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Can anyone give an approximate date when the DVTs began to work the majority of WCML trains? Wikipedia suggests they were built in 1988 but i believe there were a few problems before they started regularly working trains. 

In essence I'm trying to work out when old fashioned loco haulage with an engine always at the front ended on west coast. Was it as late as 1990?

 

Thanks if anyone can help!

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17 minutes ago, 125_driver said:

Can anyone give an approximate date when the DVTs began to work the majority of WCML trains? Wikipedia suggests they were built in 1988 but i believe there were a few problems before they started regularly working trains. 

In essence I'm trying to work out when old fashioned loco haulage with an engine always at the front ended on west coast. Was it as late as 1990?

 

Thanks if anyone can help!

If you look at videos on YouTube for 1989/90, there are still plenty of non push-pull trains, the Glasgow/Manchester/Liverpool Mk3 sets in particular. The Mk2f Birmingham/Wolverhampton sets seemed to get DVTs first.

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1 hour ago, 125_driver said:

Also was wondering what preceded DBSOs on the GEML , was it like the WCML with a loco change each time train arrived at Norwich or Liverpool St?

 

Hello 125. Don't forget that the Ipswich- Norwich part of the line was still in the hands of 37s and, if they were very lucky, a 47(s). It seems that full electrification coincided with the DBSOs, though others may be aware of a crossover era where electrics ran through before the DBSOs arrived.

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1 hour ago, Derekstuart said:

 

Hello 125. Don't forget that the Ipswich- Norwich part of the line was still in the hands of 37s and, if they were very lucky, a 47(s). It seems that full electrification coincided with the DBSOs, though others may be aware of a crossover era where electrics ran through before the DBSOs arrived.

 

Cobblers. When the electrification reached Ipswich (Spring '85) trains were hauled by 86/2 to Ipswich and then 47/4 to Norwich. The wires reached Norwich in '87 when they went 86/2 only. Until late '90 trains were BFK/2FO/RBR/TSOs/BSO - mostly Mk2D except for some Mk2E FOs. Locos were released at both ends when the train departed and waited for the next train. 86/2 were maintained at Ilford originally so needed to be detached at Liverpool Street. The 1st DBSO arrived in late 1990 with the rest of them in 1991 along with several Mk2Fs from the LMR displaced by the Mk3 from the push pull sets. The sets lost the BFKs and BSO and the DBSO went on the county end (unlike on WCML); maintenance of the 86/2 had moved to crown point this arrangement allowed a loco swap in Norwich station without any additional shunting.

 

The DVTs (and DBSO) allowed much greater stock utilisation (by about 10%) and loco utilisation (by about 20%), the first by speeding up turn around times and the latter by not having to have one loco stuck at the blocks until the train had left. I believe the Birmingham and Wolverhampton sets were done first (21 of the first 31 in service on 1/1/90 were allocated to Oxley) was that as the trips were shorter they had more turn-arrounds per diagram and would have the greatest benefit in terms of time saved. Also I believe that with the loco swaps for NWSW cross county trains loco storage at BNS was at premium and that Wolverhampton was not much better.

 

All Mk3 DVT look to have been in service by the end of 1990.

 

There may be footage of the DVTs being tested in late 89/90. There was a daily test run with two pairs of DVT (each pair back to back) with a loco in the middle of them; I think it was Willesden to Bletchley and back. The DVTs (and rebuilt DBSOs) used the same sockets as the E+G push pull sets but the control 'box' was different - while potentially more reliable it took a bit of time to get it to work. For instance the first rebuilt DBSO should have been at Crown Point in the summer of 1990 but arrive something like 3 months late and still had reliability issues.

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A mate who started on the railway with the LMS ended his career in Liverpool Lime Street's top link.

 

He was one for a laugh too. 

 

A younger driver having done an inspection of his DVT and felt his DVT was missing a pantograph! report it then lad....to which the fitter then bent the younger drivers ear..

 

Jimmy, driving himself kicking back in his cab doing a ton going down working, was then greeted by a steward with a full brekkie. Imagine the surprise having worked on your own for twenty years, his comment "I almost s*te myself" but the brekkie was good.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Bomag said:

 

Cobblers. When the electrification reached Ipswich (Spring '85) trains were hauled by 86/2 to Ipswich and then 47/4 to Norwich. The wires reached Norwich in '87 when they went 86/2 only. Until late '90 trains were BFK/2FO/RBR/TSOs/BSO - mostly Mk2D except for some Mk2E FOs. Locos were released at both ends when the train departed and waited for the next train. 86/2 were maintained at Ilford originally so needed to be detached at Liverpool Street. The 1st DBSO arrived in late 1990 with the rest of them in 1991 along with several Mk2Fs from the LMR displaced by the Mk3 from the push pull sets. The sets lost the BFKs and BSO and the DBSO went on the county end (unlike on WCML); maintenance of the 86/2 had moved to crown point this arrangement allowed a loco swap in Norwich station without any additional shunting.

 

The DVTs (and DBSO) allowed much greater stock utilisation (by about 10%) and loco utilisation (by about 20%), the first by speeding up turn around times and the latter by not having to have one loco stuck at the blocks until the train had left. I believe the Birmingham and Wolverhampton sets were done first (21 of the first 31 in service on 1/1/90 were allocated to Oxley) was that as the trips were shorter they had more turn-arrounds per diagram and would have the greatest benefit in terms of time saved. Also I believe that with the loco swaps for NWSW cross county trains loco storage at BNS was at premium and that Wolverhampton was not much better.

 

All Mk3 DVT look to have been in service by the end of 1990.

 

There may be footage of the DVTs being tested in late 89/90. There was a daily test run with two pairs of DVT (each pair back to back) with a loco in the middle of them; I think it was Willesden to Bletchley and back. The DVTs (and rebuilt DBSOs) used the same sockets as the E+G push pull sets but the control 'box' was different - while potentially more reliable it took a bit of time to get it to work. For instance the first rebuilt DBSO should have been at Crown Point in the summer of 1990 but arrive something like 3 months late and still had reliability issues.

 

You are full of information but it's a shame you left your manners and civility behind. There's no need for 'cobblers' when a simple "I think you are wrong because..."

 

Thank you for confirming, as I wrote above, that there was an electric to diesel change at Ipswich. So there was a relatively brief period where electrics were running right through before the DBSOs arrived.

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1 minute ago, Flood said:

I thought the cobblers worked Euston - Northampton...

 

 

 

 

Gets hat and coat...

 

Yes, I remember them well. AL1 or AL5 usually and a collection of aged MK1s... But it still beat the timings of the then new 321s.

(standing by for someone to jump up in outrage and tell me I'm wrong...)

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58 minutes ago, Derekstuart said:

 

You are full of information but it's a shame you left your manners and civility behind. There's no need for 'cobblers' when a simple "I think you are wrong because..."

 

Thank you for confirming, as I wrote above, that there was an electric to diesel change at Ipswich. So there was a relatively brief period where electrics were running right through before the DBSOs arrived.

 

I see that Flood got the joke. Four years is not a brief period, it was twice as long as the period where there was a change of loco at Ipswich. Also your original post quoted Class 37s, which had been almost complete replaced by 47s in the early 1970's .

 

There is a difference between an otherwise generally well informed error and wild speculation.  In the case of WCML you obviously remember clearly back to the 1960's, perhaps that is when you had last use the GEML?

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2 minutes ago, Bomag said:

 

I see that Flood got the joke. Four years is not a brief period, it was twice as long as the period where there was a change of loco at Ipswich. Also your original post quoted Class 37s, which had been almost complete replaced by 47s in the early 1970's .

 

There is a difference between an otherwise generally well informed error and wild speculation.  In the case of WCML you obviously remember clearly back to the 1960's, perhaps that is when you had last use the GEML?

 

Joke? Ok... I can't see the funny side. The reason the Cobblers got their name is they originated in Northampton and that was once the largest shoe and boot manufacturing area in the World. I can't see the connection to the GEML, but anyway...

 

I corrected that point about 37/47 well before you posted your comment.

 

What has 1960s WCML got to do with it? The name 'Cobbler' was a term attached to one (originally two) semi-fast Northampton- London and return services. They continued until around 1989, though the name disappeared entirely with the introduction of the 321s.

 

As it happens, I last used the GEML in 2018. I don't see the relevance.

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When I started work at Wembley Depot in August 1989, the Mark 3 sets we maintained retained BGs for Guard and luggage. From memory, it was late 1989 / early 1990 when DVTs were put on the sets but at first they were used as hauled stock. During the course of 1990, they were commissioned for push/pull use. 

The DVT test train, headcode 1T26 from memory, had a timetabled path from Wembley Depot to Crewe and return and was used to commission the TDM system on DVTs and electric locos as required. We kept a rake of five Mark 3 sleeping cars (still blue/grey) in a siding at the south end of the depot for use on the test train as required. Unconfirmed rumours exist that on occasion, the test train was run if the Technical Office staff fancied lunch in a pub near Crewe....

Wembley Tech Office also provided a DVT Flying Squad, where they could dash off to deal with TDM issues at a moment's notice. Sadly the car was not a Mark 1 Ford Consul / Granada, but a Vauxhall Astra estate. Cannot be sure but think it was leased from a company in Stoke, possibly with a local "DVT" registration. I can confirm that the Flying Squad car went back off lease during the time of the 1990 World Cup competition "Italia 90"; I was on a management training course at a hotel near Bolton for a week, and the Tech Office Manager brought the car to the training so as to return it to Stoke at the end of the week. Every evening the car was used to take some of us from the hotel to a pub - usually driven by me as I was teetotal at the time. The conclusion can therefore be made that the West Coast DVT fleet was mostly running well and in normal service by mid 1990.

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6 hours ago, Derekstuart said:

 

Hello 125. Don't forget that the Ipswich- Norwich part of the line was still in the hands of 37s and, if they were very lucky, a 47(s). It seems that full electrification coincided with the DBSOs, though others may be aware of a crossover era where electrics ran through before the DBSOs arrived.

 

There was definitely a period of 86 haulage to Norwich before push-pull was introduced.

I remember being at Norwich & seeing 86s on the Norwich end (On the Anglia Push-pull services, the 86s were at the London end), following the train out by about 10-20 yards. I guess it would have waited at the end of the platform for clearance into the yard, but I was at the wrong end of the platform to see that. I didn't wonder where the DBSO was. I had never seen one at the time.

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On 22/11/2020 at 23:24, Pete the Elaner said:

 

There was definitely a period of 86 haulage to Norwich before push-pull was introduced.

I remember being at Norwich & seeing 86s on the Norwich end (On the Anglia Push-pull services, the 86s were at the London end), following the train out by about 10-20 yards. I guess it would have waited at the end of the platform for clearance into the yard, but I was at the wrong end of the platform to see that. I didn't wonder where the DBSO was. I had never seen one at the time.

Many thanks for that, Pete. I remember the DBSOs well from Scotrail days. I thought they were ready before they put the electrics through to Norwich, although Bomag so 'eloquently' informed me this was not the case- though I am fairly sure that was the plan before they were delayed on their journey South and undoubtedly further delayed whilst they were converting from FDM to TDM systems.

 

Good old days. Gone forever.

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On 21/11/2020 at 16:18, 125_driver said:

Can anyone give an approximate date when the DVTs began to work the majority of WCML trains? Wikipedia suggests they were built in 1988 but i believe there were a few problems before they started regularly working trains. 

In essence I'm trying to work out when old fashioned loco haulage with an engine always at the front ended on west coast. Was it as late as 1990?

 

Thanks if anyone can help!

I read the initial Investment Case for the DVTs in October 1985, so their gestation was lengthy, given that they did not have motors. 

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On 22/11/2020 at 22:26, adb968008 said:

Slightly off topic, but I recall seeing trains in formation of car carrying too in the form  of:

 

Motorail Guvs + 87 + mk3+DVT

 

on a few occasions.

 

 

That would've been quite common as the GUVs weren't fitted with train lighting control cables, which is what were used to transmit the push-pull TDM signal, so could not be marshaled within the push-pull formation and had to be behind the loco instead.

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On 22/11/2020 at 22:26, adb968008 said:

Slightly off topic, but I recall seeing trains in formation of car carrying too in the form  of:

 

Motorail Guvs + 87 + mk3+DVT

 

on a few occasions.

 

Yes, I remember those too, looked really odd. Does anyone know what the working was?

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16 minutes ago, ColinK said:

Yes, I remember those too, looked really odd. Does anyone know what the working was?

 

Yes, I remember thinking it looked odd too at first, then realized why it could only be done that way (as posted above)

 

So basically, it would have been any push-pull working which also conveyed Motorail traffic

In the opposite direction they'd be behind the DVT

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8 hours ago, ColinK said:

Yes, I remember those too, looked really odd. Does anyone know what the working was?

 

It started running like that around 1992.

Northbound I believe it was the 8:35 off Euston conveying cars to Carlisle and Edinburgh.  I have memories of there being separate southbound workings but I don't know if that was the schedule or a result of delays and something left Carlisle at around 5:30pm. 

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On 22/11/2020 at 18:13, Bomag said:

The DVTs (and DBSO) allowed much greater stock utilisation (by about 10%) and loco utilisation (by about 20%), the first by speeding up turn around times and the latter by not having to have one loco stuck at the blocks until the train had left. I believe the Birmingham and Wolverhampton sets were done first (21 of the first 31 in service on 1/1/90 were allocated to Oxley) was that as the trips were shorter they had more turn-arrounds per diagram and would have the greatest benefit in terms of time saved. Also I believe that with the loco swaps for NWSW cross county trains loco storage at BNS was at premium and that Wolverhampton was not much better.

 

Loco storage at Birmingham and Wolverhampton was not an issue for the terminating Euston's as these were booked to use the incoming locomotive for the return trip.  At New St the locomotive ran round in the station which could be a nuisance at busier times as it required a reversal on the Stour lines at each end and a free platform line for the locomotive to run through.  At Wolverhampton the stock was booked to work to Oxley after arrival and the locomotive ran round there.

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7 hours ago, DY444 said:

 

Loco storage at Birmingham and Wolverhampton was not an issue for the terminating Euston's as these were booked to use the incoming locomotive for the return trip.  At New St the locomotive ran round in the station which could be a nuisance at busier times as it required a reversal on the Stour lines at each end and a free platform line for the locomotive to run through.  At Wolverhampton the stock was booked to work to Oxley after arrival and the locomotive ran round there.

Spagheti junction wasnt just on the M6.

I recall spotting on a summer saturday and a class 46 had been commandeered for driver training.. about every hour it would appear out of the tunnels at New Street, it came every which way but from above.

Often apparently going in circles as it appeared more than once at the same track in the same direction.

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