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As far as I know the casings were made in house at the various works although the burners might have been bought it. The casing is a fairly straightforward tinsmithing job. Quite a lot if things were made in house, there is a cast iron hole punch in my desk at work which certainly had a BR catalogue number and was reportedly made by one or other of the works. It has outlasted many others ovr the years. 

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I think some were made, and repaired, at Horwich works. I remember, back in the 70's, my dad (a railway employee) finding a tail lamp in the undergrowth near Horwich station, and taking it to the works for repair.

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About the only stuff BR bought in was basic stationary and stuff which would have been fairly standard across other industries/trades. However they employed all their own trades people such as decorating gangs, plumbers and electricians, even printing was done in house as far as I remember. So the idea of making their own tail lamps entirely fits, particularly at a place like Horwich.

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Not necessarily. A lot od BR - and previously LMS and LNWR - printing was done at McCorquodales at Newton-le-Willows station. Part of their premises had been the Legh Arms Hotel, which had doubled as the station waiting room in Liverpool & Manchester Railway days. This became a new build pub (still standing, but now flats) at the bottom of the station drive when the printers took over the original premises.

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3 hours ago, LMS2968 said:

Not necessarily. A lot od BR - and previously LMS and LNWR - printing was done at McCorquodales at Newton-le-Willows station. Part of their premises had been the Legh Arms Hotel, which had doubled as the station waiting room in Liverpool & Manchester Railway days. This became a new build pub (still standing, but now flats) at the bottom of the station drive when the printers took over the original premises.

And the GWR used a variety of printers over the years, particularly for any bound items such as the Rule Book and General Appendix etc and for pads where the top of each sheet was o hled by adhesive to form the actual pad.  So, for example and without looking too far I have 1930s GWR items printed by Waterlow, Chance & Head (of Gloucester); my 1877 GW&LNW Joint Rule Book was printed n by McCorQuodale.;my 1891 GWR STT was printed by Judd & Co; my 1908 L&R Handbill in respect of trains and fares for Pendleton Races was printed by Blacklock & Co.

 

ll the forms I have had quick look look - mainly LNWR, GWR 1930s, and SR 1930s have stationery numbers on them but in some cases the letters included in the whole number suggest they were printed by outside contractors whilst some - on non-coloured paper in the case of the LNWR 1870s Grande Vitesse consignment note/Customs declaration suggest that it might have been printed by the company itself.

 

One thing which is certain is that the railway companies at the widest extent provided employment for a considerable part of the printing industry and that of course continued into the 21st century although I ended printing our (WR) freight WTTs by outside printers in the early 1990s. 

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TTBOMK, BR's oil lamps were produced in-house as were the reservoirs, but the burners were outsourced.  The electric 'Bardic' lamps were of course outsourced, and I wish I had kept mine; a superb product which once got accidentally dropped off a train at speed.  I managed to recover it later in the day, and it was barely scratched.  Battery tail lamps were being trialled in the 70s during my time on the railway, and were massive great lumps of kit, much bigger and heavier than the oil lamps.   Modern ones are a great improvement!

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In the early days of privatisation I sat in on a pitch from a manufacturer of plastic torches which were brighter, lighter, and easier to carry than a Bardic, and used standard batteries. Colour changing was by means of removeable and easily lost lens caps and it was generally a poor bit of kit.  The HQ Trains Manager vetoed any purchase on the grounds that it was useless for fending off drunks. 

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As an aside, when did BR stop issuing oil handlamps (as opposed to head/tail/guards van lamps) to staff? I have one such thing, black, with large square glass in 3 sides, and a silver reflective back to the burner, with a BR arrow embossed in it, which dates it to ~post-1966.

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Bardics were certainly the norm by 1970; I never saw anyone using an oil hand lamp in my entire railway career.  The Bardics had a fitting on the back enabling them to be used on a bracket as a tail or head lamp if needed, but they couldn't be used as a brake van side lamp.  There were two sorts, traincrew/shunters with red/clear/green shades, and signalmens, with an additional yellow shade.  The shades were on a shaft and were revolved in front of the bulb by a lever on top of the lamp. 
 

The oil tail, side, and head lamps had reservoir for 24 hours burn time with the correct wick trim of ¼ inch, but I’d turn mine up a little if the van was a rough rider (you could tell this because the lamp brackets woul have shaken loose) to lessen the likelihood of the violent rocking knocking the flame out.  If you overdid this the lamp burned smoky and obscured itself.  The brake van carried a reserve of paraffin, usually in a milk bottle. 

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The Bardics were all the same for both train crew and signalmen except for one component: the selector for the different shades. The Bobbies' had a knob with four short blades which would turn through 360 degrees and so give all four shades (one being clear), while train crews' had a single longer lever which impinged  on the handle and prevented the yellow shade from being selected.

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4 hours ago, LMS2968 said:

The Bardics were all the same for both train crew and signalmen except for one component: the selector for the different shades. The Bobbies' had a knob with four short blades which would turn through 360 degrees and so give all four shades (one being clear), while train crews' had a single longer lever which impinged  on the handle and prevented the yellow shade from being selected.

As a driver I only ever had Bardics that showed a yellow aspect as well. I've still got mine!

 

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Could do with a clean though! 
 

Andi

Edited by Dagworth
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15 hours ago, LMS2968 said:

The Bardics were all the same for both train crew and signalmen except for one component: the selector for the different shades. The Bobbies' had a knob with four short blades which would turn through 360 degrees and so give all four shades (one being clear), while train crews' had a single longer lever which impinged  on the handle and prevented the yellow shade from being selected.

The 4 colour Bardics were only supposed to be issued to Signalmen and people who were likely to be required to undertake handsignalling duties because they were the only people who needed a lamp capable of showing yellow.  But as instanced above no doubt other folk got them if the correct version wasn't available - the important thing was to make sure that those who needed the yellow aspect got the right lamp.

 

The three colour version with the lever switch was cleverly designed for use by staff controlling shunting as you didn't need to use your other hand to change the colour but could flick the lever over with your finger while still holding the handle of the lamp.  In that respect it was even better than an oil handlamp used to control shunting because you could always guarantee that it would show the correct colour whereas twisting the handle of an oil handlamp was something of an art and could go wrong - especially if you needed a green light when shunting (or a red light if things were not going as they should!).

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Well it's gone off topic a bit, but thanks for the replies. Two points re Bardics, one is that the batteries were deliberately unique to stop people getting batteries from the stores for home use (it also made nicking a lamp relatively pointless), and secondly *in theory* only Guards should have had the yellow aspect (which was actually redundant by 1979 when I passed out, hence I guess why they ended up everywhere).

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21 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

And the GWR used a variety of printers over the years, particularly for any bound items such as the Rule Book and General Appendix etc and for pads where the top of each sheet was o hled by adhesive to form the actual pad.  So, for example and without looking too far I have 1930s GWR items printed by Waterlow, Chance & Head (of Gloucester); my 1877 GW&LNW Joint Rule Book was printed n by McCorQuodale.;my 1891 GWR STT was printed by Judd & Co; my 1908 L&R Handbill in respect of trains and fares for Pendleton Races was printed by Blacklock & Co.

 

ll the forms I have had quick look look - mainly LNWR, GWR 1930s, and SR 1930s have stationery numbers on them but in some cases the letters included in the whole number suggest they were printed by outside contractors whilst some - on non-coloured paper in the case of the LNWR 1870s Grande Vitesse consignment note/Customs declaration suggest that it might have been printed by the company itself.

 

One thing which is certain is that the railway companies at the widest extent provided employment for a considerable part of the printing industry and that of course continued into the 21st century although I ended printing our (WR) freight WTTs by outside printers in the early 1990s. 

My SR Rule book (dated 1933/reprinted 1945 ) has "Printed by Waterlow & Sons Limited, London and Dunstable" on the inside back cover.

30 minutes ago, Miserable said:

Well it's gone off topic a bit, but thanks for the replies. Two points re Bardics, one is that the batteries were deliberately unique to stop people getting batteries from the stores for home use (it also made nicking a lamp relatively pointless), and secondly *in theory* only Guards should have had the yellow aspect (which was actually redundant by 1979 when I passed out, hence I guess why they ended up everywhere).

As others have said, Yellow is used by handsignallers, for Temporary Speed Restrictions, Handsignalling past a defective Distant signal at 'caution', and handsignalling past a defective colour-light signal (I believe on NR these days Yellow is also used at semaphore stop signals as well, for consistency)

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Guards did not need, and were not normally issued with, lamps that could show a yellow aspect, and there was no part of a guard’s duty that required a yellow aspect to be shown.  Traincrew (and guards were considered part of traincrew) were all issued with the red/clear/green lever on the top version; drivers, secondmen, guards, conductor guards, and shunters all carried this lamp.  As Mike says, there was nothing to stop them being issued with the signalmans’ version if there was a shortage of the proper lamp, but you had to check you were showing the correct aspect!  
 

The lamp was used as a general torch as well as for hand signalling shunting movements and giving the ‘right away’ or ‘tip’ that confirmed to the driver that you were aboard your van and that he could proceed.  
 

It was also used by guards for giving the ‘inside clear’ tip to the bobby on entering loops, important if an express was up your.... I mean close behind you, so that he could reset the road and clear signals for it before it sighted his distant and give it an un delayed clear run.  Another use was as general illumination inside the guard’s van, but I preferred to keep this to a minimum to preserve my night vision, which was pretty good back in the day!

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I was a guard and then signalman, so I'm pretty au fait with the regs c. 1980. FWIW the guard was required to ring the signalman when the train had arrived in a loop (where the bobby couldn't see the tail lamp themselves) and report 'Train arrived complete with tail lamp' before the bobby could give 2-1 ('Train out of section') . If I had £1 for every Guard who then walked back a actually checked the lamp was there (which was entirely unnecessary) I'd be rich - there was no hand or lamp signal for doing such.

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3 hours ago, Miserable said:

I was a guard and then signalman, so I'm pretty au fait with the regs c. 1980. FWIW the guard was required to ring the signalman when the train had arrived in a loop (where the bobby couldn't see the tail lamp themselves) and report 'Train arrived complete with tail lamp'...

And where there was no phone you waved a bardic, or your arm. Or very occasionally the actual tail lamp.

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3 hours ago, Miserable said:

I was a guard and then signalman, so I'm pretty au fait with the regs c. 1980. FWIW the guard was required to ring the signalman when the train had arrived in a loop (where the bobby couldn't see the tail lamp themselves) and report 'Train arrived complete with tail lamp' before the bobby could give 2-1 ('Train out of section') . If I had £1 for every Guard who then walked back a actually checked the lamp was there (which was entirely unnecessary) I'd be rich - there was no hand or lamp signal for doing such.

I was referring to practice on brake vans when you could see the box; on fully fitted trains this would not apply and the signalman relied on the track circuit indicator, as he did in an an MAS panel box. 
 

A fully fitted train must of necessity be ‘complete’ as the automatic brake would have been applied fully as soon as the brake pipe parted as it divided, but this does not mean that the lamp is lit when it should be and the guard is at the wrong end of the train to confirm this.  The ‘right away/I’m aboard the van’ tip was an up and down swing signal with a white light, and the ‘inside clear’ tip was a wrist action twisting movement suggestive of turnouts being thrown, IIRC with a green light.  A green light  in shunting meant ‘slow down’; red of course meant only one thing wherever and whoever was showing it under all circumstances!  
 

So, in shunting at night, the sequence of calling a loco or loco and cut of wagons back on to a train would be a white light swung side to side, then a green light side to side as the gap closed, then a red light as the buffers contacted.  You would leave the lamp on the ground pointing at the loco if you had to go ‘between’, to couple brake pipes or tighten a screw coupling for example.  One could establish an almost supernatural ‘feel’ control over the loco using the driver as a sort of conduit between you and it’s controls.  Walking towards the wagons you were to couple to with the Bardic in your hand showing green and pointing to the loco perhaps 30 wagons behind you as it paced you walking speed exactly always gave me a feeling, illusory if course but that never affected my enjoyment of it, of immense superhuman power!!!

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18 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

red of course meant only one thing wherever and whoever was showing it under all circumstances!  

You are forgetting a hand signal. A red light raised up and down vertically above shoulder level. “Create vacuum”

 
http://www.alextrack.co.uk/railways/sdrht/rule_book/hand_signals.shtml

 

Andi

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23 hours ago, Miserable said:

Well it's gone off topic a bit, but thanks for the replies. Two points re Bardics, one is that the batteries were deliberately unique to stop people getting batteries from the stores for home use (it also made nicking a lamp relatively pointless), and secondly *in theory* only Guards should have had the yellow aspect (which was actually redundant by 1979 when I passed out, hence I guess why they ended up everywhere).

Guards had no need at all for a lamp which could show a yellow light. - all they needed was a lamp which could show white, red, or green because there was never an instance in the Rules where they were required to give a yellow handsignal.

 

And alas you could never guarantee a fully fitted train to be complete unless you saw the tail lamp or if there was continuous track circuiting (and in one incident I know of although the tail lamp was there on the last vehicle the train wasn't actually complete!  Nor could you absolutely guarantee that the auto brake would apply if a fully fitted freight divided -  and I saw one instance where that actually happened with the front portion running more than a dozen miles until it only came to a stand when it reached its destination and the Driver applied the brake.

 

A signal engineer friend of mine tried to gain acceptance  of a lower cost version of track circuit block which didn't use continuous track circuits (or treadles etc) and carried out a comprehensive study in the early 1980s of the number of instances of fully fitted freight trains becoming divided and the national average on BR was c.2 per annum so visually making sure a train was complete remained very important unless somebody was prepared to accept a very small level of risk.

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