BR liveries questions

[Hal Nail]

Edit - question referring to mixed traffic locos

 

I was under the impression that lined green early crest was pretty rare as it was short-lived and therefore a fair number of locos skipped this and went straight from black to lined green late crest.

 

A disproportionate number of the locos I've been looking at for my St Blazey (and nearby) area seem to have popped up in it though (predominantly looking at 14xx, 45xx, 43xx). Is that just unlucky (given I don't like it) or was it actually quite common and just not as often photographed due to the relatively short window?

 

On a related note, 5376 definitely had the lined green early livery as there is a very clear photo at Exeter on the Rail Online website but in a 1961 photo from RCTS, it still has the small early crest but absolutely no hint of lining anywhere. It could well be totally obscured by grime but I wondered if locos ever reverted to black?

Edited November 30, 2020 by Hal Nail

[cctransuk]

I couldn't quantify the proportion but, having assembled a collection of some 75,000 BR locomotive images to date, my impression is that early crest / lined green was by no means uncommon.

 

John Isherwood.

[melmerby]

Surely the "big" engines, once green had been standardised on would likely get it before the late crest came in?

 

I believe all these are lined green E/C

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrbns_br2881.htm

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrbns_br2889.htm

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrbns_br1990.htm

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh1252.htm

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh1254.htm

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrls2149.htm

[Hal Nail]

10 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Surely the "big" engines, once green had been standardised on would likely get it before the late crest came in?

 

I believe all these are lined green E/C

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrbns_br2881.htm

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrbns_br2889.htm

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrbns_br1990.htm

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh1252.htm

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh1254.htm

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrls2149.htm

I have edited my question to be clearer. I was only talking about those types initially painted black.

[The Stationmaster]

13 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

Edit - question referring to mixed traffic locos

 

I was under the impression that lined green early crest was pretty rare as it was short-lived and therefore a fair number of locos skipped this and went straight from black to lined green late crest.

 

A disproportionate number of the locos I've been looking at for my St Blazey (and nearby) area seem to have popped up in it though (predominantly looking at 14xx, 45xx, 43xx). Is that just unlucky (given I don't like it) or was it actually quite common and just not as often photographed due to the relatively short window?

 

On a related note, 5376 definitely had the lined green early livery as there is a very clear photo at Exeter on the Rail Online website but in a 1961 photo from RCTS, it still has the small early crest but absolutely no hint of lining anywhere. It could well be totally obscured by grime but I wondered if locos ever reverted to black?

If it was in plain green with the late crest it sounds as if it was repainted in WR 'economy green' which I'm afraid I can't accurately date but seems to have started c.1960 in some works.

[Hal Nail]

6 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

If it was in plain green with the late crest it sounds as if it was repainted in WR 'economy green' which I'm afraid I can't accurately date but seems to have started c.1960 in some works.

 

In the earlier photo it is definitely lined green early crest. Really clear photo at Exeter.

 

in the later (black and white) photo it is still an early crest but you would swear blind it is unlined black but, on reflection, I suspect it's just so grimy you cant see the lining anywhere. 

 

I had just wondered initially if they sometimes reverted to black but was clutching at straws as I can't find an example in the format I wanted to model.

 

 

 

[melmerby]

23 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

I have edited my question to be clearer. I was only talking about those types initially painted black.

According to "Great Western Way" formerly lined black locos were starting to be painted lined green in 1955 (except Kings and Castles which were already lined green) , the late emblem didn't appear until 1957 so about two years of green painting with early crest.

[TheSignalEngineer]

6 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

 

In the earlier photo it is definitely lined green early crest. Really clear photo at Exeter.

 

in the later (black and white) photo it is still an early crest but you would swear blind it is unlined black but, on reflection, I suspect it's just so grimy you cant see the lining anywhere. 

 

I had just wondered initially if they sometimes reverted to black but was clutching at straws as I can't find an example in the format I wanted to model.

 

 

 

The Dapol Mogul in lined green early crest moved to Tyseley in the 1960s. Although most of the pictures at that time appear to show it in Unlined Grot/ No Crest there is one in 1964 where the lining is definitely visible on one corner of the cab side.

I think there are at least a copule on the Colour Rail site in plain black and late crest.

[Hal Nail]

On 02/12/2020 at 00:35, TheSignalEngineer said:

Although most of the pictures at that time appear to show it in Unlined Grot/ No Crest there is one in 1964 where the lining is definitely visible on one corner of the cab side

Yes having thought about the timings, I think it's highly unlikely any loco (5376 specifically) would have reverted to unlined black with early crest after receiving lined green.

 

Means you really cant be sure what you are seeing from a black and white photo - several 45xx I had thought stayed in black, I've then later found one photo showing lining.

 

Lined green early crest was particularly common in St Blazey locos which is why I started to wonder whether it was fairly widespread. I've since found various lists of those that got that livery and for whatever reason, a relatively high proportion were from down there.

Edited November 16, 2023 by Hal Nail

[The Stationmaster]

13 hours ago, melmerby said:

According to "Great Western Way" formerly lined black locos were starting to be painted lined green in 1955 (except Kings and Castles which were already lined green) , the late emblem didn't appear until 1957 so about two years of green painting with early crest.

Eric Mountford kept meticulous notes and he recorded the following while working at Caerphilly Works He steted the following in his book about the works -

 

Instructions were issued in November ... 1956  that certain main line passenger engines were to be painted in green and lined out whilst smaller passenger and mixed traffic engines were to be painted green. ('Kings' and castles' were - as you say - already painted in lined green).

A further instruction dated 25 January 1957 specified that all engines painted green were to be lined out.

 

There does however appear to be some evidence that painting engines in green started earlier at Swindon than the issue of the instruction to other works.  It is possible that the same applied in respect of lining but confirming that one way or another would need accurately dated observations (from the 'Railway Observer' probably).

 

Caerphilly began painting engines in unlined green from December 1956 and apart from 6306 and 7300 all the engines it painted in unlined green were 0-6-2Ts or large prairies.  Only one engine e was painted in lined green at Caerphilly prior to the January 1957 instruction and that was 5921.

 

The first engine to be turned out of Caerphilly in lined green after the  january 1957 instruction was 4152 on 15 February followed by 4164, 5170, 6308, 5621, and 4358.  There was seemingly some confusion over the way in which tenders should be lined and 6308 had s single lining panel incorrectly carried up over the fenders while    4358 was correctly lined with a separate panel on the fenders.

 

Caerphilly works always buffed up safety valve covers, even on engines painted black.   The works also. painted the reversing rods of tender engines red until instructed to stop doing so by a letter from Swindon dated early November 1958; the last engine outshopped with a red painted reversing rod was 6345 in October 1958. (I suspect this practice was only applied to engines with lever reverse, I have never come across anything which suggests the rod was painted red on engines with a screw reverser - someone might know for definite?).

 

Caerphilly first applied the new emblem to an engine in March 1957 but that was probably because they had been using up stocks of the first emblem as it was a while after the new emblem had first appeared.

 

In July 1957 the works received an instructions to discontinue the two panel lining of tenders and the first engine to be outshopped with only a single panel of lining was 6386 on 29 July.

 

However things move backward somewhat in March 1958 when 2266 left painted in ooverall black and this policy was then applied to some - but not all - smaller classes.  there is no mention of Caerphilly being involved in the painting of engines in 'economy green' but it definitely happened at Swindon as photos of ex-works engines clearly show.

Edited December 2, 2020 by The Stationmaster

[The Johnster]

As always, best guess until better information comes to light has to be resorted to in lieu of provenanced photo or definitive information such as Mr Mountford's above, in some cases.  There seems to have been a plethora of classes painted in lined green that had never had the livery before, such as 54/64xx and 14xx (passenger livery by virtue of auto fitting), and both small and large prairies of all types.  'MT' classed locos were in theory to be given LNWR style lined black livery, but Halls, Granges, Manors, Moguls, Collett Goods, and 56xx, all locos that had been classed as mixed traffic by BR though the WR never took much notice of this, were turned out in lined green at both Swindon and Caerphilly.  Some BR standards, again regarded as mixed traffic locos and that had been originally turned out in the (correct0 lined black livery, were painted lined green in WR workshops, 73xxx, 75xxx, 82xxx, and 78xxx/Ivatt 2MT moguls.  I believe some 73xxx recieved lined green livery at Derby as well. 

 

Of the mixed traffic locos, all but the named locos and the 73xxx also appeared in 'economy' unlined green, though I would be reluctant to state that this appeared with the unicycling lion emblem.  TTBOMK 'economy' never appeared on on 54/64xx, or 14xx (58xx and 74xx were always regarded as freight locos and painted plain black).

 

All in all, and unlike the other regions, a minority GW designs carried unlined black throughout their BR painted lives.  28xx, ROD 30xx, 94xx, 16xx, and 15xx, and the 42xx/5205/72xx, 1361/6, and i think that's it.  The GW absorbed/constituents that were painted by BR were all plain black.  

 

Exceptions to this are locos painted between 1/1/48 and 31/5/48, to the first BR livery instruction.  On the WR, this was interpreted as unlined green for all locos except Kings, Castles, Halls, and Hawkworth Counties (those that had been lined from the 1942 instruction), but with 1923 style 'BRITISH RAILWAYS' branding on tank or tender sides in GW style 'Egyptian Serif' lettering.  This was replaced by the new Riddles official standard liveries from 1/6/48, including blues for Kings and IIRC one or two Castles, lined green with 'BRITISH RAILWAYS' in Gill Sans for Castles, Halls, and Counties, lined black for mixed traffic locos, and plain black for everything else.  In the event, only a small number of mixed traffic tank locos, 43xx, or 2251s, recieved the mixed traffic lined livery and one or two Old Oak 57xx for Paddington ecs duties.  The unicycling lion became available in, IIRC, September 1949.  There was an instruction from Marylebone Road that all except BR standard locos of power class 4 or lower were to be painted unlined black at this period, but the WR does not seem to have taken much notice. 

 

I am not sure when the practice of painting name and number plates with red backing was introduced or when it was discontinued, but I believe it was introduced on 1/6/48 and may have been applied at the sheds to locos in previous liveries.  It seems to have been discontinued in the early 50s, but I'm sure examples could be seen in traffic long after that.  It is important to remember if  you are only familiar with the importance of branding and the rapid application of liveries and logos on the current railway, that in those days a loco would retain the last livery it had been painted with until it's next major overhaul that justified a repaint, which would not be unitl a set mileage had been run, so liveries could be seen in traffic for over a decade  after their replacement, and of course this means that low mileage locos 'missed out' on one or more liveries!  On top of that, locos painted at Swindon were simply painted over, and previous liveries could sometimes show through these repaintings, which could wear off, hence photos of locos in G W R initials unlined green or austerity black dating from well into the 60s!

 

Edited December 2, 2020 by The Johnster

[Miss Prism]

5 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Caerphilly began painting engines in unlined green from December 1956 and apart from 6306 and 7300 all the engines it painted in unlined green were 0-6-2Ts or large prairies.

 

I wasn't aware of 6306 and 7300 in unlined green. Thanks. I understand the large prairies you mention are 4121, 4160, 5169 and 8103. Also, I understand small prairie 4569 and Mogul 6326 appeared in unlined green at that time.

 

[ikcdab]

On 30/11/2020 at 21:53, cctransuk said:

I couldn't quantify the proportion but, having assembled a collection of some 75,000 BR locomotive images to date, my impression is that early crest / lined green was by no means uncommon.

 

John Isherwood.

Wow,  that's some collection. Going off topic, how do you manage and index them, how do you protect them (physically and digitally) and when old father time waves his wand,  how do you protect them for the future? 

I only ask because I have a much smaller collection and I am pondering those questions. 

Ian

[cctransuk]

2 hours ago, ikcdab said:

Wow,  that's some collection. Going off topic, how do you manage and index them, how do you protect them (physically and digitally) and when old father time waves his wand,  how do you protect them for the future? 

I only ask because I have a much smaller collection and I am pondering those questions. 

Ian

 

Ian,

 

Indexing - loco number, followed by _01, _02, _03 etc. I limit the collection to the best images of each subject; maximum 20 images.

 

Protection - auto-backup to Crashplan.

 

The future - don't bother; they are all sourced from the internet; I only save them so that I can find them when I want them.

 

Selfish, perhaps - but I've no interest in preserving other people's copyright images for posterity; that's for the copyright owners.

 

John Isherwood.

 

 

[ikcdab]

3 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

Ian,

 

Indexing - loco number, followed by _01, _02, _03 etc. I limit the collection to the best images of each subject; maximum 20 images.

 

Protection - auto-backup to Crashplan.

 

The future - don't bother; they are all sourced from the internet; I only save them so that I can find them when I want them.

 

Selfish, perhaps - but I've no interest in preserving other people's copyright images for posterity; that's for the copyright owners.

 

John Isherwood.

 

 

Ok John,  thanks,  sounds sensible. 

[Hal Nail]

On 02/12/2020 at 18:35, Miss Prism said:

Also, I understand small prairie 4569 and Mogul 6326 appeared in unlined green at that time

 

4569 unlined green large early crest in Steam Colour Portfolio, GWR volume 1, Pirt in July 57. It later acquired the larger style of totem (with lining), which was also unusual.

Edited December 6, 2020 by Hal Nail