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Hunslet 16" 0-6-0 Saddle Tank - 00 Gauge


rapidoandy
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It would seem that Rapido are adopting an integrated approach to the design of their steam-outline locos that departs from the traditional body unit + chassis unit that makes gauge conversion relatively simple.

 

If the OO mechanism and body "dovetail" into one another, part of the latter may go missing when removing the former, necessitating some fairly complex surgery to reuse it unless a dedicated EM/P4 chassis kit is produced that includes a replacement. That would also render the original chassis worthless for re-sale. Given that r-t-r models are produced in relatively small quantities these days, it's also less likely to be commercially viable than something applicable to all Rapido models.

 

Depending on the nature of Rapido's axles (and a hope/assumption that the dimensions are common to all), a possible solution might be extending them. Possibly tiny spacers on which to mount their own wheels further out for EM, and adaptors incorporating plain stubs to accept  aftermarket wheels in EM or P4.

 

However, the small dimensions might make getting a robust and accurate assembly difficult. A better answer might lie in the wheel-makers producing dedicated centres to fit Rapido axles, incorporating the appropriate offset. Again, though, is the potential market sufficient to make that worthwhile?   

 

I only work in OO, so it's not my problem, but the traders who service the finescale community are renowned for their ingenuity and somebody who wants one for himself is likely to make it happen.  

 

John

Edited by Dunsignalling
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23 hours ago, davknigh said:

It sounds like Rapido is using the same type of mechanism as they have used for their Royal Hudson and the upcoming CPR D10 in HO. It would make sense for them to use the same mechanism in any UK steam. 
 

Cheers,

 

David

So a geared drive to all the coupled axles - which is not what they did with the 16XX .  BTW I don't know how the drive is arranged on the D10 but the Royal Hudson has geared drive to all the coupled axles  -  a fairly standard feature of Chinese factory design unless the customer plumps for something else.  Geared drive is not necessarily a bad idea but it does require a lot of very careful attention in both the design and manufacturing stages if it is to work properly.  I believe the initial Hudsons had some problems  with it although Rapido did sort them so they appear to know the pitfalls.

Edited by The Stationmaster
Correct typos
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You'll forgive me but I really don't understand the desire makers have for this type of chassis design and construction. With diesels there is no other option, but for steam locos with coupled wheelsets? I found it a poor but perhaps neccesary tactic in N gauge back in the past when manufacturing production line standards weren't as capable, giving coupling rods that went each and every way and looking very unreal, but today? What is the percieved advantage? There must be one but I can't see it and feel I'm missing something quite obvious.

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16 hours ago, Izzy said:

You'll forgive me but I really don't understand the desire makers have for this type of chassis design and construction. With diesels there is no other option, but for steam locos with coupled wheelsets? I found it a poor but perhaps neccesary tactic in N gauge back in the past when manufacturing production line standards weren't as capable, giving coupling rods that went each and every way and looking very unreal, but today? What is the percieved advantage? There must be one but I can't see it and feel I'm missing something quite obvious.

I would have thought it is relatively straightforward - it is what some of the factories are used to and it's an assembly system they understand and have used for years.   I suspect that the oddity has been models made in the past for some markets, such as the UK, where some sort of worm drive and coupling rods was the norm but even then additional gears would have been used for drive between axles on some models.

 

There's not necessarily anything wrong with doing it this way but it does require a high level of precision to get it working really well  and looking as it should on a steam outline model where coupling rods are involved

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On 03/03/2021 at 17:12, Captain Kernow said:

Either way, I just hope it's not the same designer that produced the DJM 14XX!

 

Yup. Wonder what he is doing these days.  Probably not jetting off to China regularly ||

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  • 4 weeks later...

A rtr model of "Ring Haw" which was sister loco to "Jacks Green" at Nassington appears to be an exclusive available from one retailer. I found out about it through word of mouth, not RMweb (which was odd?), so posting a link here:

 

https://hardyshobbies.co.uk/shop/partners/rapido/rapido-trains-16-hunslet-ring-haw-hardys-hobbies-exclusive/

 

No affiliation, other than suggesting this model would be a good move a few pages ago... :mocking_mini:

 

Paul A. 

Edited by 1whitemoor
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On 03/03/2021 at 17:12, Captain Kernow said:

Either way, I just hope it's not the same designer that produced the DJM 14XX!

 

Given that my 1450, and several others I've seen running, don't misbehave in the way all your would-be purchases unfortunately did, Tim, I'd suggest it was a production tolerance and/or QC issue rather than an intrinsic design fault.

 

Does anyone know how many gears sit between the axles? A single idler with even half-decent meshing ought to be pretty foolproof.  I therefore suspect there's a chain of three (possibly necessary for adequate concealment) and that would require much greater precision. 

 

John

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45 minutes ago, 1whitemoor said:

A rtr model of "Ring Haw" which was sister loco to "Jacks Green" at Nassington appears to be an exclusive available from one retailer. I found out about it through word of mouth, not RMweb (which was odd?), so posting a link here:

 

https://hardyshobbies.co.uk/shop/partners/rapido/rapido-trains-16-hunslet-ring-haw-hardys-hobbies-exclusive/

 

No affiliation, other than suggesting this model would be a good move a few pages ago... :mocking_mini:

 

Paul A. 

Pre ordered mine, one of only 120 so I don't think they will be around long! This went live yesterday and already half of the pre orders have gone, so if you want a model to go perfectly with Jacks Green or just want a RTR north Norfolk resident (Which I believe this model is the first not counting Black Prince) I would say get moving sharpish!

This one also apparently comes with unpainted crew and bag of real coal which is something the main range doesn't offer. Perhaps this could be sold by rapido as an optional extra? 

Brad.

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23 hours ago, Team Traction said:

Pre ordered mine, one of only 120 so I don't think they will be around long! This went live yesterday and already half of the pre orders have gone, so if you want a model to go perfectly with Jacks Green or just want a RTR north Norfolk resident (Which I believe this model is the first not counting Black Prince) I would say get moving sharpish!

This one also apparently comes with unpainted crew and bag of real coal which is something the main range doesn't offer. Perhaps this could be sold by rapido as an optional extra? 

Brad.

 

I believe the crew and coal load are extras supplied by Hardys Hobbies rather than supplied by Rapido for this specific model. 

 

I've ordered mine. Now deciding whether to get Jacks Green as well... 

 

- James

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The Ring Haw link was very useful, I’d no knowledge of Hardy’s previously but from the link I discovered a whole host of interesting items I’d no idea existed...or that I needed.

 

The RSH “Ugly” was a real find, I came across a GA plan a few years ago and had started to scratch build one which didn’t progress very far. This has rendered it redundant.

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On 09/04/2021 at 07:24, neal said:

At NLR several years ago...

 

89606C62-BB57-4CDB-BBFE-F2B4467975A4.jpeg.ae76ac503750fc558095b4aab05f418e.jpeg

 

Lovely picture.  Very many thanks .

 

Also, very many thanks to 1whitemoor for the link to Hardy's.  One RING HAW duly ordered and paid for.

 

Les

 

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On 05/04/2021 at 15:16, Dunsignalling said:

Given that my 1450, and several others I've seen running, don't misbehave in the way all your would-be purchases unfortunately did, Tim, I'd suggest it was a production tolerance and/or QC issue rather than an intrinsic design fault.

The Good Captain must have thought it was a plot against him personally with his DJH 14xx!  Even I am not normally that unlucky. 

 

As Mike says, 'fully geared to each driving axle' steam chassis are normal and it is really only the UK market that specifies worm and gear drive from Chinese factories.  That said, I think worm and gear is superior in most instances, especially with RTR locos that have longer wheelbases.  This is because a degree of slop tolerance must be incorporated to get the loco around train set curves, and it is much easier to provide this in the coupling rod bearings than with the precision meshing needed by the gear approach.  Plus of course the coupling rods get to fulfill their proper prototypical function, which is why I prefer my drives to be on the connecting rod axle though to be fair I don't really notice the rear driving wheels of my Bachmann locos taking up the drive first. 

 

It's a sort of general principle of mine that, where this is feasible,  the model should do what the real thing does.  Taken to an extreme but accepting that in 4mm live steam for smaller prototype is probably unworkable so retaining the 12v dc electric motor as the prmie mover, this would entail steam locos driven by pistons which moved back and forth linked to cross mounted crank/eccentric arms driven by the motor through camshafts and gears; it may be just as well that some of my ideas are not translated into RTR practice...

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On 09/05/2021 at 09:22, The Johnster said:

The Good Captain must have thought it was a plot against him personally with his DJH 14xx!  Even I am not normally that unlucky. 

 

As Mike says, 'fully geared to each driving axle' steam chassis are normal and it is really only the UK market that specifies worm and gear drive from Chinese factories.  That said, I think worm and gear is superior in most instances, especially with RTR locos that have longer wheelbases.  This is because a degree of slop tolerance must be incorporated to get the loco around train set curves, and it is much easier to provide this in the coupling rod bearings than with the precision meshing needed by the gear approach.  Plus of course the coupling rods get to fulfill their proper prototypical function, which is why I prefer my drives to be on the connecting rod axle though to be fair I don't really notice the rear driving wheels of my Bachmann locos taking up the drive first. 

 

It's a sort of general principle of mine that, where this is feasible,  the model should do what the real thing does.  Taken to an extreme but accepting that in 4mm live steam for smaller prototype is probably unworkable so retaining the 12v dc electric motor as the prmie mover, this would entail steam locos driven by pistons which moved back and forth linked to cross mounted crank/eccentric arms driven by the motor through camshafts and gears; it may be just as well that some of my ideas are not translated into RTR practice...

Actually, I don't think that it is true to say  'fully geared to each driving axle' is the norm. It was true for almost all N-scale and Marklin/Fleischmann/Trix 40 years ago, but today it is very much the exception to the rule. Occasionally a manufacturer will drive to gears on two axles, such as the Bachmann 9F and D11, (I forget exactly what Bachmann did for the GN atlantic - I seem to remember it was designed for gearing to both axles, but didn't have the gears installed) , or Fleischmann 94, but very seldom to more than that. There are still some German manufacturers that gear axles together, but they are generally the same lot that are fond of plastic valve gear and coupling rods. eg. Piko, Gutzold, Tillig and Bemo. (I model European, American and British, so I have wide exposure to what is out there).

 

Due to the challenges of backlash in the gears, you either have to have a gear train designed with the same number of meshes between motor and all the axles. (No long gear train driven at one end), or significant slop in the coupling rods. Of course, assembly is a challenge....If you are one tooth out the loco can jam...don't ask. Ok, confessions. That was EXACTLY what was wrong with my DJM austerity. Carefully re-assembled it runs fine. At least being six coupled it doesn't suffer from rods that twirl around at strange angles, like the 14XX or 02.

 

Frankly, I'm very surprised that Rapido chose to do this. By gearing the axles you lose the possibility of sprung and/or compensated axles. 

 

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23 hours ago, mdvle said:

With no knowledge of what they plan to do design wise, but I would point out that at least their HO Royal Hudson is fully geared to each driving axle - see parts diagram - https://rapidotrains.com/sites/default/files/manuals/2019/07/600-BOM.pdf

and I have haven't read/heard about any complaints about it.

 

 

 

Ah yes but Canadians are less pernickity about these things than us uptight Brits.....

 

Les

 

....who has several Continental locos with gears to all wheels which perform superbly.

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  • 3 months later...
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12 minutes ago, rapidoandy said:

Well Phil has beaten us to it…

 

Richard told me we could go at 12 to match the Rapido newsletter. (is there anyone not signed up to this too? Go and do it - it's worth it for the entertainment)

 

You definitely caught the lubricator pipework better than me in that photo - it is absolutely amazing. I'm not surprised you are pleased with these models.

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That's it, just couldn't resist pre-ordering 'Holly Bank No.3' in the blue livery, it'll fit in just nicely, can't wait to take a pic of it passing my model based on the Bursnips Road crossing box/ mine office. Summat similar to this;-

 

holly bank.jpg

Edited by bike2steam
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