Variations on a couple of themes by lots of you

[Chimer]

Wasn't sure whether to offer this up for comment as it's not likely to be progressed - it's for a room that is not the most likely to get planning permission from the authorities, and doesn't tick all my boxes.  But the recent variations on the terminus to return loop theme, together with the ongoing Minories debate, made me have a look to see how a combination of those ideas might fit this particular space.  So I'm not really looking for suggestions for anything completely different, just identification of errors or improving tweaks.  It could just be operated for fun, but I've tried to think of ways to make operating the terminus more realistic should I want to.  Here's the basic layout ......

 

 

 

The narrow double track centre top is a constraint to maintain regular duck-under access to an eaves area.  So there is no intention to combine the terminus with the return loop area scenically.  And the MPD area is for a (very squashed) representation of an MPD, not the MPD for the terminus - though it will serve that function among others.  The loops down the right hand side will probably be semi-scenic, they are somewhere to hold trains to avoid a departure from the terminus being immediately followed by a suspiciously similar-looking arrival.  I am thinking that in the "realistic" scenario, engines would  be changed here, with the replacement coming from the MPD, so a loco hauling a long-distance departure doesn't turn up again ridiculously soon. 

 

The curves into the loops are mostly 3rd and 4th radius set-track, and I'm not expecting to use the full length of the loops, as the clearances on the curves might be quite dodgy.

 

The fact that the return loop design means leading coach out is leading coach back is something I am happy to ignore.  But if a tank engine has departed from the terminus smokebox first with a local passenger, the train might pause in front of the MPD while the loco reverses itself on the triangle, so as to reappear at the terminus bunker first as you might expect.

 

So to the terminus ....

 

 

 

The throat is the standard Minories variant with the extra track allowing a platform 3 arrival at the same time as a platform 2 departure.  It seems to work quite nicely round the 90 degree bend, using Streamline curved points.  But the point that normally serves the spare loco spur here leads to a kickback goods yard, and I'm not at all sure this reflects anything likely.  The operational idea is that the train arrives in the headshunt and is propelled backwards into one of the two parallel roads top right, the train engine shunts the yard, building up the next departure in the other top right road while distributing the newly arrived wagons to appropriate spots, prior to running round and departing.  Or the train engine could retire to the MPD leaving the wagons to the mercy of a yard shunter.  Either of which would work, but is it at all realistic?

 

Passenger-wise, there's nothing original except that unusually for a Minories design the island platform is P1 and P2 - the rearrangement gave a little bit of extra space for the goods yard.  Trains, up to five coaches (six at a push maybe) will be mostly loco-hauled with the occasional DMU.  The region/period will be my usual towards-the-end-of-steam ex-L&Y territory - no decision yet on whether to include a loco release crossover between P2 and P3.  Locos for departing trains will often arrive light engine from the MPD, coaching stock will sometimes appear to be removed or brought in by ECS workings.

 

Speaking of the MPD .....

 

 

Here I really don't know what I'm doing but have tried to fit in the required facilities - I think I need an ash pit somewhere, perhaps on one of the tracks where I've indicated water columns?

 

Thanks to anyone who's read this far - over to you for comment, criticism and suggestions!

 

Cheers, Chris

Edited November 20, 2020 by Chimer
Eliminate duplicate pictures

[rodshaw]

I like the idea of an out-and-back combined with a reversing triangle and a continuous run.

[Chimer]

18 minutes ago, rodshaw said:

I like the idea of an out-and-back combined with a reversing triangle and a continuous run.

 

Thanks - the triangle and MPD were both afterthoughts which serendipitously work well together.  I had made a number of futile attempts to fit a turntable into the MPD space before I realised I could do without one .....

[Zomboid]

As the shed is a scenic area I'd try to make the area by it a bit more scenic - a station with a loop or something like that.

 

I like the general idea (oddly enough), and I'm not a believer in a typical FY. If the storage sidings were formatted as a station where trains would wait, change locos, or even have bay platform(s) so that the track engine scenario is avoided by having trains terminate. Fitting it all in would probably be a big challenge, but some cut down thing with the basic functionality of Exeter Central (sorry, the north of England is a mystery to me, but I'm sure such things must have existed there too).

[Chimer]

Thanks @Zomboid .... I do like the first idea a lot and will definitely have a play around with that area.  But I don't think the storage loops can be operated more realistically in the space available - not least because traffic through them is one way from north to south, and moving the triangle west to provide space for platforms would cramp the MPD even more.   I think I'm happy for that area just to be a train park with the option for loco exchange, but never say never .....

[Flying Pig]

5 hours ago, Zomboid said:

As the shed is a scenic area I'd try to make the area by it a bit more scenic - a station with a loop or something like that.

 

 

Shed next to a triangle probably isn't that unusual but here it reminds me of a sort of miniature Gateshead.  I would strongly recommend not trying to fit a passenger station in here and let the shed and running lines provide the atmosphere.  I have recently been watching a lot of cab view videos taken from trains traversing the tangle of lines between Wandsworth Road, Clapham Junction and the West London Extension - railway everywhere and not a platform in sight.

 

Unfortunately, I don't like the storage loops in this design.  Partly they're too dominant visually, but also I'm not that keen on the current trend to put off-scene activities on scene.  I find a train returning with the same engine less unrailwaylike than it stopping in a loop to change engines (that did happen, but really only with long-distance services).  I would rather ditch the fiddle yard altogether and have some carriage sidings.  You then have a layout with somewhere for engines, carriages and wagons to live and for passenger and goods trains to start and terminate.  Every move can be authentic, except the use of the fiddle siding occasionally to change stock.

[RobinofLoxley]

I think that this is a really imaginative use of the space and it could be fiendishly complicated to operate. Two complex yards in one layout is just plain greedy. The sidings in the MPD are somewhat short, however.

 

As you have a reversing loop do you need the triangle section? You don't seem like a roundy type of person.

[Keith Addenbrooke]

Hi Chris, it’s an interesting challenge - an 8’ x 12’ space would be considered a luxury space by many.  There’ll be loads of published plans for this size of space, but the position of the door and the eaves access / window on either of the long sides complicates things.  It makes it more like the sort of real situations many modellers actually face, of course.

 

I think the thing I’m not quite convinced by is the small continuous run link - to me it ‘unbalances’ the plan.  What I’d probably do would be to put a turntable where the Goods Shed is at the terminus (like the maps of stations in Liverpool shown recently on the Minories thread), then take out the triangle - engines don’t need turning at that end of the layout.  Do keep the MPD at the reversing loop end though - with the storage sidings / carriage sidings (the turntable at the terminus is just that, leaving some room for Goods - move the Goods shed alongside the platforms - eg: Birmingham Moor St).

 

The kind of modeller I can see this appealing to is one with a interest in collecting or building locomotives, as that’s where both the operating focus and the visual focus (with the MPD) seems to be.

 

To sell this plan to someone more interested in operation, I think you might have to try and squeeze in a double track reversing loop and a junction just after the eaves access / window so there is a choice of routes, but tighter curves.  Keith.

Edited November 20, 2020 by Keith Addenbrooke

[Chimer]

Thanks for the interest and comments .....

 

@Flying Pig : The initial thought was just to try to stick a Minories-style terminus on the end of a balloon loop, so everything to the right of the eaves access was going to be non-scenic, just a way of holding a few extra trains for a bit of variety, along with a train-set oval for continuous running when/if required.  The idea of an MPD looking "sort of all right" grew out a few extra storage sidings in the middle of the oval and the triangle followed when I couldn't fit a turntable in.  So the concept accepts that only the terminus will be operated in a proper real-railway-like manner.

 

@RobinofLoxley : Actually, I am normally a roundy-roundy person, I like the idea of sitting back and watching the trains go by (repeatedly) sometimes, but here I just want the oval for testing.  And the MPD is really just an alternative to keeping locos on a shelf in a stack of loco-lifts.  The triangle allows me to turn locos in the general shed area, which does have prototypical antecedents - but strangely enough this is most useful for keeping tank engines correctly orientated with the buffers at the terminus, as a simple out and back round the loop would make it seem they had been turned at their destination, which would be most unlikely on a local suburban service.

 

@Keith Addenbrooke : As above re triangles and ovals, but also - I've tried more conventional layouts for this space with very little satisfaction, and was interested to try something which didn't involve crossing the doorway.  There's no way I would suggest this is the best use of a 13' x 9' ish area, I was going for this specific type of layout which has been explored a lot recently on other threads, but using a bit more room.  Tighter curves are a no-no for me - I'm already using 3rd and 4th radius set-track everywhere.  I don't think extra routes would add anything to the basic concept of operations - once you cross the bridge over the eaves access, you're in the rest of the world until you come back, if you see what I mean.  And a turntable in that corner is a possibility I hadn't thought of - but now I have, I think I still prefer a decent spread out goods yard and light engine movements to a remote MPD.

 

That all sounds a bit defensive, I suppose, but please do keep providing food for thought .....

 

 

 

 

[DCB]

For me the awkward bit is that there is no clear distinction between visible and "Hidden" areas.  I need somewhere for trains to go off stage and hidden.  Trains running one way past the loco depot would annoy me.   Equally the wrong line running to the loco shed would annoy me.

The station has no run round, necessitating a pilot loco to turn trains back and yet there are no carriage sidings to move stock to. A run round between platforms would at least let off peak locals run round. 

I like the continuous run especially for running locos in.

If I did it the continuous run would spiral down to low level dead end FY with High level carriage sidings and MPD over, but It wouldn't work with 2000 on RTR Steam, due to lack of adhesion.

Where is @Harlequin when you need him?

Edited November 21, 2020 by DavidCBroad

[Harlequin]

@Harlequin is confused and doesn’t know what to make of this one!

 

Actually, having thought about it, I largely agree with you, David. It’s the mixture of scenic, part scenic and non-scenic scattered around the room that worries me. And the proportions. But it’s hard to see how to arrange the parts any differently without going multi-level, which brings new problems.

 

I think something different would make better use of the space... but Chris said in the OP we’re not allowed to use that ploy in this exercise!

Edited November 21, 2020 by Harlequin

[Zomboid]

Tank engines being turned en-route isn't necessarily unrealistic. Anything running round the Kingston or Hounslow loops from Waterloo would be turned. In Scotland there's the Fife and Cathcart circles which immediately come to mind. I don't know how things were actually operated, but the Oldham line would have allowed for something similar from Manchester Victoria, as would the pre-LUL routes from Liverpool Street to Woodford via Leyton and Hainault. No doubt there's plenty of other examples out there.

[Keith Addenbrooke]

Hi Chris, thanks for the feedback on our comments.  I can see the benefit of a small continuous run loop for testing / running-in so do keep it in for that reason (I’d probably label it as such in a note to the plan).

 

The sense I get reading through the comments is that this plan almost works, but hasn’t quite ‘clicked’ yet.  The challenge is that, staying within the terms of the brief, the tweaks that would be applied vary by ‘customer’, a bit like a ‘hatchback, estate or saloon’* conversation.  All good stuff, Keith.

 

(*it’s a while since I bought a new car)

[Flying Pig]

10 hours ago, Chimer said:

so everything to the right of the eaves access was going to be non-scenic, just a way of holding a few extra trains for a bit of variety

 

Oh dear - you appear to be playing Simon's Pet Hate Bingo.  Tick off "excessive space offscene"

 

[Chimer]

15 minutes ago, Flying Pig said:

 

Oh dear - you appear to be playing Simon's Pet Hate Bingo.  Tick off "excessive space offscene"

 

 

Timely ..... I was about to post:

 

Just out of interest, suppose I had presented it like this ....

 

 

which is how I suppose I was thinking of it, from the perspective of the watcher, rather than the operator.  That's a retaining wall between the tunnel mouths down the right-hand side, and hills in the corners, though the the straight bits of the storage loops would still be visible from directly above.  Would anyone have seen it differently, and therefore commentated differently?  For @DavidCBroadI could occasionally run a DMU anti-clockwise round the oval, just so things do pass the MPD in both directions .....

 

I know this one doesn't play to @Harlequin's particular strengths!

 

Comments on the MPD layout would be appreciated from those who understand such things - obviously I know it's ridiculously squashed, but are the facilities roughly right?

 

Thanks, Chris

Edited November 21, 2020 by Chimer

[Nearholmer]

I think its OK without too much it the way of concealment - real railways do, after all, have carriage sidings and goods marshalling yards, which look for all the world like stock storage loops.

 

That having been said, it would probably benefit from some over-bridges of various kinds to break-up the sweep of it, and to frame sub-scenes.

 

Also, I think it make a few micro-tweaks in the station goods arrival area, to obviate the need for quite so much shuffling-about and release a bit more track-length for loading/unloading.

 

It is, of course, a very 1930s 0-gauge or 1950s 00-gauge plan, classic CJF stuff in the latter case, and you either like the operability, and overlook the multiple compromises, of such plans, or you find them annoyingly unrealistic and cramped, and build a P4 light-railway terminus to FY layout instead.

 

Marmite, chalk and cheese, one man's meat is another man's poison, and probably several other food-based analogies, apply.

[Flying Pig]

14 minutes ago, Chimer said:

Just out of interest, suppose I had presented it like this ....

 

That works better for me.

[Keith Addenbrooke]

2 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

 

That works better for me.

Agreed.  The remaining ‘sticking’ point for me is the single line and one way running past the big MPD.  Not sure how to fix it though within the remit?  Keith.

[Chimer]

20 minutes ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

Agreed.  The remaining ‘sticking’ point for me is the single line and one way running past the big MPD.  Not sure how to fix it though within the remit?  Keith.

 

A pair of crossovers beneath the window would mean trains could run either way past the MPD (and through the storage roads) albeit on a single track - that's a distinct possibility.  Doubling that bit of track along the full length between tunnel portals would require R2 set-track and make use of the triangle for turning locos rather convoluted, so not keen on that.  Doubling from the MPD access turnout to the bottom left tunnel portal is more do-able - a three-way point could be used instead of the medium left.  Might have a play with that later - rugby to watch for the next few hours!

[RobinofLoxley]

I guess a lot of people would prefer the concealed storage roads but when I first saw the plan I looked at it and thought hwo would you run a train service on that, given a three platform terminus but only one running line through which a lot of traffic might pass. I thought the storage roads might split into blocks as a holding zone for the single line - I am thinking more automation these days which is probably toxic for some....

[Zomboid]

The single, unidirectional line past the loco yard is fine with me. Maybe not that common, but I always think of East Ham depot which is between the running lines, so such a thing could have existed elsewhere too.

[Nearholmer]

The other option in the space has to be a ‘round the walls’ job, with a lifting flap at the doorway, which I think might permit terminus to return-loop, as you have, but with a great long double-track section in-between, spiralling gently down from ‘Magnaries’ to the storage sidings, balloon-loop and loco depot.

[Chimer]

 

 

On 21/11/2020 at 11:02, Nearholmer said:

I think its OK without too much it the way of concealment - real railways do, after all, have carriage sidings and goods marshalling yards, which look for all the world like stock storage loops.

 

That having been said, it would probably benefit from some over-bridges of various kinds to break-up the sweep of it, and to frame sub-scenes.

 

Also, I think it make a few micro-tweaks in the station goods arrival area, to obviate the need for quite so much shuffling-about and release a bit more track-length for loading/unloading.

 

It is, of course, a very 1930s 0-gauge or 1950s 00-gauge plan, classic CJF stuff in the latter case, and you either like the operability, and overlook the multiple compromises, of such plans, or you find them annoyingly unrealistic and cramped, and build a P4 light-railway terminus to FY layout instead.

 

Marmite, chalk and cheese, one man's meat is another man's poison, and probably several other food-based analogies, apply.

 

 

21 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

The other option in the space has to be a ‘round the walls’ job, with a lifting flap at the doorway, which I think might permit terminus to return-loop, as you have, but with a great long double-track section in-between, spiralling gently down from ‘Magnaries’ to the storage sidings, balloon-loop and loco depot.

 

Thanks for the comments ..

 

Storage loops - that's the way I was thinking with the first iteration, but it didn't play well with the critics .

Bridges - yes, agree, haven't really worked on that aspect so far .

MIcro-tweaks - would love to know your thinking, I'm not 100% happy with my solution but handling goods seems to be a perennial issue with all Minories plans .

CJF - I'm definitely a compromiser given the alternative offered .

Cheese and meat without Marmite and chalk thank you .

Lifting flap - the original thought was "ooh, is that (i.e. terminus to balloon loop) something I could do in that room that doesn't cross the doorway" - but you've just put the germ of a new idea into my head, dammit!

 

Cheers, Chris

[Nearholmer]

[Chimer]

@Nearholmer Thanks - I can see you're thinking of building up the departing train in the top section of the run-round loop, rather than using the siding in front of the warehouse, but after running round you'd still need to draw it forward, needing the full length of that siding, before setting back into the departure road across the right-hand crossover prior to departure?  Maybe flip the right-hand crossover so you could use the other long siding (now empty) at that point?