A definition of "van" please?

[chrisf]

brcoachingstock.groups.io

 

Chris

[Dunsignalling]

On 22/11/2020 at 17:24, Star-rider said:

Sorry if this is s primary school question (but I learn things by asking questions when I can’t find out for myself) - could anyone help me with a definition of “van” in a train formation please?

 

I’m using the Beckett book to get together some credible if not authentic train formations and as I interpret page 77 I believe the portion arriving in Wolverhampton from Shrewsbury would be:

 

1] Siphon G

2] Van

3] Full brake (non-corridor)

4] Siphon J

5] Brake Composite 70

6] Brake Third Corridor

7] Full Brake

 

Could anyone tell me what the “van” is likely to be – a suggestion of a suitable diagram reference may avoid my follow-up question 

 

Thanks.

I recall asking a similar question at a GWS meeting donkey's years ago, though with an emphasis on passenger-carrying stock.

 

The various replies added up to an explanation of the difference between a brake third and a van third. 

 

In essence, a brake third includes accommodation for the guard but only a limited amount of luggage/parcels capacity. In a van third, the guard/cargo accommodation takes up at least half the body length. Thus a 6-compartment brake third is called exactly that, but a 4-compartment one is referred to as a van third.

 

Hope this helps.

 

John

Edited November 23, 2020 by Dunsignalling

[The Stationmaster]

On 22/11/2020 at 18:56, chrisf said:

This is a question that has baffled me for years.  It appears to me that if the expressions "Van" or "Large Van" are used it could be anything.  Where somethng more specific is used, eg "Full Brake", "Siphon G", "Siphon J", "Fruit D" or "GUV", there is an operational reason for specifying that particular type of van.  Then there are some baffling expressions.  What, for example, is a "News Van"?  Smart-alec answer: a van large enough to carry lots of newspapers.  There used to be a couple of full brakes branded to work between Paddington and Paignton.  Their numbers were, I think, quoted in the carriage working programme.  The same applied to the Siphons G allocated to the Paddington - Penzance Postal.  On the other hand, a brand applied to a van restricting it to a particular working was no guarantee that anyone would take a blind bit of notice.  Why otherwise would a Siphon G branded to work between Whitland and Kensington be loaded with flowers at Weymouth?

 

Chris 

I agree almost entirely with Chris except in respect of News Vans because that was what they were - vans deliberately set aside for news traffic and important to be kept available for that traffic which was high revenue and subject to timekeeping penalties so it needed vehicles in good condition. 

[watfordtmc]

To throw my pennyworth in the ring:

 

Branch Lines to Chard contains a facsimile of the front cover of the:

Programme shewing the

Working of Passenger Coaches

Rail Motors and Auto Cars

Parcels and Stores Vans

(etc)

Exeter & Plymouth Divisions

September 23rd, 1929

(ufn)

 

Under ‘Formation of Trains’ this notes that:

 

“2.        (a) Brake Thirds with Van-ends are described as Van Thirds:

            (b) Brake Thirds with Brake Compartment in the centre are described as Brake Thirds.”

 

(Irrelevant thought: Does this mean that when BR Mk1’s were allocated to the GW region, BTK’s, where the Guard’s compartment, and hand brake were towards the centre of the coach were described as ‘Brake Thirds’, but BCK’s, where the Guard’s compartment and hand brake were towards one end of the coach were ‘Van Composites’?)

 

I have wondered if this distinction harks back to the days when some brake coaches were built with a central(ish) brake compartment, enclosed on both sides by passenger compartments.

 

Ref: Branch Lines to Chard, Harrison I, Lightmoor Press 2019 (pp 307).

 

Regards

TMc

25/11/2020

[Dunsignalling]

BR Mk1s, and indeed many GWR-built coaches, post-date 1929 by some margin, and the definitions may well have been changed in the meantime. The definition in my earlier post was obtained from gentlemen whose railway service dated from the late thirties at the earliest, and largely post-WW2.

 

Where in the vehicle the guard sat had no operational relevance, but the division of space between passenger accommodation and capacity for luggage, parcels, etc. undoubtedly did. I would therefore expect a BR Mk1 BTK/BSK to be rated as a van third/van second, and a BCK as a Brake Composite, in the same way as (AFAIK) were Collett and Hawksworth vehicles of generally similar layout. A Mk1 BSO, having a short van like the BCK should (if the WR had any, did they?) be a Brake Second. 

 

The distinction was less relevant on the LMR and SR where van sizes were (generally) more consistent, the SR kept their (relatively few) equivalents of "van thirds" off crowded commuter routes simply by allocating them to the "Withered Arm" and the Somerset & Dorset line. How the LNER/ER, where van sizes could vary from around 20% to 80% in extreme examples, dealt with the issue must have been more tricky. I suspect they would have adopted a roughly similar policy to the Southern.  

 

There was also (for many years) a regulation that the coach ends at either end of trains (with some exemptions for branch lines operated at low speed IIRC) should not contain passenger compartments in order to provide a safety zone in event of accident. "Brake" thirds seem to have comprised the minimum proportion of van to comply with that. Coaches with vans in the centre clearly did not do so in any way, which is presumably why the layout fell out of favour for new construction even before the grouping.

 

Judging from post-war photographs of GWR/WR trains, quite a few of which show van ends marshalled "inside", the restriction must have been relaxed somewhat, presumably because steel-bodied coaches had come to dominate faster services.

 

John

 

  

Edited November 25, 2020 by Dunsignalling

[Star-rider]

I have just finally assembled this train formation and this post is really to tie up various loose ends and bring together some topics and questions that I had asked relating to the individual coach builds as noted below. Once again thanks to those who offered help and advice on the individual threads.

 

 I was seeking to build credible rather than factual train formations to run on my railway and referring to “Train formations and carriage workings of the Great Western Railway by WS Beckett” a portion of the 21:50 Shrewsbury to Paddington service looked as if it would provide something interesting passing through the West Midlands. This is what I have arrived at:

 

1] Siphon G – An out of the box Mainline outside framed model with 3D printed bogies from SRMW / Shapeways

 

2] Van – I asked for a definition of “van” and several offers came along! I decided to utilise a Lima inside framed Siphon G that I had to hand, again it was fitted with replacement SRMW / Shapeways bogies that gave me the benefit of an NEM coupling pocket. Having invested a few quid on the bogies I am now slightly miffed to find that Accurascale are bringing out a newly tooled high spec model this year, I have one on order now which will replace the one I have.

 

3] Full Brake (non-corridor) I chose a K40 for this, I had something that I had previously built by using Comet sides to overlay an Airfix suburban coach but I was never really happy with it. After spending some time trying to get it right I abandoned it and built it as a complete kit, finishing just this week. As is my usual practice I robbed an Airfix suburban coach of its bogies rather than build the Comet ones. A tie rod between the axle boxes was formed from wire. In truth there is still a bit to do, some handrails require fitting once I have acquired a jig.

 

4] Siphon J The big task here was actually getting my hands on something to work with. SRMW offer 3D printed components to build something but the cost was above what I was prepared to invest. Patience paid off though and after regular searching on Ebay I was able to pounce on part built Blacksmith kit after an aggressive bid. SRMW once again got my business for the bogies though.

 

5] Brake Composite (70) Another tricky vehicle to source – I was aware that Haye Developments produced an E117 but like the Siphon J above it was no longer commercially available. Once again I got lucky with an Ebay purchase although I needed a considerable amount of advice from RM Web contributors to get it together. Much of the underframe was missing so some generic brass channel and turnbuckle trusses from Comet were utilised. The coach rides on 9’ American bogies from SRMW. As no roof was included with the kit I purchased and the standard Comet GWR extrusion did not fit an MJT LNER roof came to the rescue. The previous owner of the kit had soldered the droplights in place so I was left with no alternative but to try to paint them insitu, I much prefer to pre-paint droplights and add them later.

 

6] Brake Third Corridor This was easy, nothing to see here… An out of the box Hornby Collett bow-ender to diagram D95 of fairly recent tooling.

 

7] Full Brake I purchased a Frogmore K36 (really just sides and ends) for this as I had not built one of their kits and it gave a bit of variety being a toplight design. It did not go together too badly. Once again I used a Comet chassis and put some turnbuckle trussing under it, this time from an MJT etch. SRMW Fishbelly bogies were purchased from Shapeways to sit it all on. An all-over brown paint job was applied which I think is OK for a full brake in this period.

 

I’ve had the whole ensemble out today for the first time. It ran much more smoothly than I ever dared hope, in fact an aging Hornby Prairie (not the recent tooling) that is about to get its redundancy notice pulled it round nicely without tripping up or stalling, there’s a fair bit of metal in this train so it’s a bit of a load.

 

I can’t get a decent photo of the whole thing together so I have done a short video of it passing by hauled by a Dapol Mogul if it is of interest to anyone – sorry about the quality, I don’t really have any proper video equipment.

 

https://youtu.be/jgplBcjOAd4