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Italian (FS) box wagons in Herefordshire conundrum.


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Does anybody have any idea just why two FS box wagons should be in Herefordshire?  The caption is incorrect as the two wagons are Italain Ghkks of probably war time vintage and not French. 

 

The location is thought not to be Kington but Pembridge on the Leominster to Titley line.

 

What on earth were they doing being shunted around in 1964? It could be assumed that this sort of wagon would have come via rail ferry from the Continent with fruit or flowers for the London markets but the middle of nowhere in Herefordshire!

 

Puzzling!

Image found on Google

1385928642_1458atKingtonwithtwoItalianvans..jpg.074337e3d3f89334578091bde2b25879.jpg

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

It is a bit of a mystery, isn't it? Could they be taking Herefordshire hops to Italy, perhaps? There's not a lot else around there, is there? A few years later, and it might have been taking some of Dunkerton's cider and perry southwards....

 

That's an idea. It would presumably be a return traffic with the wagons having come from Italy with fruit or similar.

 

I don't think that there are many hop fields now in that part of the county but back then it might be another matter.

 

The other big crop here in Herefordshire is potatoes. Do they grow them in Italy?

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I think its much more likely that they have delivered Italian goods, although when this subject was discussed before (It might have been elsewhere, I can't find my contribution in RMweb) I observed it was guesswork... a delivery of farm or dairy machinery (someone's new Lamborghini tractor perhaps), or a consignment of Vespa motor scooters or bicycles (two vans full of them seems a little unlikely for somewhere quite so rural). An alternative might be the Italian Army on Nato manoeuvres, but that's perhaps less likely.,

 

Jon

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The caption on the photo says September, that’s not right either. Look at the trees. The photo looks to be taken some point between December and April which ties in with when 1458 was at Hereford. 
 

Given the time of year the photo was actually taken I’d suggest inwards goods rather than local produce unless it was stored cider apples. Was there that much in the way of hops grown in that part of Herefordshire, feels a bit too far west? I don’t recall seeing any hop fields when I lived in the area, though that was well after the sixties. Further east definitely but none west of Leominster. 
 

Justin 

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This picture is on the archive images website. They suggest 25th April 1964 which sounds a bit better. Maybe a little late going by the trees but it looks like the hedges might be coming back to life so maybe not far out. 
 

There are also a couple of other images on the site of this train. Same picture as above just from a different angle. This one suggests that there may have been 4 of the wagons. Quite a consignment. 
 

The wagons are interesting. Could they be horse boxes or cattle wagons? They seem to have doors at towards each end with drop down flaps reminiscent of our horse boxes. Could the consignment be livestock of some sort? 
 

Specialist agricultural equipment could be a possibility. Another thought I had was that these vans may have been unloaded somewhere else on the line. There was major gas pipeline work that used Presteign as a railhead in 1964. It could possibly be equipment connected with that?
 

I don’t know anything about how international wagons worked. We’re they returned home ASAP or could they be used for traffic by a different country, i.e the goods came from somewhere other than Italy? 
 

Justin

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1 hour ago, jjnewitt said:

 

There are also a couple of other images on the site of this train. Same picture as above just from a different angle. This one suggests that there may have been 4 of the wagons. Quite a consignment. 
 

The wagons are interesting. Could they be horse boxes or cattle wagons? They seem to have doors at towards each end with drop down flaps reminiscent of our horse boxes. Could the consignment be livestock of some sort? 
 

Specialist agricultural equipment could be a possibility. Another thought I had was that these vans may have been unloaded somewhere else on the line. There was major gas pipeline work that used Presteign as a railhead in 1964. It could possibly be equipment connected with that?
 

I don’t know anything about how international wagons worked. We’re they returned home ASAP or could they be used for traffic by a different country, i.e the goods came from somewhere other than Italy? 
 

Justin

 

I don't think I see four ferry vans there.

 

They would not have been used for livestock. there is one central sliding door, what you are seeing is ventilators and their covers,

This is a preserved example https://www.societavenetaferrovie.it/carro-21-83-21-48-963-3-fb-1931-sagoma-inglese/

 

I think its reasonable to suggest it could be anywhere on that 'pick up goods' route, so may not have been Kington.

 

Ferry vans once in the UK were very tightly controlled. BR in effect paid demurrage on them from the moment they arrived in the UK until they left again, presumably to encourage their return working. Whilst its slightly possible that some other administration has hired these vans to make a journey from somewhere other than Italy, I'd say it was unlikely. There were also very strict rules on where ferry wagons could go back to - an Italian van could probably be back loaded via dover to France (which is 'on the way home', but would not have been allowed to go via Harwich, or to Holland, neither of wich would be considered 'on the way'.

 

Jon

Edited by jonhall
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Ahh, yes it is 2. My eyes playing tricks on me. Found the vans in Larkin's Non-Pool Freight stock Volume 2. They're quite fun.

 

The loaction in the first post on this thread is definately Pembridge not Kington. The captions on Archive Images are also incorrect. 

 

Thanks for the info on Ferry wagons. I thought there might be arrangements in place to prevent them being 'borrowed' but it's nice to get a sense of how they oporated. 

 

Justin 

 

 

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15 hours ago, jjnewitt said:

We’re they returned home ASAP or could they be used for traffic by a different country, i.e the goods came from somewhere other than Italy? 

 

As Jon has stated, BR was liable for demurrage on overseas wagons if they were not returned immediately.  Nonetheless a small pool was maintained (I think in Manchester, but that may be faulty memory) for any urgent traffic.

 

Was there any manufacture locally which might have gone to export?  I'm thinking of the blue Transfesa vans, known for bringing oranges and onions into the country, being loaded with washing machines for Spain.   That may even be in a video somewhere.

 

I have a few of the ROCO vans awaiting my attention.  Because they used a bizarre scale (something like 1:80), for 4mm purposes they're correct width wise and 2mm short - well within my degree of tolerance.

 

 

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My question is 'why not?".. I have a photo somewhere of our local branch terminus with the full loads road in the goods yard playing host to 4 or 5 ferry wagons which, from memory without digging out the photo, were also probably Italian.  In the local case they had arrived - as they regularly did at one time - carrying wooden toys manufactured in, i think, Yugoslavia or somewhere in that area.  In realiity you could find ferry wagons turning up in all sorts of unexpected places as a result of some traffic flow or individual job you wouldn't normally expect.

 

In the case of the photo we don't know if they'd arrived loaded or empty or what they were carrying or what they were there to be loaded with.  But of itself in the early 1960s I wouldn't consider their presence to be particularly out of the ordinary although it might well have been at that particular location, however they would definitely have been there for a good reason.  Maybe I was just too used to seeing them on our local branch freight trip?

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17 hours ago, jjnewitt said:

This picture is on the archive images website. They suggest 25th April 1964 which sounds a bit better. Maybe a little late going by the trees but it looks like the hedges might be coming back to life so maybe not far out. 

I quite agree re the date.

 

John and I have to thank Neil Rushby for originally drawing our attention to this photo. I never thought it was Kington either and judging from footage taken by Jim Clemens in 1964 (excellent, by the way), I also felt that it could only be at Pembridge.

 

Given that Bethesda Sidings is located on the extension of the New Radnor line to Rhayader, John is most keen that I acquire one or two examples. The local pick-up goods you see here would inevitably have run from Leominster to Bethesda yard, rather than Kington, in my universe.

 

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3 hours ago, Re6/6 said:

Thanks everybody for all the info about this puzzle.

 

These used to be available from A.C.M.E. and Roco.

1346298535_FSwagons.jpg.80088bd9478bdf8d607eb78931f4f19c.jpg

 

So far as I can make out, the ones in the pic have steel panels rather than vertical planking.

 

I feel it is likely that HO models will have been produced.

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They aren't, Brian - I think they must be the ACME ones someone referred to.   What I had in mind is actually from Rivarossi, not ROCO, but it's the same prototype.   You'd need to add the extra ferry details and markings, which is where I stalled - preparing the decals - but the basic wagon is near enough in 4mm.

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One further point on doing a bit of selective enlargement of the original photo is that the wagon nearest the engine carries a painted indication that it is for agricultural produce and it appears the other one is similarly branded.  whether of course it was actually conveying or to be loaded with agricu;tural produce is another issue entirely.

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54 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

Those wagons in the model photos are very nice; are they actually ferry vans though? They don't have the 'anchor' symbol, nor the lower-case 'f' as the second character in the wagon code. Neither do they have the various 'ram's horns' and other securing mechanisms.

 

There are similar liveried vehicles in Dave Larkin's "Non-Pool Freight Stock 1948 - 1968 Volume 2" book which carry "Prodotti Agricoli / Agricultural Produce" lettering with the anchor symbol appearing just below the left hand ventilation opening which you can just about make out on the first vehicle.

 

One thing that came to mind as a possible traffic was leather hides for tanning? This required a plentiful supply of water and treatment plants were sited away from built up areas so may be a contender.

 

Another possibility is the fact that there was a large fair held in May (the Cowslip Fair) which was an important event for the areas agricultural industry. Could be the two wagons had brought in produce in connection with it.

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47 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

One further point on doing a bit of selective enlargement of the original photo is that the wagon nearest the engine carries a painted indication that it is for agricultural produce and it appears the other one is similarly branded.  whether of course it was actually conveying or to be loaded with agricu;tural produce is another issue entirely.

The white stripe was another indication that these vehicles carried agricultural produce, though it didn't mean they couldn't be used for other traffic. The white stripes could still be seen (albeit rather half-heartedly painted over) on the mid-1960s style wagons into the mid-1990s.

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I think in the case of ferry wagons they were pretty  'flexible' use - i.e. any traffic that fitted - not so much for these little Italian vans, but you did see an number of German types with end doors or sliding roof to give as many loading options as possible.

 

I suspect the main traffic from Italy would have been fruit and veg, as their growing season would have been earlier/longer, but Italy was rapidly industrialising at this time, so agricultural equipment, bicycles, scooters, and cars (or more likely parts in a van that size) are all perfectly possible, that it required two vans and its a rather rural location makes me favour a delivery of agricultural equipment, rather than lemons or Oliveti typewriters.

 

Jon

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What search term are you using to find the Roco models please? 

If I search for "Ghkks" I get a long wheelbase van with flat sides (as in https://www.hattons.co.uk/326315/roco_4300s_covered_goods_wagon_of_the_fs/stockdetail.aspx)

and if I search for "fb" I get a similar grey van that the Roco website describes as "short wheelbase" and 133mm long, but the picture is of a long wheelbase van? ( https://www.roco.cc/en/product/243430-76600-0-0-0-0-0-003-1/products.html

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Actually, perhaps the two models I found are closer to the pair in the photo than the Roco models posted by Re6/6  although the sides and ends are not planked. I wonder what 'scale' Roco used for these? 

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14 minutes ago, flockandroll said:

Actually, perhaps the two models I found are closer to the pair in the photo than the Roco models posted by Joseph Pestell, although the sides and ends are not planked. I wonder what 'scale' Roco used for these? 

Not me, Guv.

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Pembridge isn't  a million miles away from our house and aside from the agricultural produce mentioned, there isn't any other obvious industry in Pembridge, either now or in the 1960s. I've had a look in 'The Facility of Locomotion:The Kington Railways' , which covers the lines to New Radnor, Kington, Presteign, etc and there is no reference to any regular or one-off traffic relating to Italy or anywhere else on the continent. 

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