Hornby Elevated supports

[gnairn23]

Hello, sorry if this has been asked about before but I have a query about these

 

https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/elevated-track-support-set.html

 

Basically, is it possible to incline on a curve?

 

I have imaged elevating half way through the straight of an oval and then containing to incline round the curves until it reaches 80mm then I put this bridge

 

https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/brick-bridge.html at the short side, and then start to incline down the opposite way.

 

Sounds good?

 

 

[PMP]

The Hornby incline have been around for a long time, and are designed to be used for ‘train sets’, so you shouldn’t have any issues with them on a pure oval.

[gnairn23]

So you can incline on the corners? I just don't think I have enough space to incline and put a bridge on a straight.

Edited November 29, 2020 by gnairn23

[Kris]

4 minutes ago, gnairn23 said:

So you can incline on the corners? I just don't think I have enough space to incline and put a bridge on a straight.

 

Yes you can use them on corners. These do create a very steep gradient so train lengths will be reduced. 

[gnairn23]

yeah, apparently you put them at 24 sleeper intervals,  I think it would look cool with the wee bridge at the top of the inline, then back down again.

 

I remember buying inclines for my last layout, but it was too small a layout for me to use the supports properly.

 

I think it brings another dimension to the track, the height dimension.

[Kris]

Gradients certainly do add another element and do add interest. Hope you manage to get these to work for you. 

[gnairn23]

yeah, I probably could of got away with the longer bridge, but hey ho I went with the single one.

I love those suspension bridges you get from Hornby, maybe that's one for a massive layout.

[The Johnster]

Real suspension bridges were not common on railways, as they are designed to flex and move under load (as anyone who has ever driven over the M48 'old' Severn Crossing on a windy day will testify) in a way that trains don't like; it is a lovely model, though, 

 

Gradients certainly add a dimension, both visually and to the operating as well, as they will limit the loads a loco can pull up them, just like they do on real railways.  But model gradients using these sort of proprietry support piers are much steeper than any real railway gradient, and any curves are very much sharper, especially the setrack fixed radius curves that these supports are designed to be used with.  A gradient on a curve, especially a sharp curve, has a sort of corkscrew effect because the inside radius rail is steeper than the outside radius rail.  This can have very adverse effects on the load that the loco can handle, as  against a straight gradient that is, and may affect the way the driving wheels 'sit' on the track and thus have an impact on electrical pickup. 

 

For those reasons, I recommend that you use the largest radius curves possible, and ease the gradient when the curvature starts.  This isn't what you want to hear, as you are already talking about using the curved ends of your oval as part of the gradient to save space.  Another thing to remember is that the bottom and top of the gradient needs to be a smooth transition curve in the vertical plane, otherwise you will have trouble with buffer locking and couplings.  I'd also strongly advise keeping any crossings or turnouts a loco's length away from the top or bottom of any gradients. 

 

Not tryimg to put you off, honest, but it is better that you are aware of these potential issues at a time when you can design them out!

[gnairn23]

thanks that is a very helpful post.

I guess the whole fun of it is trying to see if it will work at all.

I'll be happy if I could just get the tiny Sentinel train around the layout, I've got no desire to load a 12 carriage passenger train up and down it.

I think I'll be using radius 2 R607 curves. 

In my head I have the gradient beginning in the middle of the long straight, going up every 25 sleepers, continue going round the curves and then putting the bridge at the short straight and then back down to the opposite middle of the long straight.

A I said I'am not bothered with getting big engines around, a little steam train or Class 08 will do.

[gnairn23]

Ideally I'd like to do the gradient up and down on the one long straight, but In my head I don't think I can get up to 80mm for the bridge and back down gradually enough.

[JohnR]

This is the front cover of one of Hornby's track plan books, showing just such a gradient on a curve. The piers have been disguised with cork.

 

[gnairn23]

that's brilliant thanks, just what I was after. I bought the R909 supports and not the R658 ones, hopefully they do similar things.

[gnairn23]

Does anyone else use the R909 Hornby track supports to good effect?

On your layout is the incline up and down just on a straight or have you done it to curves aswell?

 

Thanks

[Golden Eagle]

I've made a figure-of-eight using R1 curves which a 0-4-0 pug and a 1980s diesel coped with without difficulty. My other locos can't cope with the R1 curve, but I've had Hornby stock A4s pull six carriages up an R2 curve at whatever-the-minimum-sleeper spacing is.

[gnairn23]

a figure eight would be cool to try, did you do this with R909 supports?

[JDW]

I doubt you'll find many people using them for any kind of serious layout, but I certainly had them and their earlier R658 versions on train sets when I was little and beyond the obvious had no major issues with them. The do the job, but not very elegantly or realistically. Using them on curves should be fine, so long as you take care not to kink the track at the top and bottom, it's the kind of thing they are designed for. 

 

Just a thought - if you're worried about steepness, do you need to go to that height, to get over another track, or do you just want a change of height? If it ends up being too steep, you could reduce the height of the bridge easily enough to match. 

[gnairn23]

thanks.

I'm sure there will be plenty of fun with these, as  I said it brings a new dimension to a model railway layout.

It doesn't need to go over more track. 

In my mind I am planning a large oval, and making the inline go up and around the curve to the shorter straights and put this bridge( https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/shop/accessories/scenic-accessories/bridges/brick-bridge.html), basically just to look cool.

That is encouraging that you have used them when you were little and they do the job. 

I'm not really interested in it looking good or real, it is just the joy of seeing the train go up, over a bridge and then back down again. Even if only a little steam train can make it.

Plus it will be interesting to see if the larger passenger trains can get up and down again.

Edited December 2, 2020 by gnairn23

[JDW]

In that case, without the worry of needing enough height to go over other tracks, at least you know you have the option to reduce the bridge height if the climb is too steep.

[Legend]

Hi Gnairn23 . Yes you will be able to construct a gradient with R909 track supports and you can construct it on a curve . You are right adding height gives another dimension . The only issue I see using R909 is that I think that means you can’t add track side walls like you can with the other elevated supports . It’s a good way of testing out whether you like gradients 

 

In my younger day I actually had a layout much like the one illustrated above  and it was good fun with trains crossing each other either by bridge or diamond crossing .  It really was a fun layout but not at all prototypical . Later on I built layouts using the Grand Victorian Suspension Bridge . Again very entertaining but you do find that suspension bridges aren’t used in real railways (because they are designed to flex) 

 

Latterly I did away with gradients , because the gradients really weren’t prototypical , they had to be steep to fit in the space I had ie the 24 track sleeper space mentioned .I also found that even some larger steam locos like West Country Pacific’s couldn’t haul a rake of 5 coaches up there , so my layout is now all on level . 

Whatever you do , have fun with it . 
 

 

[gnairn23]

thanks, I get them at Christmas, so I'm looking forward to playing with them.

[gnairn23]

Next question.

Do you think it is possible to do an incline up to 80mm over a R189 bridge and then back down on a standard loop that you get from most train sets?

Or do you need a lot more space in your layout to achieve this?

[Kris]

8 minutes ago, gnairn23 said:

Next question.

Do you think it is possible to do an incline up to 80mm over a R189 bridge and then back down on a standard loop that you get from most train sets?

Or do you need a lot more space in your layout to achieve this?

I think this would be pushing it. They need about 1.6-1.7m per side. This gives you a requirement of 3.2 - 3.4m + the bridge length. 

[gnairn23]

yeah I thought as much.

Basically you can build and plan anything your imagination comes up with.

I love the fact  I don't have a permanent layout at the moment as I can make all these funky shapes and then take them apart and do something different next time.

[Kris]

To add a little more to the previous reply. 

 

If the set has 3rd radius curves and 3 R600 straights then you could do it. Half a circle gives you a length of about 2.1m.

If the set has 2nd radius curves and 3 R600 straights then you theoretically do it. Half a circle gives you a length of about 1.9m.

If the set has 1st radius curves and 3 R600 straights then you could not do it. Half a circle gives you a length of about 1.7m.

[gnairn23]

I mainly use 2nd radius curves, but thankfully I put my track down on my kitchen floor and there is plenty of space for the inline and bridge. Infact, I was considering the longer bridge, although I thought start small first and then maybe get a larger one later.

The reason I asked about the oval you get in most Hornby train sets is because I am getting the supports, bridge and a Tornado express train set at Christmas, and was seeing if I could set it up on xmas morning with the oval of track you get.