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How are 20ft containers stacked on trains?


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Just now, Andy Hayter said:

30fters- not so much are they are used on  are specific traffics.  Yes not long sea - but I did say that earlier - but short sea quite widely used on specific flows.

 

UBC have 1500 units according to their publicity.

Karl Schmidt does not disclose a number but I know it is more than insignificant.

 

Compared to 20ft and 40ft from China and the Far East the numbers will be small, but within Europe at least do not discount them.  UBC claim 150,000  movements = 10 per container per year.  No way a Chinese container will get close to that in Europe.  

 

That's a 72 day round trip. Ouch.

 

 Containers move worldwide - the next move for a box from Shenzhen area ports (28 day transit to UK) might be UK/ New York in 10-15 days. Inter -Asia volumes are huge: a few round trips to and from Singapore might only occupy a  month

 

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35 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

As Fat Controller notes , 30' boxes are now very rare . They were never used deep sea that I know of.

When I first left school I worked in a maltings in East Anglia, we used to export malt to Cadbury in Nigeria that was shipped in 30' IFF bulk containers. 

 

I assume these would count as deep sea?

 

Andi

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3 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

 

That's a 72 day round trip. Ouch.

 

 

 

 

No its 36 days.  They talk of movements to equal deliveries - and in UBC and K Schmidt's cases I know they operate a very efficient back load system.   China's 5 days to port, 14 days to get on a boat, 25 days to UK, 3 days to clear, 2 days delivery and then back empty looks relatively poor.

 

I accept if you work in international shipping in the Uk you won't have seen many units unless you work in the ports of Hull, Teesside and to a lesser extent Dover but they really are quite common in Europe on the rail network.

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6 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

 

No its 36 days.  They talk of movements to equal deliveries - and in UBC and K Schmidt's cases I know they operate a very efficient back load system.   China's 5 days to port, 14 days to get on a boat, 25 days to UK, 3 days to clear, 2 days delivery and then back empty looks relatively poor.

 

I accept if you work in international shipping in the Uk you won't have seen many units unless you work in the ports of Hull, Teesside and to a lesser extent Dover but they really are quite common in Europe on the rail network.

 

Depends what you call a movement. I would class a movement as "from A to B" rather than "from A to B then back to A" . 

 

But that's the perception of a deep-sea operator for whom a box coming into the UK is pretty unlikely to go back to the port of loading and might in practice go almost anywhere, And the next move will be with a different customer .

 

To put that UBC figure into perspective , a single 15,000TEU ship , loaded only with 40's , would generate 7500 container movements on each leg into/out of Europe. That's at least 15,000 moves from one ship on one round trip , minimum (allow for 20's in the mix , "double-dipping" with wayport cargo etc and you could be talking 20,000 moves) 

26 minutes ago, Dagworth said:

When I first left school I worked in a maltings in East Anglia, we used to export malt to Cadbury in Nigeria that was shipped in 30' IFF bulk containers. 

 

I assume these would count as deep sea?

 

Andi

 

 

Yes.

 

Thankfully I've never been involved in the West Africa trades.....

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IFF to Nigeria would definitely be deep sea, I assume it was business like that that led to the take over by UBC..  I wonder how many containers came back!

 

You just cannot compare a ship from China to these short haul movements.  The vast majority never see a ship.  Typical movement from NRW Germany, Eastern Belgium or Netherlands.

 

Customer to Duisburg truck - in some cases could be barge.

Duisburg by train to S France/ N Italy/ Spain (Barcelona probably) for onward movement by train from there and finally truck to customer.  So the train replaces the ship.  

 

Similar railheads set up in Rotterdam, Busto Arizio, Barcelona/Tarragona/Valencia, Marseille, Bordeaux - as well as routes to the East.  

 

 

 

Relatively few movements involved crossing to/from the UK.    Usually direct to customer or direct from supplier.

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I stopped hauling containers in the early 90’s and went to driving buses as the hours were better, but I do remember that at a container depot’s Southampton head office, asking the question what happens to the container once it’s been tipped?

 

I was told that unless it’s been specified, they will always try to get a back working, so it’s earning money for the company.  It’s journey might start in China, come to Felixstowe, to customer and then redirected to another customer, back to another UK port, to the US east coast, used several times in the US, departing the US west coast and eventually back in China.  
 

The description is simplified but I think you get the picture.  The container might never come back to it’s original home port but it’s making money for the owner every time it’s loaded.

Edited by jools1959
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7 hours ago, jools1959 said:

I stopped hauling containers in the early 90’s and went to driving buses as the hours were better, but I do remember that at a container depot’s Southampton head office, asking the question what happens to the container once it’s been tipped?

 

I was told that unless it’s been specified, they will always try to get a back working, so it’s earning money for the company.  It’s journey might start in China, come to Felixstowe, to customer and then redirected to another customer, back to another UK port, to the US east coast, used several times in the US, departing the US west coast and eventually back in China.  
 

The description is simplified but I think you get the picture.  The container might never come back to it’s original home port but it’s making money for the owner every time it’s loaded.

I know when I worked in container haulage around the late 90s most of the boxes we sent back were loaded as I was surprised bearing in mind my dad used to bemoan "we don't make anything in this country these days". That said at some points the lines would ship empties if they had an imbalance that they couldn't trade through, I remember us shipping out loads of 40HC and 40GP Hapag Lloyd boxes down to Southampton for empty return to Asia as they were desperate for them back. Part of the Felixstowe issues at the moment is the port is clogged with empty boxes waiting to go out due to a number of reasons....

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2 hours ago, 37114 said:

I know when I worked in container haulage around the late 90s most of the boxes we sent back were loaded as I was surprised bearing in mind my dad used to bemoan "we don't make anything in this country these days". That said at some points the lines would ship empties if they had an imbalance that they couldn't trade through, I remember us shipping out loads of 40HC and 40GP Hapag Lloyd boxes down to Southampton for empty return to Asia as they were desperate for them back. Part of the Felixstowe issues at the moment is the port is clogged with empty boxes waiting to go out due to a number of reasons....

Whilst boxes may go back loaded, often it is with scrap metal, or material for 'recycling'; these come with problems of contamination, and uneven loading. This latter has caused problems for the rail operators.

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6 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

This latter has caused problems for the rail operators.

There was a derailment caused by this - container was overloaded and the items inside were not secure and shifted in transit, so also causing a loading imbalance. This in turn caused the wagon it was on to derail.

Now I just have to try and remember when/where it was so I can find the report (may be on the RAIB site)

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Just now, keefer said:

There was a derailment caused by this - container was overloaded and the items inside were not secure and shifted in transit, so also causing a loading imbalance. This in turn caused the wagon it was on to derail.

Now I just have to try and remember when/where it was so I can find the report (may be on the RAIB site)

There was one at Landor St, one at Washwood Heath and one at Reading West that I'm aware of. All had problems with excessive twist in the track, which accentuated the offset load. Can't remember the dates, I'm afraid. The Washwood Heath one also had problems with bogie rotation.

One of the last projects my wife worked on before retiring was co-ordinating a cross-industry group looking at freight-train derailments. I used to go through the RAIB reports for here, as I was on the sick.

There was one non-container one I remember, at Angerstein Wharf, where a hopper derailed. Despite being nominally empty, it had 9 tonnes of its previous load stuck  in one end. 

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11 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

Whilst boxes may go back loaded, often it is with scrap metal, or material for 'recycling'; these come with problems of contamination, and uneven loading. This latter has caused problems for the rail operators.

 

Waste paper was always the big one to the Far East , but China and a number of other countries have stopped accepting . The rates were always ghastly. Scrap metal is another , though much smaller volume and tends to be in 20's. Liable to rip the innards out of your container if you're not careful

 

As far as the Far East trade is concerned , it's Westbound dominant (ie more from Asia to Europe) but....

Westbound cargo is light (7-9 tonnes a TEU) whereas we always reckoned on an average of 13 tonnes/TEU Eastbound. Meaning that on occasion when EB was strong you could be full on weight Eastbound even though you weren't full on TEU . Eastbound allocation control always worked on tonnes , not TEU , and you always had to have a weight allowance for empties, because each ship must take out as many containers as it brings in , otherwise your global equipment park will gradually drain from Asia to Europe

 

On the other hand the Transatlantic is normally Westbound dominant - meaning from Europe to the US. The Yanks don't send us as much as we send them

 

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On 22/11/2020 at 16:12, Andy Hayter said:

I have not come across 20ft containers that are anything other than 8ft high - so a square end cross section. That is not to say they don't exist.  

 

"Standard" 20s are 20' x 8' wide x 8'6", however, I have recently found a couple of shipping lines that use 20 foot High Cube Pallet Wides. So 20' x 8'2" x 9' (2DG1).

 

i-Q79c9Xn-XL.jpg

 

On 22/11/2020 at 16:40, Fat Controller said:

30' containers seem to largely have dropped out of use, apart from 'Bulktainer' top-loading, end-tipping boxes, used by Hoyer, IFF and others.

 

An exception to the rule seems to be Huktra, who use 30' part framed tank containers

 

lift-DSC_1126-300x200.jpg

 

 

On 22/11/2020 at 18:44, Steadfast said:

The other thing with 9'6" boxes is they will usually have yellow and black wasp stripes on the ends, above the doors. Try a search for a 45G1 container and it'll stand out.

 

When they're new... They don't last that long IMHO

 

On 22/11/2020 at 23:31, jools1959 said:

I stopped hauling containers in the early 90’s and went to driving buses as the hours were better, but I do remember that at a container depot’s Southampton head office, asking the question what happens to the container once it’s been tipped?

 

3 (main) options. Reload for an export, Empty into a depot or port for storage , or for sale for conversions or use as storage units.

 

On 23/11/2020 at 20:45, Ravenser said:

 

Waste paper was always the big one to the Far East , but China and a number of other countries have stopped accepting . The rates were always ghastly. Scrap metal is another , though much smaller volume and tends to be in 20's. Liable to rip the innards out of your container if you're not careful

 

Waste paper and carboard is a regular export to either Turkey or the Indian Sub Continent, scrap metal is also still commonly exported in 20 footers, mostly fragmented scrap from recycling centres to India/Pakistan where it is sorted and graded before moving onto the Far East.

 

With respect to weights, Verified Gross Mass (as mentioned before) was brought in a few years ago, but I was told after a badly loaded ship capsized. If it isn't submitted to the shipping line, you will not be able to get the box lifted at a port or railhead (unless they're weighing it for you).

Edited by lankyphil
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The containers are most definitely 8ft wide and not 8ft 6 but I concede that standard ones are 8ft 6 tall.

 

And your example of a high cube 20ft most certainly would not be allowed to be 9ft 6 wide.  It would not fit anywhere.

 

The point about these containers is standardisation of lengths and width.  This allows them to be swapped onto any vehicle and be stacked on board a ship.  

 

 

https://www.mrbox.co.uk/shipping-containers/

 

 

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On 24/11/2020 at 21:41, Andy Hayter said:

The containers are most definitely 8ft wide and not 8ft 6 but I concede that standard ones are 8ft 6 tall.

 

And your example of a high cube 20ft most certainly would not be allowed to be 9ft 6 wide.  It would not fit anywhere.

 

The point about these containers is standardisation of lengths and width.  This allows them to be swapped onto any vehicle and be stacked on board a ship.  

 

 

https://www.mrbox.co.uk/shipping-containers/

 

 

 

Two problems with that - europallet boxes and 45's

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45fts fit the 40ft specification regarding the positioning of the uprights to allow multiple stacking.  I am not sure how shipping lines handle them though - I could imagine they are a problem.  

 

Not sure what a Europallet box is - but then we never used Europallets in the chemical industry.  I had always thought that Europallets fitted well inside conventional ISO boxes.  

 

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16 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

45fts fit the 40ft specification regarding the positioning of the uprights to allow multiple stacking.  I am not sure how shipping lines handle them though - I could imagine they are a problem.  

 

Not sure what a Europallet box is - but then we never used Europallets in the chemical industry.  I had always thought that Europallets fitted well inside conventional ISO boxes.  

 

There are a couple of reports on maib.gov.uk where container stacks have toppled on (or off) ships, and these go into quite a lot of detail about how the containers were loaded or should have been.  I think one had some 45s on the top of a stack that was taller than the ones fore and aft, so it could overhang either end, and there was something about containers that didn't meet international structural requirements having to be at the top of a stack as well.  

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Europallets fit well but you end up with a gap at one end of about 80% of a pallet space, and because the pallets have to be in two different orientations your warehouse team tend not to be too keen on it...until you order a couple of loose stacked 40’s to remind them it could be worse...

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17 minutes ago, Jonboy said:

until you order a couple of loose stacked 40’s to remind them it could be worse...

Oh yeh, been there done that.  A good way to sort out the heart attack vulnerable members of he team - but probably not the way they or management would have preferred. 

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On 24/11/2020 at 12:59, lankyphil said:

 

"Standard" 20s are 20' x 8'6" x 8'6", however, I have recently found a couple of shipping lines that use 20 foot High Cube Pallet Wides. So 20' x 9'6" x 9'6".

 

i-Q79c9Xn-XL.jpg

 

 

 

 

 


I don't think so- I think that's a 8' wide, 9' high x20' container.  (2.5*39/12= 8'1")  - there are 8', 8'6" and 9' containers.  I have a pair of 8' containers here which are my outside storage of stuff (like one railway layout, a 4" traction engine and 4.5 tons of coal).  If I was doing it again, I would go for the 9' containers, which are rather less common, but you can fit a full 8' sheet of plywood vertical in them.

A 9'6" wide container would be overwidth for North American roads. (IE http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/trucks/handbook/section1-3-7.shtml for Ontario rules )

 

James

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9' high containers need to be loaded onto suitable wagons of course - one a few years ago wasn't, and hit the canopy at Basingstoke station - I think the RAIB report said it'd been entered incorrectly into the system as a low height container, and no-one checked.

 

The BBC branded up a container a few years ago, stuck a GPS tracker on it and followed it around the world - it went to all sorts of places.

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10 minutes ago, Nick C said:

9' high containers need to be loaded onto suitable wagons of course - one a few years ago wasn't, and hit the canopy at Basingstoke station - I think the RAIB report said it'd been entered incorrectly into the system as a low height container, and no-one checked.

 

The BBC branded up a container a few years ago, stuck a GPS tracker on it and followed it around the world - it went to all sorts of places.

If that's the one I remember, then it had come all the way from Leeds; there was a motley collection of bricks from tunnels and overbridges on the top..

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20 hours ago, Jonboy said:

Europallets fit well but you end up with a gap at one end of about 80% of a pallet space, and because the pallets have to be in two different orientations your warehouse team tend not to be too keen on it...until you order a couple of loose stacked 40’s to remind them it could be worse...

 

Europallet boxes are extra wide boxes designed to avoid this. Consequently they aren't ISO standard, can't go deep-sea and are restricted to Europe. Bell Lines used to use a lot of them

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3 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

If that's the one I remember, then it had come all the way from Leeds; there was a motley collection of bricks from tunnels and overbridges on the top..

Including Westbury Lane bridge east of Pangbourne - it had more gouges in the brick shoulder than just about any pther bridge on BR as Nr Brunel hadn't reckoned in even 8'6" high containers.  It was on of the first overbridges to be 'improved' on the Southampton - Midlands route.

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