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Wrenn 2-6-4T chassis running problem


railroadbill
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Some years ago I bought this Wrenn 2-6-4T spare body, new, in a Wrenn box, which came with instruction booklet and peco type couplings.

 

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Several years ago I bought a Wrenn 2-6-4T off ebay, quite cheap really, with a red body, to provide a chassis.  It's obviously had some use, but not much play in wheels, valve gear etc. It does have what must have been mazac Hornby Dublo style  pony and bogie wheels, with  insulating bushes.

 

The loco ran but not too well. Got it out  again some time later to have another go,  ran it and noticed tiny sparks around the axle ends of the bogie  wheels. The insulation was obviously failing. 

 

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I took the pony truck and bogie off, and the loco ran much better as a 0-6-0!  So the basic mechanism is fine.

 

I have got some genuine replacement Wrenn insulating bushes, but it is probably easier to fit different pony/bogie wheels. I think it would look better with the plated Wrenn type later bogie wheels, or indeed finer scale ones.  I will then replace the body with the new BR black lined one.

 

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 EDL18, cast on the chassis, was also the reference number for the Hornby Dublo 3-rail tank, (1956/57 catalogue) which became 3218 for 3 rail and 2218 for 2 rail versions. This one  does have G&R Wrenn cast on it. I've seen pictures of H-D tanks with black plastic (or nylon?) wheels, and what I haven't been able to find out so far is if  Wrenn used up old H-D parts, presumably they would have done to start with, and if so why this chassis doesn't have plastic bogie wheels. they look like the original H-D 3-rail type (my H-D 3 rail locos have these, but I don't have a 3-r 2-6-4T to compare).

 

Any information gratefully received!

 

 

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The fact probably is that both front and rear Hornby Dublo 3 rail wheelsets, and bogie and pony truck frames, have been fitted, with the wheels modified to work on two rail. Probably to get the proper Hornby Dublo couplings...

 

Wrenn bogies and pony truck frames were modified  and came fitted with Tri-ang Hornby type MK3 tension lock couplings.

There was a brass rivet fitted. With the tension lock coupling removed, a modified plastic Hornby Dublo type coupling could be clipped over the rivet.

 

The Hornby Dublo type couplings were modified by having the centering lug cut off so as to leave an angled slot in the coupling to the fixing hole...

 

 

 

Edited by Ruffnut Thorston
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These are 3 rail pony and bogie with metal couplings and zinc alloy wheels. All Wrenn models had plastic HD type couplings or tension locks. Depending on the radius/track she is to run on, the options are HD nylon wheels, Wrenn metal tyred wheels or some proper scale 12mm 9 spoke wheels. Problems could follow from the metal couplings shorting to stock which is live to one of the rails. Insulating the pivot screw solves this.

Edited by Il Grifone
SWMBO called lunch and wouldn't take, "Just a minute" for an answer..
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Hi all,

The easy way to tell if you have a H/D or Wrenn body is that the H/D body has a small hole in the centre of the coal bunker. The Wrenn body does not. I can think of no reason why the hole is there but it is. Unless it was possible for clockwork. But it is in a bad position for that if it was. And yes to me in that they do look like origional H/D wheels and bogies. I have just had a similar problem with a Wrenn castle and went with plastic wheels until the new wheels I have ordered from Peters Spares arrive.

I suppose that it may have been that some one had re wheeled all their stock but kept the old style couplings. hence the need for re wheeled H/D bogie and pony trucks. Just a thought.

Edited by cypherman
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38 minutes ago, cypherman said:

I can think of no reason why the hole is there but it is. Unless it was possible for clockwork. But it is in a bad position for that if it was.

It was for an adjusting screw for what was called a magnetic shunt to help with slow speed but I don't think it was successful so the device was removed but the hole was left in the body. 

 

Garry 

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Thanks to everyone for the replies on this, I knew the information would be available on here!

 

Does look like this is a strangely modified chassis.  Probably why it was so cheap!  But it does work once I took the bogie and pony trucks off...

I don't need to turn this  into an "authentic" Wrenn chassis,  just want to have a working one to fit the spare Wrenn body on and run it on the layout.  So fitting scale diameter wheels will do the trick.  Finer bogie wheels usually make locos look better anyway,  they draw the eye away from other blemishes!

 

And useful points by Ruffnut Thorston  about how the couplings were fitted on Wrenn locos, I'll have to replace the H-D couplings with tension lock ones, as it happens the new body had spare H-D ones in the box but not tension locks, have a variety of those left...

 

Thanks again, have some H_D 3 rail stock and track boxed away, (but not the 2-6-4T), this is my one and only Wrenn loco for the current layout (or will be when the wheels and body are changed).

 

 

p.s. Both the bodies (the new spare Wrenn and the tatty red one) don't have the rear bunker hole for magnetic  shunt.

Edited by railroadbill
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2 hours ago, railroadbill said:

Thanks to everyone for the replies on this, I knew the information would be available on here!

 

Does look like this is a strangely modified chassis.  Probably why it was so cheap!  But it does work once I took the bogie and pony trucks off...

I don't need to turn this  into an "authentic" Wrenn chassis,  just want to have a working one to fit the spare Wrenn body on and run it on the layout.  So fitting scale diameter wheels will do the trick.  Finer bogie wheels usually make locos look better anyway,  they draw the eye away from other blemishes!

 

And useful points by Ruffnut Thorston  about how the couplings were fitted on Wrenn locos, I'll have to replace the H-D couplings with tension lock ones, as it happens the new body had spare H-D ones in the box but not tension locks, have a variety of those left...

 

Thanks again, have some H_D 3 rail stock and track boxed away, (but not the 2-6-4T), this is my one and only Wrenn loco for the current layout (or will be when the wheels and body are changed).

 

 

p.s. Both the bodies (the new spare Wrenn and the tatty red one) don't have the rear bunker hole for magnetic  shunt.

Hi Railroad Bill,

The easiest way to replace the couplings is to drill out the brass rivets and then put small nut, bolt and washer in it's place. Then use the Hornby NEM couplings. The have a nice round hole in just the right place where the nut can go through. Clip it in place and tighten the nut and bolt making sure that the washer is below the coupling so that you get maximum purchase to hold it in place. I have pulled 15 wagons with no problems using the N2's I have. You are unlikely to be pulling much more than that.

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The bogie and pony wheel issue is not that simple, the wheels are the very small H/D type from the 1938 Duchess etc and there isn't enough clearance for 12mm bogie wheels without filing the chassis away.  The Wrenn metal tyre wheels look even worse than the plastic ones as the shiny tyre emphasises how small they are.  The rims also fall off and the centres crumble, the H/D 2 rail ones split through the middle they fall off the axles, as do the Wrenn ones.  One of mine runs very happily with bushed 3 rail wheels with insulating washers to keep the tyre off the bogie frame, the other has large chunks of the chassis ground away and ran 12mm wheels, probably Wrenn wagon wheels with the pin points filed off the axles. 

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Hi David,

There are some small Hornby wheels that are the right size but I cannot remember what they are off. The ones I have are in Malachite green. So it has to be off  something SR. You can also use the wheels off the Triang princess. The later one with the new couplings and see through wheels.

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For tension locks, it might be better to source Wrenn pony and bogie, as they are not straightforward to fit to the Dublo items, though a simple wire loop would do. The rivet will easily press out, though drilling is an alternative of course

The magnetic shunt worked as intended, giving a range of speeds with the original (rubbish IMHO) Dublo controller. They probably thought that she ran too fast for a mixed traffic locomotive despite having a higher gear reduction ratio than the earlier models. As I reached the age of eight years just after I got mine, I wound it right out! (It also reduced her haulage capacity. She would easily haul all eight of my carriages*.) Later improved controllers rendered the fitting unnecessary and IIRC the last production didn't have it though the mounting and hole in the bunker remained.

Painting the Wrenn tyre black makes the wheel look bigger. I've never had Dublo wheels split, though it has happened with inferior makes.

 

* I suspect nobody is interested, but 2 LNER, 1 LMS, 2 BR(M) and 3 D13 suburbans. The shorter vehicles run more freely than the others. This is probably due to the weight of the vehicle, as the high friction 'bearings' are the same.

Edited by Il Grifone
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Hi all,

Ok I have found out the wheels that work for this engine and my H/D castle. They are the bogie wheels off the Triang /Hornby Britannia. A set just arrived from Peters Spares today and they fit perfectly. As for the couplings I stand by my method for the H/D bogies. It has worked every time with no failures. Plus it is so simple to do. Also checking Ebay it will cost over £40.00 to get both front and rear bogies. I have checked the wheels  with my vernier gauge and their size is 10.47mm for the wheel and 12mm for the edge to edge of the rim.

You could also go wild and turn it in to something else. I turned my spare 2-6-4 body into a 2-10-0 tank for fun. It still needs a little tweaking with the body height(Needs to drop a by about 2ml) and a coupling putting on the rear. Will eventually get round to it.

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Edited by cypherman
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5 hours ago, Il Grifone said:

Later improved controllers rendered the fitting unnecessary and IIRC the last production didn't have it though the mounting and hole in the bunker remained.

I don't think it was ever fitted on the 2-rail versions so the 3-rail ones would have stopped having the shunt about the same time. 

 

Garry 

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2 hours ago, Silverfox17 said:

I don't think it was ever fitted on the 2-rail versions so the 3-rail ones would have stopped having the shunt about the same time. 

 

Garry 

 

That's probably the case. They'd moved on to better controllers* by then and I'd started to backtrack to GWR 2 rail, so I've no personal experience of the later production. The last HD locomotive I bought new was a heavily discounted 48158 8F  in the early sixties. I don't recall if my 80033 bought S/H many years later (early 21st century) had it or not (not that would prove anything as it comes off with almost zero effort and you get a free 6 BA screw into the bargain!)

 

* A Marshal III will make almost anything run slowly!

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Took the bogie and pony truck wheels off, splined axle ends, they came off ok.  Put the mutimeter on the wheels and one set (the one with both wheels on the axle) has one wheel insulated ok, with the other 2  the insulation has broken down. 

Found the box of old wheels, few possibilities as most too big but found this bogie, top of picture, which has plated wheels the same size as the loco ones, 10.3mm so under scale size. However, worth a go at fitting, see what it looks like.  Got given the box ages ago so I've no idea what loco that's off, Hornby britannia ? Have got some wagon wheels off a Wrenn van that I rewheeled somewhere, so that's a possibility on a non-pinpoint axle. 

Also I found some couplings in the box the body came it, genuine wrenn ones but the peco type.  That's just above the pony truck. Tension lock like the one   above the bogie would fit if riveted one removed.

I've no idea what the bushed coupling is in left hand corner, just found it.

 

Re Il Grifone's  8F, I also bought a 48158 8F along with a Bristol Castle in what must have been the early sixties, they were being sold off by a local toy shop. I also bought some coaches, a D11 coach and several maroon suburban ones, with the printed windows.  I think they were very cheap and they threw in a TPO as well! I already had the TPO set.  I still have these... however 3 rail was coming to an end together with steam and many railway routes so that was the end of it for me for many years. Then it was 2 rail and coaches with windows you could see through but that's another story.

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That tension lock coupling is the type developed by Mainline to fit the Airfix RTR coupling mounting on the stock they inherited from Airfix GMR, to match up with the existing Mainline pattern couplings.

 

Dapol also use these couplings, they added the fixing hole to allow screw fixing to chassis not fitted with the Airfix type mounting.

 

Now both Hornby and Dapol have this coupling, as Hornby now has some ex Dapol tooling...

 

 

The Wrenn PECO type coupling has the centering peg cut off, leaving a gap. This allowed the coupling to clip onto the pre fitted brass rivet, once the fitted tension lock coupling was removed.

 

The bushed PECO type coupling looks like it has been similarly modified.
 

From a diesel loco?

 

 

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Well got the wheels on, chassis ran ok,  fitted the spare Wrenn body.  As it still has the Peco type couplings I dug out  2  D12 H-D coaches, the only 3 rail era ones I have that have insulated (nylon) wheels.  They came with the Flying Scotsman set that started it all off for me. They've been in a box for many years unused  so it was a nostalgic operation to have them hauled round the current layout.

The tank looks ok bopping round the layout, the flangeless centre drivers etc. don't really notice.

 

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I put the H-D style wheels back on the pony truck, since the insulated wheel was still ok. It also gave the loco more of a vintage H-D look.  However, the Wrenn insulating bushes I had wouldn't fit the the rear bogie wheels, where the insulation had failed, so I fitted same sized plated rim wheels from a Hornby bogie.  It kind of looks Hornby Dublo at the front and Wrenn at the back, can't yet decide which to go for.  But this has got the loco running, a giant step forwards, so another lock down project moves on...

 

The other body is a GBL one, which is of course basically Bachmann,  so I think the Hornby Dublo body looks ok considering how long ago it was designed, compared with the much later one.

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3 hours ago, railroadbill said:

Those are nice Meteor models (plus Hunter and vampire),  right era for the loco! 

Hi ,

You missed out the EE Lightning. It was so sad that it was not noticed it dropped it's missiles. As for that French Dassault Mirage interloper, Well we just ignore him.......lol.

Yes you must have guessed it my other passion is collecting diecast aircraft. I have about 300 of them. usually about 50% on display at any one time. I collect mainly 1/72 scale. But do have a number of 1/100 scale modern jets. The rest are boxed in the loft and rotated out at regular intervals.

I must admit I do like the way the GBL engine has been so finely lined. Must check mine as that is boxed away with the rest of the collection in the loft. No where to put them Along with My Star Wars ship collection, Thunderbirds collection and 200+ 1/72 scale tanks. Not counting all the boxes with model buildings in for my model railway.

Really do need a bigger house. I did suggest to SWMBO that she puts her teddy bear collection away with her dolls and I could use the space that they are taking up. As you can guess that was definite none starter...... :(

Edited by cypherman
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