Multiple Unit Working between different Classes e.g. Class 40 + Class 25

[dan_the_v8man]

Does any one know of any other classes working together in multiple like the blue star equipped Class 40 and Class 25 shown below?

 

Also any idea why it was done? A pair of 37s would have had similar power output and tractive effort

[TheSignalEngineer]

21 minutes ago, dan_the_v8man said:

Also any idea why it was done? A pair of 37s would have had similar power output and tractive effort

Locos for that working were provided by the LMR. They didn't have any 37s.

[dan_the_v8man]

1 minute ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Locos for that working were provided by the LMR. They didn't have any 37s.

 

37s were just the first loco I thought of, 40 + 25 seems like an odd combination 

[TravisM]

Blue star was the “standard” MU fitting for Class’s 15’ 20, 24, 25, 26, 27, 31/1’s and later 31/4 ETH conversions, 33, 37, 40, 44 through 46 (I believe it was wired up but the MU gear was never fitted).

 

I believe you could MU any of the above loco’s together and they would “talk” to each other.  Fine in principle but as a driver who coupled two Class 40’s together, found when he opened the power, they tried going in different directions.

Edited November 27, 2020 by jools1959
Typo

[25901]

50 minutes ago, jools1959 said:

I believe you could MU any of the above loco’s together and they would “talk” to each other.  Fine in principle but as a driver who coupled two Class 40’s together, found when he opened the power, they tried going in different directions.

Yep, had a good laugh watching a pair of 40s doing that lol

[griffgriff]

10 hours ago, dan_the_v8man said:

 

37s were just the first loco I thought of, 40 + 25 seems like an odd combination 

Possibly diagramed for something different but availability dictated what was used. However, 40s and 25s in combination were certainly not unknown. 20s, perhaps for obvious reasons, often worked with other classes.

 

Griff

[Pete the Elaner]

Double heading has been used as a way to move locos without needing a path for a light engine movement, so maybe both locos were required for separate duties closer to the destination?

This was the reason 45637 Windward Islands was involved in the Harrow & Wealdstone collision. It certainly wasn't needed for power; 46202 Princess Anne was the train loco & was more than powerful enough on its own.

 

[keefer]

I'm sure the 40+25 train  was a regular working, I remember seeing it in a magazine at the time.

[keefer]

https://www.derbysulzers.com/25325.html

Scroll down to near the bottom of the page for a pic of 40150 & 25325 "near Chinley on June 5th 1984 with the returning BOC empties for Ditton."

EDIT: a couple of more pics at

https://www.derbysulzers.com/25229.html

 

Edited November 28, 2020 by keefer

[dan_the_v8man]

3 hours ago, keefer said:

I'm sure the 40+25 train  was a regular working, I remember seeing it in a magazine at the time.

Yes they were regularly diagramed to BOC workings 

[dan_the_v8man]

4 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

Double heading has been used as a way to move locos without needing a path for a light engine movement, so maybe both locos were required for separate duties closer to the destination?

This was the reason 45637 Windward Islands was involved in the Harrow & Wealdstone collision. It certainly wasn't needed for power; 46202 Princess Anne was the train loco & was more than powerful enough on its own.

 

Don't think it was for that reason as the pair worked a return working! 

 

But yes it's often the reason you see double headed working these days just to move the locos about as you say 

[Rivercider]

I seem to remember in a discussion somewhere about the very rare appearances of class 40s at Exeter that for a time the booked diagram for an Ellesmere Port to Exeter bitumen service was for a 25+40 combination, but that in practice it never ran as such.

In East Anglia I believe a class 31+37 combination was sometimes seen on sand traffic, including from Fen Drayton to Kings Cross Goods, I saw  one train in 1985.

31319 and 37125 depart from Cambridge with a Fen Drayton to Kings Cross Goods sand train loaded in HTVs. 11/7/85.

 

cheers

[Rivercider]

I can't answer the original question as to why 25+40 was used, it does seem a little odd.

I would have thought a straightforward 25+25 pairing made more sense, unless the contract load for the service was more than they could lift?

 

Edit  - comments on Flickr for a photo of 25249 and 40082 at Bamford on that working do mention that 2 x 25 were not powerful enough for the working from Ditton. 

 

cheers  

Edited November 28, 2020 by Rivercider

[russ p]

When DRS fitted multi gear to the 47s they could and did work with 20s and 37s .

It wasn't entirely successful and was replaced fairly quickly with the BR RFd green spot system 

This still can however work with blue star using an adapter jumper cable.  47s did occasionally work with the saloon , caroline 

[The Stationmaster]

16 hours ago, jools1959 said:

Blue star was the “standard” MU fitting for Class’s 15’ 20, 24, 25, 26, 27, 31/1’s and later 31/4 ETH conversions, 33, 37, 40, 44 through 46 (I believe it was wired up but the MU gear was never fitted).

 

I believe you could MU any of the above loco’s together and they would “talk” to each other.  Fine in principle but as a driver who coupled two Class 40’s together, found when he opened the power, they tried going in different directions.

Coupling locos in multiple tht hadn't been so coupled since they'd left the factory (if then) was always good for that sort of entertainment.  When we started multi'ing EE Type 3s for light loc moves in South Wales in 1973 we had exactly the same problem - sometimes ok, sometimes they would go in opposite directions away from each other and occasionally they would go in opposite directions towards each other.  We also found that at times if we coupled them in a different order everything worked properly so we eventually had a list of which ones could be coupled which way round in order to for things to work properly.

 

Apparently a lot of it was down to getting the cables squeezed and damaged at various times (well that was the story the M&EE people told us).  Oddly a few years later we encountered the problem at Westbury when we got paired Class 37s (as they had become) for stone train working.

[25901]

Be interesting to know the max number of locos that can be wired together. I know the book says three but I remember a long time ago at York being taken aback by the sound of five 37/5 freshly painted in gray all taking power through the station

[Jeremy Cumberland]

39 minutes ago, 25901 said:

Be interesting to know the max number of locos that can be wired together. I know the book says three but I remember a long time ago at York being taken aback by the sound of five 37/5 freshly painted in gray all taking power through the station

I recall that in the 1970s, the railway press reporting unusual moves would sometimes make it clear that the locomotives coupled together were in tandem (ie not in multiple; each loco had its own driver). My memory isn't so good as to remember whether these were always in tandem due to incompatable coupling codes.

 

Incidentally Hattons have a formation guide for BOC tanker trains: https://www.hattons.co.uk/newsdetail.aspx?id=501

You will see that there are a couple of unusual locomotive combinations on the Ditton - Broughton Lane run. A different 25 + 40 pairing from the OP's, and this wonderful combination:

[Photo: Barnsleyrailboy]

 

If this is an LMR diagram, I wonder where they got the 31 from.

 

I seem to recall seeing 25s with other classes, but it's a long time ago and I cannot remember details. I've certainly seen a picture fairly recently of a 25+Peak.

Edited November 28, 2020 by Jeremy C

[russ p]

34 minutes ago, 25901 said:

Be interesting to know the max number of locos that can be wired together. I know the book says three but I remember a long time ago at York being taken aback by the sound of five 37/5 freshly painted in gray all taking power through the station

 

I remember doing that on a few occasions bringing locos back from tinsley to thornaby often on a Sunday evening. 

Throttle response wasn't too good but five erupting 37s under the roof at York sounded fantastic. 

I wonder if the red circle locos would be better as there is no regulating air pipe.

I've heard in the past that the reason for a maximum of three locos in multi was to do with moving rails under the locos 

BR did later authorise 4 x class 20s in multi

[dan_the_v8man]

3 minutes ago, russ p said:

 

I remember doing that on a few occasions bringing locos back from tinsley to thornaby often on a Sunday evening. 

Throttle response wasn't too good but five erupting 37s under the roof at York sounded fantastic. 

I wonder if the red circle locos would be better as there is no regulating air pipe.

I've heard in the past that the reason for a maximum of three locos in multi was to do with moving rails under the locos 

BR did later authorise 4 x class 20s in multi

 

That's ones of the things I wondered about with different classes, they behave, perform and drive completely differently, driving them in MU must be interesting and easy to overload one of the locos 

Edited November 28, 2020 by dan_the_v8man

[dan_the_v8man]

9 minutes ago, Jeremy C said:

I recall that in the 1970s, the railway press reporting unusual moves would sometimes make it clear that the locomotives coupled together were in tandem (ie not in multiple; each loco had its own driver). My memory isn't so good as to remember whether these were always in tandem due to incompatable coupling codes.

 

Incidentally Hattons have a formation guide for BOC tanker trains: https://www.hattons.co.uk/newsdetail.aspx?id=501

You will see that there are a couple of unusual locomotive combinations on the Ditton - Broughton Lane run. A different 25 + 40 pairing from the OP's, and this wonderful combination:

[Photo: Barnsleyrailboy]

 

If this is an LMR diagram, I wonder where they got the 31 from.

 

I seem to recall seeing 25s with other classes, but it's a long time ago and I cannot remember details. I've certainly seen a picture fairly recently of a 25+Peak.

 

I remember seeing a photo of a 31 + a pair of 37s all in different liveries in Rail magazine, must have been mid 90s 

[Edwin_m]

12 minutes ago, Jeremy C said:

I recall that in the 1970s, the railway press reporting unusual moves would sometimes make it clear that the locomotives coupled together were in tandem (ie not in multiple; each loco had its own driver). My memory isn't so good as to remember whether these were always in tandem due to incompatable coupling codes.

 

Incidentally Hattons have a formation guide for BOC tanker trains: https://www.hattons.co.uk/newsdetail.aspx?id=501

You will see that there are a couple of unusual locomotive combinations on the Ditton - Broughton Lane run. A different 25 + 40 pairing from the OP's, and this wonderful combination:

[Photo: Barnsleyrailboy]

 

If this is an LMR diagram, I wonder where they got the 31 from.

 

I seem to recall seeing 25s with other classes, but it's a long time ago and I cannot remember details. I've certainly seen a picture fairly recently of a 25+Peak.

I guess the 31 was summoned to assist when one of the locos had failed.  Probably the 25, as it's already been said this train was too heavy for two 25s and I guess a 25+31 wouldn't have been much better.  

[45125]

4 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Coupling locos in multiple tht hadn't been so coupled since they'd left the factory (if then) was always good for that sort of entertainment.  When we started multi'ing EE Type 3s for light loc moves in South Wales in 1973 we had exactly the same problem - sometimes ok, sometimes they would go in opposite directions away from each other and occasionally they would go in opposite directions towards each other.  We also found that at times if we coupled them in a different order everything worked properly so we eventually had a list of which ones could be coupled which way round in order to for things to work properly.

 

Apparently a lot of it was down to getting the cables squeezed and damaged at various times (well that was the story the M&EE people told us).  Oddly a few years later we encountered the problem at Westbury when we got paired Class 37s (as they had become) for stone train working.

The usual reason for locos going the wrong way when in multi was due to train wires 7 and 8 not beeb correctly crossed over in the relevant jumper. Remember a 31 that would not go either way, some one had put the jumper cable in to the socket rather than putting into the dummy which is tucked up behind the buffer beam.

 

[TravisM]

4 hours ago, 25901 said:

Be interesting to know the max number of locos that can be wired together. I know the book says three but I remember a long time ago at York being taken aback by the sound of five 37/5 freshly painted in gray all taking power through the station

I thought the book said two as the three Class 20’s that went to Brighton had to be checked over to make sure nothing would “blow” enroute.  I also though the triple 37’s on the Port Talbot - Llanwern iron ore trains were from the last built and rigorously checked before going out as the train was so heavy.  It was thought that there was nothing could move it if it died, especially on a bank.

[black and decker boy]

There were a lot of workings in Scotland in the 1989s & early 90s where any blue star combination could be seen

 

20 / 26 / 37 in mixed pairs. Plenty of photos & videos exist.

[keefer]

I'm sure the general instruction in the GA/SA was a maximum of 3, i.e. in theory but as mentioned above, the real world could be a bit different for various reasons.

The Ravenscraig ore trains were usually 3 x 37, but the third loco was sometimes a 26, being added for the climb to Holytown.