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Reverse loop flashing on iTrain track plan when a loco runs on another section of track?


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For some time now I have been tracking and tracing every wire looking for an error, banging my head against a wall, believing I must surely have missed one that is causing an issue, three times I have checked every wire end to end, checked they were Bus wired, feedback wires, reverse loop wires etc.  

 

I am using the following:

Digikeijs Controller DR5000 - x1

Digikeijs feed back modules DR4088LN - several

Digikeijs DR5088RC - x1

Digikeijs DR5013 Reverse Loop modules - currently x2

iTrain V5 software.

 

The issue:

Flashing of a reverse loop when a loco runs on another section of track, whilst building and testing the track I used just one loco, one that gave the fault, so I naturally thought it had to be a wiring issue. 

 

I have taken a break from the issue mentioned and decided to Speed and Stop test every loco, I am glad I did as it sheds a different light on the issue. 

 

The first thing I noticed was it doesn't happen with every loco, had it been a wiring issue I would have expected this for all locos.

 

Looking deeper during the speed tests I found the following.

 

Class 101 - Bachmann - Railcom - with Loksound v4 - issue NO

Class 121 - Bachmann - Railcom - with Loksound v4 - issue NO

Class 142 - Hornby - No Railcom - No sound - issue NO

Class 150 - Bachmann - No Railcom - No sound - issue NO

Class 08 - Hornby - No Railcom - No sound - issue NO

Class 66 (40) - Bachmann - Railcom - with Loksound v4 - issue YES

Class 66 (111) - Bachmann - Railcom - with Loksound v4 - issue YES

Class 37 - Bachmann - Railcom - with Loksound v4 - issue YES

Class 43 - Hornby - Virgin HST - No Railcom - TTS Sound  - issue NO

Class J36 - Hornby - No Railcom - TTS Sound - Issue NO

Class F9 - Hornby - Evening Star - No Railcom - No sound - issue NO

Class 8 - Hornby - DOG - No Railcom - TTS Sound - issue YES

Class P6 - Bachmann - Royal Signals - Railcom - with Loksound v4 - issue NO

 

Only 4 locos give the issue of a reverse loop flashing when a loco runs on another part of the track???

 

I am totally baffled, but after so many checks to the wiring and the speed tests in iTrain, I am now convinced it has to be something else, but what that something else is I remain 'baffled'. As you can see above, I have locos with Railcom and Loksound, some run and I don't get the error, some run I I get the error?

 

The Digikeijs DR5088RC - x1 was added recently, the issue occurred before this was added.

 

Help guys, has anyone experienced similar? Has anyone any suggestions?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Paul

 

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The Reverse Loop Block

 

IRJ______________[Feedback to Rev Loop DR5013]___________IRJ

 

The feedback in he reverse loop block goes on and off, intermittently, when a loco on another part of the track is moving. The reverse loop block is unoccupied.

 

The Block lights us as if occupied, but there is nothing in that block, with some locos that cause the issue it may be like a flash, on and off, then a wait before doing again. It stops when the loco stops.

 

Another loco may cause the reaction to be a little longer in the on position but then it goes off waits and comes back on again.  

 

But it only happens with 4 of my 13 locos?

 

Thanks for your question, I do hope this describe the issue better.

 

When a loco runs through the reverse loop block, it lights up the block correctly showing the block to be occupied.

 

I made the error whilst building the first two boards of using just one loco, the Royal Signals P6, because this loco shows the issue I thought it had to be a wiring issue, now it seems not, but I am baffled.

 

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You haven't got the wiring for other sections running close to the block wiring for the reverse loop have you?

I had an issue when I first wired up my reverse loops (LDT reverse loop modules and TrainController)

I found crosstalk between the two sets of wiring, meaning false occupancy.

 

Solution: re-route the wiring for the revese loop.

No problems since then.

Edited by melmerby
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3 hours ago, model-trains said:

The Reverse Loop Block

 

IRJ______________[Feedback to Rev Loop DR5013]___________IRJ

 

The feedback in he reverse loop block goes on and off, intermittently, when a loco on another part of the track is moving. The reverse loop block is unoccupied.

 

The Block lights us as if occupied, but there is nothing in that block, with some locos that cause the issue it may be like a flash, on and off, then a wait before doing again. It stops when the loco stops.

 

Another loco may cause the reaction to be a little longer in the on position but then it goes off waits and comes back on again.  

 

But it only happens with 4 of my 13 locos?

 

Thanks for your question, I do hope this describe the issue better.

 

When a loco runs through the reverse loop block, it lights up the block correctly showing the block to be occupied.

 

I made the error whilst building the first two boards of using just one loco, the Royal Signals P6, because this loco shows the issue I thought it had to be a wiring issue, now it seems not, but I am baffled.

 


 

has this issue persisted from when you first started up the layout, although not the same manufacturer I had a very similar thing happening, I use digitrax. Are the wires from the detectors to the track twisted, this I found was the cause of my false occupancy 

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1 minute ago, Andymsa said:


 

has this issue persisted from when you first started up the layout, although not the same manufacturer I had a very similar thing happening, I use digitrax. Are the wires from the detectors to the track twisted, this I found was the cause of my false occupancy 

Quite the reverse with mine

My wires weren't twisted to start with, they are all now twisted and now no false occupancy (RS-8s)

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1 hour ago, melmerby said:

Quite the reverse with mine

My wires weren't twisted to start with, they are all now twisted and now no false occupancy (RS-8s)


I think that some manufacturers detectors are less prone to false detection than others regarding the twisting or not of wires.

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Can you set the required "on time" in iTrain so that it doesn't blink?  This is most likely a case of cross talk between sections- and if you can increase the detection time to say, 2 seconds in block, that may solve it?  Mine are set via flag in RR&Co to remain flagged on for 10 seconds due to dropouts on trains.  It all depends on the fault you are getting.

 

James

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The probability is that it is false signals caused by the sensitivity of the DR4088xx especially as it is happening with just a few detectors.

 

The solution to place a shunt resistor of around 470 ohms at the DR4088xx between the C terminal and the feedback that is flashing. The  alternative is to put a 47uF capacitor across the C terminal and the over sensitive feedback.

 

The DR4088xx will 'fire' with a current draw of 1 mA and cross talk induction can be sufficient to create this draw

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22 hours ago, melmerby said:

You haven't got the wiring for other sections running close to the block wiring for the reverse loop have you?

I had an issue when I first wired up my reverse loops (LDT reverse loop modules and TrainController)

I found crosstalk between the two sets of wiring, meaning false occupancy.

 

Solution: re-route the wiring for the revese loop.

No problems since then.

 

Interesting reply @melmerby.

 

I will look into this tomorrow.

 

1232633716_201129_Layoutboard-1.jpg.aaacf0c4c4e8930b8e8f9a3c995f3f57.jpg

 

The control board for boards 1 & 2 in in the position shown above and includes 2x DR4088LN (Feedbacks) and 2x DR5013 (Reverse Loop Modules)

 

The wires to feedbacks and Reverse loops to run close to each other, they all run from their positions on the layout to a hole between the 1200mm square board and the smaller section attached to it. Also the wires the other side of the DR5013 run together with those of the DR4088LN's to all the feedbacks on board 2. All neatly taped together! This could be the cause then.

 

Many thanks

 

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19 hours ago, Andymsa said:

I had a very similar thing happening, I use digitrax. Are the wires from the detectors to the track twisted, this I found was the cause of my false occupancy 

 

Hi @Andymsa

 

Many thanks for your response, yes the problem has persisted from the start, no none of the wires are not twisted, but they are grouped, feedbacks and reverse loop wires all insulation taped. See my reply to another member above.

 

Thanks again

 

Paul

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19 hours ago, melmerby said:

Quite the reverse with mine

My wires weren't twisted to start with, they are all now twisted and now no false occupancy (RS-8s)

 

 

Interesting reply @melmerby, thank you.

 

I think my best option is disconnect the reverse loop wires and redirect separately to the feedback wires.

 

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22 hours ago, KingEdwardII said:

The Digikeijs DR5013 is a very complex piece of kit. Can you say more about how you have it connected to your layout and how you have it configured?

 

Yours,  Mike.

 

 

Thanks for your response Mike

 

I will check that in detail and reply, but first I think maybe separate the reverse loop wires from running in parallel to the other group of feedback wires. I will reply to confirm the outcome of this first.

 

Thanks again.

 

Paul 

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1 minute ago, model-trains said:

 

 

Interesting reply @melmerby, thank you.

 

I think my best option is disconnect the reverse loop wires and redirect separately to the feedback wires.

 

It's a good idea to keep any block detection wires separate from each other and the DCC bus.

You don't need much space but bunching wires together is asking for trouble

As Ian said, block detectors will show occupancy with less than 1mA and the induced current from an adjacent current carry wire can be sufficient to get false readings.

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17 hours ago, peach james said:

Can you set the required "on time" in iTrain so that it doesn't blink?  This is most likely a case of cross talk between sections- and if you can increase the detection time to say, 2 seconds in block, that may solve it?  Mine are set via flag in RR&Co to remain flagged on for 10 seconds due to dropouts on trains.  It all depends on the fault you are getting.

 

James

 

 

Hi @peach james

 

That is not an area I have got to yet. I am hoping by the end of the year to have 2 boards of 4 connected so I can play a little and set up and learn more.

 

Where will I find the timing you mention?

 

Thanks for your response

 

Paul

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10 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

The probability is that it is false signals caused by the sensitivity of the DR4088xx especially as it is happening with just a few detectors.

 

The solution to place a shunt resistor of around 470 ohms at the DR4088xx between the C terminal and the feedback that is flashing. The  alternative is to put a 47uF capacitor across the C terminal and the over sensitive feedback.

 

The DR4088xx will 'fire' with a current draw of 1 mA and cross talk induction can be sufficient to create this draw

 

Hi Iain,

 

That went straight over my head, could you explain more please.

 

I understand feedbacks and flashing, and pleased to say the last sentence which is making sense. 

 

Tomorrow I will start by removing the reverse loop wires from the feedback ones and redirect them with each group of wires going a different direction. This will however still leave around 16 feedback wires going from the control board and one DR4088LN to the the main circles and sidings on board-1, and another 16 approximately going the other way from the second DR4088LN to feedbacks on board 2.  As the issue appears to be just the flashing of the reverse loop block, when a loco is on a track outside the reverse loop section, either on board-1, board-2 or the speed measuring length of track, hopefully that could solve the issue.

 

But could the issue happen with feedbacks where a group of feedback wires are taped together?

 

Paul

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18 minutes ago, melmerby said:

It's a good idea to keep any block detection wires separate from each other and the DCC bus.

You don't need much space but bunching wires together is asking for trouble

As Ian said, block detectors will show occupancy with less than 1mA and the induced current from an adjacent current carry wire can be sufficient to get false readings.

 

 

It seems clearer now that good housekeeping, tidy wiring, is not the best option, with electrics.

 

Better to find out now on board 1 & 2 than get all 4 boards done with two Reverse Loops at each end than have these issues.

 

Thanks again 

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On 29/11/2020 at 09:35, WIMorrison said:

The solution to place a shunt resistor of around 470 ohms at the DR4088xx between the C terminal and the feedback that is flashing.

 

 

I have separated all reverse loop wires that were taped together with feedback wires, then separated all reverse loop wires that were close to each other. The result being, The Royal Signals does not give an error, but the other 3 locos still do give the error, flashing interference. 

 

It seems after all the time spend looking for the issue, that adding the 470 ohm resister, you suggested, to the wire leading to the DR5013 is the easiest option. Note it is not the DR4088LN that is showing the interference flashing, but 1 of the 2 DR5013's on this end of the layout (there will be two at the other end when I get there).

 

If what you suggest is the same for the DR4088LN and the DR5013, then I feel it may be best to add a 470 ohm resister to the wire going to each device. Would you agree Iain?

 

Now the next bit, I have looked on ebay for a 470 ohm resisters, there are many with different wattages?  Which would you suggest best please?

 

Many thanks to you and all on here for your helps.

 

Paul

 

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The solution I mention is for the DR4088xx and not the DR5013 or DR5088RC as the Dr4xxx series and DR5xxxx series are fundamentally different and the solution will not work.

 

The current draw needed to make a DR50xx device show occupancy is much higher which means that there are significantly less sensitive and to date I haven’t heard of false signals on a DR5013 or DR5088RC.

 

unfortunately this means that I don’t have an answer to the problem with the DR5913 you describe. The only solution may be to change to sensor direction change rather than short circuit though this is a guess and not a definitive solution.

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I include here the wiring within the Reverse loop to the DCC Bus and to the DR5015 module.

 

I have 5 connections to the track within the Reverse Loop Block, the interference issue was the same when just one pair of wires were used. The lines are a little thick but I am sure you will follow, the 5   are connected to  cable connector then to the DR5013.

 

Please ignore the blue track in the lower block, I have modified the original from the manual for easiness.

 

201202_DR5013_wiring.jpg.bfc2bc1912456fe6905ad3f751fb50b0.jpg

 

I also add the details Exported from 1 DR5013, which was programmed prior to adding to the layout.

 

<?xml version="1.0"?>

-<DR5013 xmlns:xsd="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema" xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance">


-<LocoNet>

<Purge_Time>0</Purge_Time>

<FastClock_Rate>0</FastClock_Rate>

<FRED_Timing>false</FRED_Timing>

<Baudrate_Tuning>110</Baudrate_Tuning>

<Comparator_Tuning>1.8046875</Comparator_Tuning>

<LN_ReportAfterPowerOn>false</LN_ReportAfterPowerOn>

<SenseReport>0</SenseReport>

<RailComReport>2</RailComReport>

</LocoNet>


-<DCC>

<FirstTurnoutModule>1</FirstTurnoutModule>

</DCC>


-<RailCom>

<ModuleNumber>1</ModuleNumber>

<ReportDelay>1000</ReportDelay>

<ReportAfterPowerOn>true</ReportAfterPowerOn>

<Report7D>false</Report7D>

<ReportRX8>false</ReportRX8>

<ReportSpeed>false</ReportSpeed>

<SpeedDelta>3</SpeedDelta>

<ReportQoS>false</ReportQoS>

<QoSDelta>5</QoSDelta>

<QoSSuppress>10</QoSSuppress>

<ReportContainer>false</ReportContainer>

<LogDetection>false</LogDetection>

<UseChannel2>false</UseChannel2>

<DetectCount>15</DetectCount>

<PolarityCount>2</PolarityCount>

<PolarityDelay>250</PolarityDelay>

<MuxTime>33</MuxTime>


-<Global>

<FeedBackAddress>101</FeedBackAddress>

<FeedBackEnabled>true</FeedBackEnabled>

<FeedBackTimeout>500</FeedBackTimeout>

<BlockAddress>101</BlockAddress>

<BlockEnabled>true</BlockEnabled>

<DirectionInvert>false</DirectionInvert>

</Global>

</RailCom>


-<ReverseLoop>

<StartUpDelay>450</StartUpDelay>

<OffDelay>150</OffDelay>

<TurnoutMode>0</TurnoutMode>

<TurnoutState>1</TurnoutState>

<TurnoutAddress>0</TurnoutAddress>

<s0Address>0</s0Address>

<s1Address>0</s1Address>

<s2Address>0</s2Address>

<s3Address>0</s3Address>

<TrackAddress>101</TrackAddress>

<ShortDelay>75</ShortDelay>

<ShortReport>3</ShortReport>

<RetryDelay>1000</RetryDelay>

<AutoRetry>false</AutoRetry>

</ReverseLoop>

<Version>1.0.0</Version>

</DR5013>

 

Paul

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Paul,

 

Thanks for your last post - this was the kind of detail I was hoping to see relating to the DR5013.

 

So, to put it simply, you are using the DR5013 in the mode shown in 5.2 of the manual - i.e. "short circuit detection" + "LocoNet connection". Is that correct?

 

Mike

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