purplepiepete Posted November 22, 2020 Share Posted November 22, 2020 This is probably stating the b. obvious, but beware when buying secondhand K&L / C&L plastic chairs unless you want to end up with a pile of broken bits ! I recently aquired a large quantity off a well know auction site only to find the plastic had hardened and degraded so badly that, upon trying to thread them onto rail, most of them just fall apart. My bad as they say, and I doubt there is any way of 'softening these' (without melting them !), but if anyone has any suggestions (other than binning the lot and buy new !) then I would welcome them. Many Thanks ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Neil Posted November 22, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 22, 2020 Dunk in warm water perhaps? Maybe try a few before submerging the lot in a hot bath. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
purplepiepete Posted November 22, 2020 Author Share Posted November 22, 2020 Neil, Thanks for the suggestion. I did wonder about that, or maybe even a brief 'warming' in the microwave, but considered that a bit too risky ! I'll give it a go in a tea mug, one sprue at a time. The failure rate is 50%+ so anything is worth a shot even though I didn't pay that much and, in theory, have enough spare. Once on the rail they are ok and take the solvent as long as only slight pressure is applied to attached them to the sleepers. Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkC Posted November 22, 2020 Share Posted November 22, 2020 Can you not give them a thin butanone wash whilst still on the sprue, then let them dry off again fully before cutting them off & using them? Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Rowsley17D Posted November 22, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 22, 2020 You might need some half chairs for points etc so don't through them all away. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
purplepiepete Posted November 23, 2020 Author Share Posted November 23, 2020 14 hours ago, MarkC said: Can you not give them a thin butanone wash whilst still on the sprue, then let them dry off again fully before cutting them off & using them? Mark Mark, that's a possible option thanks and will initially soften them at least. I find it a lot easier to thread chairs onto the rail whilst still on the sprue though - unless there is a technique I have missed ! Pete Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
purplepiepete Posted November 23, 2020 Author Share Posted November 23, 2020 14 hours ago, Rowsley17D said: You might need some half chairs for points etc so don't through them all away. Thanks Rowsley, I would normally do that but all the turnouts are built. Just need to do the plain track (onto ply sleepers) which does require a lot of chairs. Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted November 23, 2020 Share Posted November 23, 2020 Pete I have come across this issue before, I have been told this is due to the plastic becoming too hot during the injection process, and may be due to early injection moulding machines either being set too high or overheating. If its got K&L on the packet they are 40+ years old. The system obtains its strength not from individual chairs but the group as a whole, so should be fine but frustrating to use I myself will only buy very cheap ones on eBay for this reason (not just plastic chairs but most other items), if you buy new from the supplier you have a guarantee to fall back on. All is not lost, firstly pre-prepare the rail a bit more, slide the chairs on that dont break and or mix in some new ones. If you can get one chair per three sleepers/timbers you can set the rail in place and add half chairs to the others after. A bit of a pain ,and the only real loss is your own time As it is I have loads of half chairs (inners and outers) on used special chair sprues which I will use on my own turnouts rather than dispose of them. See it rather than a loss its just a bit of added inconvenience 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Izzy Posted November 23, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 23, 2020 I still have lots of the early production chairs, some in the original grey. It’s a mixed picture for me on breakage. The grey are no more prone than later ones, but I do find one hand worse than the other, go figure! I wonder, do the later production/latest chairs still have the round gap so they can be cut in two and placed around rivets? This could be another source of weakness over time. I say this because I have some 7mm chairs I have just used - probably 25/30 years old- and had no issues at all, fitted on the rail quite tightly and none broke. They of course have a more substantial base, no need to fit around rivets etc. Just a thought. Izzy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
purplepiepete Posted November 23, 2020 Author Share Posted November 23, 2020 1 hour ago, hayfield said: Pete I have come across this issue before, I have been told this is due to the plastic becoming too hot during the injection process, and may be due to early injection moulding machines either being set too high or overheating. If its got K&L on the packet they are 40+ years old. The system obtains its strength not from individual chairs but the group as a whole, so should be fine but frustrating to use I myself will only buy very cheap ones on eBay for this reason (not just plastic chairs but most other items), if you buy new from the supplier you have a guarantee to fall back on. All is not lost, firstly pre-prepare the rail a bit more, slide the chairs on that dont break and or mix in some new ones. If you can get one chair per three sleepers/timbers you can set the rail in place and add half chairs to the others after. A bit of a pain ,and the only real loss is your own time As it is I have loads of half chairs (inners and outers) on used special chair sprues which I will use on my own turnouts rather than dispose of them. See it rather than a loss its just a bit of added inconvenience John, I suspected this topic had previously arisen, primarily because a lot of 'secondhand' C&L (and earlier) items appear on eBay at, what seems initially anyway, a bargain price. In fact the ones I bought have Alan Gibson packaging so they may well be 40+ years old which is quite a surprise. It's no wonder that the plastic has degraded somewhat ! Anyway, good suggestion re mixing these in old / new / half chair combinations. The only slight concern is that does this still work ok when forming curves, or is there a danger that the gauging can 'slip' if the chairs don't hold the rail fully ? Assume this may not be a concern as long as the majority are set correctly and curves formed correctly. As an aside, not sure whether it is best with custom-made curves to set one side, leave to dry, set the other side, curve to shape then lay, or lay with one side done, set the curve then lay the other rail 'in-situ'. With flexi-track this is obvious, but with custom made I guess this also depends on the sleeper base type - in my case it's mostly with pre-formed thin ply panels, but I also have some individual ply sleepers to use with a template. Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
purplepiepete Posted November 23, 2020 Author Share Posted November 23, 2020 1 hour ago, Izzy said: I still have lots of the early production chairs, some in the original grey. It’s a mixed picture for me on breakage. The grey are no more prone than later ones, but I do find one hand worse than the other, go figure! I wonder, do the later production/latest chairs still have the round gap so they can be cut in two and placed around rivets? This could be another source of weakness over time. I say this because I have some 7mm chairs I have just used - probably 25/30 years old- and had no issues at all, fitted on the rail quite tightly and none broke. They of course have a more substantial base, no need to fit around rivets etc. Just a thought. Izzy Izzy, In my case I think it's a mix of age and early moulding issues. The chairs do seem thin / brittle around the base and break in half (some worse than others) so I guess the injection process (whether heat/plastic type/moulding) was not quite what is it nowadays. I have also used older 7mm chairs on previous layouts (now converted to 4mm) and not had this problem, so agree it was a quality control and/or design issue on 4mm items. Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted November 23, 2020 Share Posted November 23, 2020 1 hour ago, purplepiepete said: John, I suspected this topic had previously arisen, primarily because a lot of 'secondhand' C&L (and earlier) items appear on eBay at, what seems initially anyway, a bargain price. In fact the ones I bought have Alan Gibson packaging so they may well be 40+ years old which is quite a surprise. It's no wonder that the plastic has degraded somewhat ! Anyway, good suggestion re mixing these in old / new / half chair combinations. The only slight concern is that does this still work ok when forming curves, or is there a danger that the gauging can 'slip' if the chairs don't hold the rail fully ? Assume this may not be a concern as long as the majority are set correctly and curves formed correctly. As an aside, not sure whether it is best with custom-made curves to set one side, leave to dry, set the other side, curve to shape then lay, or lay with one side done, set the curve then lay the other rail 'in-situ'. With flexi-track this is obvious, but with custom made I guess this also depends on the sleeper base type - in my case it's mostly with pre-formed thin ply panels, but I also have some individual ply sleepers to use with a template. Pete. Pete I think 1 in 3 is fine, but even every other one is better than not using them. It is highly likely that the inside of the curve will be the stress point, now especially with the keyed outer half ensure the key goes into the web. On one half you may even have to trim the base that goes under the rail slightly to ensure both parts but together. As I said an inconvenience more than anything else As for gauge slip on all but the tightest curves 1 in 3 should be fine. On straight track you should get away with 1-4/5, I always use a ruler on straight track to line it up anyway. If both sides fit snugly into the web they should work. I always lay one side first. let it dry then fix the other with gauges, but the gauges must not be too tight on the rail, the head needs to rotate in it whether its a full or half chair Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Izzy Posted November 23, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 23, 2020 I think the danger with the rail on the inside of curves is that it will always try and sit up straight, or even lean/cant outwards. Unless you are careful it can pull the inside chair base upwards due to the cant angle so I always arch the rail length a bit before attempting to curve to suit. The outer rail doesn’t need this of course it will just cant inwards as intended. It’s not the end of the world though, just gives a bit of gauge widening.... Izzy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
purplepiepete Posted November 23, 2020 Author Share Posted November 23, 2020 Thanks for the all the hints and tips, time to go and give it all a try Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkC Posted November 23, 2020 Share Posted November 23, 2020 7 hours ago, purplepiepete said: Mark, that's a possible option thanks and will initially soften them at least. I find it a lot easier to thread chairs onto the rail whilst still on the sprue though - unless there is a technique I have missed ! Pete Once they're dried off, Pete, then you should be able to follow your normal building routine, I would think. Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roythebus Posted November 23, 2020 Share Posted November 23, 2020 Semmingly asking the obvious, are you putting the rail in the right way up? Many of us have tried to thread chairs on rails then found the rail was wrong way up! Also file a slight taper on the end of the rail before threading chair, it makes life easier. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
purplepiepete Posted November 24, 2020 Author Share Posted November 24, 2020 15 hours ago, roythebus said: Semmingly asking the obvious, are you putting the rail in the right way up? Many of us have tried to thread chairs on rails then found the rail was wrong way up! Also file a slight taper on the end of the rail before threading chair, it makes life easier. Roy, yep always check that - and the taper - but it's a mistake I have made in the past, usually by not having my correct glasses on ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
purplepiepete Posted November 24, 2020 Author Share Posted November 24, 2020 Quick update - I tried the hot water (boiling in my case) soak and was surprised how effective this was. I didn't really expect ageing plastic to respond too well, but having put about 10 sprues (100 chairs) into a mug of boiling water, leave for about 5 mins, the chairs were a lot less brittle. Not sure how long they stay more pliable, or the optimum immersion / water temp time, but working quickly to thread them after careful recovery from the hot dipping they went on without too much breakage. Thanking Neil for the tip ! Pete. 1 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
purplepiepete Posted November 24, 2020 Author Share Posted November 24, 2020 21 hours ago, Izzy said: I think the danger with the rail on the inside of curves is that it will always try and sit up straight, or even lean/cant outwards. Unless you are careful it can pull the inside chair base upwards due to the cant angle so I always arch the rail length a bit before attempting to curve to suit. The outer rail doesn’t need this of course it will just cant inwards as intended. It’s not the end of the world though, just gives a bit of gauge widening.... Izzy Thanks Izzy, the curves should not be too severe (and in theory need a check rail) so hopefully will avoid this, but will take extra care on the inside rail and use the better quality chairs on that side to ensure a good chair to rail / sleeper grip. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
down the sdjr Posted December 28, 2020 Share Posted December 28, 2020 I have this problem with a bag I bought of an auction site, extremely brittle. Have been using them for half chairs, I will give the hot water tip a try. Thank you. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 57xx Posted December 28, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 28, 2020 On 24/11/2020 at 11:08, purplepiepete said: Quick update - I tried the hot water (boiling in my case) soak and was surprised how effective this was. I didn't really expect ageing plastic to respond too well, but having put about 10 sprues (100 chairs) into a mug of boiling water, leave for about 5 mins, the chairs were a lot less brittle. Not sure how long they stay more pliable, or the optimum immersion / water temp time, but working quickly to thread them after careful recovery from the hot dipping they went on without too much breakage. Interesting, I might have to try this on some Slaters wagon kits I got recently. The plastic is shockingly brittle (new stock, not 40 years old!) to the point it was almost impossible to cut some pieces off the sprue without breakage. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
purplepiepete Posted January 9, 2021 Author Share Posted January 9, 2021 On 28/12/2020 at 14:15, 57xx said: Interesting, I might have to try this on some Slaters wagon kits I got recently. The plastic is shockingly brittle (new stock, not 40 years old!) to the point it was almost impossible to cut some pieces off the sprue without breakage. Good to hear how you get on as not at all sure if it works for any/all plastic types. I am no expert but guess there are a number, ABS, nylon, polythene etc used for injection moulding ? Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 57xx Posted January 9, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 9, 2021 2 hours ago, purplepiepete said: Good to hear how you get on as not at all sure if it works for any/all plastic types. I am no expert but guess there are a number, ABS, nylon, polythene etc used for injection moulding ? Pete. Hi Pete, Unfortunately it didn't work. The second V hanger/brake lever also snapped. Not sure if I left it too long to cool down or not. Managed to glue it together again to be usable and went for single sided brake gear on this particular kit. cheers Ric Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
purplepiepete Posted January 10, 2021 Author Share Posted January 10, 2021 18 hours ago, 57xx said: Hi Pete, Unfortunately it didn't work. The second V hanger/brake lever also snapped. Not sure if I left it too long to cool down or not. Managed to glue it together again to be usable and went for single sided brake gear on this particular kit. cheers Ric Hi Ric, Ah that's a shame. Suspect it's down to the plastic type rather than the technique. Chairs, I think, are ABS - I did thread them very quickly onto the rail once they were out of the water, and did notice that they had hardened quickly on cooling, maybe a couple of minutes at most. Maybe worth another go and experiment with some scraps of sprue ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now