believe.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 17, 2022 by MrWolf
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[Simond]

Yes but no but...

 

per the “rules”, you don’t want breaks in your return rails, except where there are frogs, which you cannot avoid.  if you are from the “red for return” school of wiring, then I guess “yes”
 

In general, I would not break the continuity of a stock rail, as, you pointed out, you’re feeding the track from the toe end, it may be useful for a section break, but it’s not generally necessary.
 

if you are using DCC, connect the closure rails to the stock rails and you could get away with two feed wires, for a simple layout.  But beware of crossovers, where you would have black & red meeting.  The easy way to deal with that is to remove one or both of the built in connections under the frog.

 

if you’re analog, then you will need sections to allow more than one loco on the layout. You can achieve that by isolation gaps and extra feeds with switches. 
 

the other refinement would be live frogs, which mean that your yellow and green bits are live.  The switch diagram for that is shown on a previous post - Regularity, I think.

 

looks like you’ve got this sorted.
 

 

[Alister_G]

That's interesting. It looks like they've modified it to make it a lot easier to bond the stock and closure rails without causing problems.

 

Al.

[chuffinghell]

14 hours ago, MrWolf said:

 

 

[MrWolf]

I suspect that "Chad" as he was known to the RAF (Kilroy to the Americans) was the first emoji. 

Legend has it that a trainee radio operator altered a wiring diagram on a blackboard whilst the officer giving the lecture was out of the room.

 

I thought that he was rather appropriate, given most of our lack of layout wiring knowledge, the period my layout is set in as well as the general ambience of the thread old man......

 

As you were....

[Alister_G]

On 22/04/2021 at 23:25, MrWolf said:

So if we bond the switch rails to the adjacent stock rails via the convenient gaps in the sleepers viz:

 

 

 

 

The rails should be live at all times. This is fine if you are running one engine in steam. Any more requires a switched isolation beyond each turnout exit. These could be operated by the point solenoid I believe.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Rob,

 

If you bond the stock and closure rails as you've shown, then you don't need to feed the power from the toe, just feed it directly to the bonding straps.

 

Al.

[MrWolf]

As a diversion from wires, chimney flashings and recalcitrant points, I got all inspired by @KNPto put together an old Ratio Macaw G. I have another one somewhere in The Box Of Doom, it would make sense to build that one also and weather both simultaneously. 

 

 

 

Edited August 17, 2022 by MrWolf
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[MrWolf]

Found it, the price is as much a giveaway as the yellow box. 

This does mean that I will have a fair amount of flash to deal with and will end up throwing away the wheels, couplings and transfers.

 

 

 

I usually replace old plastic kit wheels with Bachmann items. They are reasonably cheap and whilst they aren't perfect, they are at least concentric! 

 

Edited August 17, 2022 by MrWolf
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