WR ‘15XX’ 0-6-0PT - 00 Gauge

[TheSignalEngineer]

2 hours ago, 9402 Fredrick said:

I'm hoping for rails, tmc, or hattons to be on that list since derails can't do international shippinh rn.

The Rapido Trains UK announcement was featured on the Rails website.

I assume they will still be stocking Rapido as they have been involved in commissions with them and the Birmingham Bus project. was sold through Rails.

[Steamport Southport]

Mentioned in the Kernow newsletter as well.

 

 

 

Jason

[boxbrownie]

I don’t need one, nor do I want one.........I’ll probably buy one though 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 6, 2020 by boxbrownie

[JimC]

On 03/12/2020 at 11:21, The Stationmaster said:

On most views of the engines in traffic, except two of the left side of 1509 the feed pipes aren't visible above the tops of the tanks.  On 1509 the left side pipe is visible above the top of the tank and turns back towards the cab before going down.  ...  No doubt the original Swindon pipe drawings will show how the engines were when built.

Isn't that sort of thing liable to have varied before and after overhauls? Might be a bit of an assumption to reckon that any given photograph represents the loco over all its life.

Edited December 16, 2020 by JimC

[Blandford1969]

10 hours ago, JimC said:

Isn't that sort of thing liable to have varied before and after overhauls? Might be a bit of an assumption to reckon that any given photograph represents the loco over all its life.

There is not much room between the tanks and boiler on the engine and I am not sure the fitters would have been happy with pipes they could not get to. 

 

Lets be honest that photos of the tops of anything is rarer considering where most photos in the day were taken from. As for only a couple of views showing the pipes there are more . Its also made more challenging by the ejector pipe running along  to top edge of the tank.  here are a couple of examples of what I mean side on of 1507,  however in this one you can see the bend in the delivery pipe where it has come up through the tank. 

 

This one of 1500 you can see the feedwater pipes on the top of the tanks 1500 side on view , 1501 there are quite a few views in BR days with the pipes visible on the top and can certainly be seen in a number of views 1502 , 1504 , 1505  1506 , you can see it again but just the corner of the bend as it goes through the tank here , 1508 and again with 1509 where it bends.

 

I am sure they will have access to works drawings. 

 

Conversely I have never seen any photographic evidence of the feedwater pipes not going through the tanks, or of them having backhead clacks as many panniers did.  Possibly the best pannier going, certainly in ease of prep with no need for a pit, although oddly they always seem hotter to work on than a normally aspirated pannier. Also not having to double, de clutch to notch up means acceleration is better.  Normal Panniers for those who don't know have slide valves, when steam is on in easy terms the valve is held down by pressure of steam so you have to open the blower, shut off, move the reverser, open up and close the blower again. Whereas a 15xx being piston, with steam pressure being even you can move the gear without any of that. To answer the other obvious ones, to not shut off with a slide valve engine risks the reverser moving either way under pressure of steam and breaking bones, it happens (still). However the double de clutch is fun. 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 17, 2020 by Blandford1969
Adding a comment about backhead clacks

[Steamport Southport]

Did they have many overhauls though?

 

They only lasted between 9 and 14 years. I doubt some even had their boilers off.

 

 

Jason

[Les1952]

On 17/12/2020 at 14:58, Steamport Southport said:

Did they have many overhauls though?

 

They only lasted between 9 and 14 years. I doubt some even had their boilers off.

 

 

Jason

 

If someone can unearth a Railway Bylines article on them it could well have a works history for the whole class with it.  It is the sort of class Bylines loves so there must be a good chance of such an article existing.

 

Just a thought.

Les

 

[Dunsignalling]

On 17/12/2020 at 14:58, Steamport Southport said:

Did they have many overhauls though?

 

They only lasted between 9 and 14 years. I doubt some even had their boilers off.

 

 

Jason

It would certainly be unlikely that any would have needed more than one over so short a service life.

 

John

[The Stationmaster]

As so often the 'Pannier Papers' comes to the rescue -

HG = Heavy General, HC = Heavy Casual, LC = Light Casual, U = Unclassfied

 

1500 2x HG  Swindon 1954 and 1956, 1 x HC 1962  Wolverhampton, 3 x U OOC factory, I xU  at Southall shops

 

1501 1 x HG (1955), 1xLC (Newton Abbot), 3 xU all at Southall

 

1502 1xHG 1953 Swindon, 1 x HC 1957 Wolverhampton

 

1503 2x HG Swindon 1954 & 1961, 1 x LC Oswestry 1958. 2 x U OOC factory

 

1504 2xHC Swindon 1954 and Caerphilly1961, 1 x Heavy Intermediate Swindon 1957,  3 x U OOC Shed, I x U OOC Factory

 

1505 1xHG Swindon 1954, 1xLC Oswestry 1958, 2xU OOC shed, 2xU OOC Factory

 

1506 1xHG Caerphilly 1961, 1x Heavy Intermediate Swindon 1958, , 1xU Worcester shops, 3xU Npt Pill shops  

 

1507 2xHG Swindon 1955, Wolverhampton1960, 1xU Npt Pill shops, 1xU Caerphily1955, 2xU OOC shed

 

1508  1xHG Swindon 1958, 1xLC Swindon, 1xLC Ebbw Jcn Factory, IxU Ebbw Jcn Factory, 1xU Glo'ster Shops, 1x U Canton Shops

 

1509 1x HG Swindon 1954, 1xU Aberdare shops. 

 

So over their lives all except 1504 had at least one Heavy General while 1504 had 2 Heavy Casuals.  In terms of where attention took place -

 

1. Heavy Generals or Heavy Casuals were carried out at three different WR main works while Light Casuals were carried out at the other two - but the class in total visited all the WR main works over their lives.  

2. Unclassfieds and Light Casuals were carried out at two sheds with Divisional Factories which could do almost as much as the main works in terms of repairs and changing parts.   Both of those factories could lift off side tanks although i'm not sure if they could lift boilers.

 

Putting it in simple terms every engine in the class was dismantled to some extent during its working life and at locations with varying detail in working practice.  Only one engiune did not receive a Heavy General overhaul but did undergo two Heavy Casuals which would probably have been almost as extensive.

[MPR]

26 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

As so often the 'Pannier Papers' comes to the rescue 

HG = Heavy General, HC = Heavy Casual, LC = Light Casual, U = Unclassfied

 

1501 1 x HG (1955), 1xLC (Newton Abbot), 3 xU all at Southall

I am intrigued by the idea that 1501 has been to South Devon once before its recent visit to Buckfastleigh. I would assume that it would have been run in before return to its home shed. Do you know how Newton Abbot handled this?

[JimC]

On 17/12/2020 at 10:05, Blandford1969 said:

, or of them having backhead clacks as many panniers did.  

It would be very surprising if any (or any 94s) did. I've never heard of a standard 10 boiler (introduced in the 20s IIRC) without top feed, whereas the P class boilers on 57s and their 19thC cousins could be much older. 

 

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

As so often the 'Pannier Papers' comes to the rescue -

...

Putting it in simple terms every engine in the class was dismantled to some extent during its working life and at locations with varying detail in working practice.  Only one engiune did not receive a Heavy General overhaul but did undergo two Heavy Casuals which would probably have been almost as extensive.

So it's likely that most if not all received exchange boilers? It would be interesting to know whether the unsuperheated Std 10 boilers were pooled with the 94s or whether there was a small difference. I haven't got RCTS here, and in any case it's not always very good on that level of detail. 

 

In any case those dates will hopefully enable at least dated photographs to be evaluated. Thank you. 

 

[Miss Prism]

There seems no obvious difference (in RCTS) between a superheated Standard 10 and a non-superheated one. No 10s were shared with Collett Goods and other classes. Offhand, I'm not sure whether superheating was the norm for the Collett Goods.

 

[Dunsignalling]

Thanks for that, Mike.

 

XXX Two Heavy Generals for 1500 only separated by two years seems exceptional..XXX

 

It would be fascinating to know what happened to necessitate a second soo soon.

 

Accident, possibly, or perhaps bringing the first-built into line with modifications incorporated into later members of the class?

 

John

 

POST REDUNDANT

Edited December 22, 2020 by Dunsignalling

[mdvle]

4 hours ago, MPR said:

I am intrigued by the idea that 1501 has been to South Devon once before its recent visit to Buckfastleigh. I would assume that it would have been run in before return to its home shed. Do you know how Newton Abbot handled this?

 

A website saying it is the 1501 Pannier Tank Association says 1501 was at Newton Abbot in January 1953, though the rest of the history seems to agree with BR Database that 1501 spent it's British Rail life at Southall other than an initial brief time at OOC.

 

https://1501pta.jimdofree.com/7-locomotive-history/

 

[JimC]

7 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

There seems no obvious difference (in RCTS) between a superheated Standard 10 and a non-superheated one. No 10s were shared with Collett Goods and other classes. Offhand, I'm not sure whether superheating was the norm for the Collett Goods.

 

'scuse if this is egg sucking tuition, I am away from home and RCTS. The info, if recorded,  should be in the boiler appendices. They normally list the 2 letter GWR code against the entries, but often list several types in the heading rather than the individual lines. The first letter is the boiler class, eg K for Std 10, so the first variation would have been KA, and would have been followed by KB, KC etc.  I think all the original Std 10s were superheated, and it was only the 15s and the outsourced 94s that had unsuperheated Std 10s. So in the boiler appendix they should list at least two basic types of Std 10/K, super and none super, and they may list subtypes.

[Miss Prism]

Two types are indeed listed, Jim - group 22, being the qty 230 (superheated) 'code KA', and group 23, being the qty 215 saturated 'code KB'. They are stated to be identical apart from the superheater elements. The high number of superheated versions seems to indicate the Collett Goods were superheated.

 

 

[JimC]

Yes, 2251s and the absorbed 062Ts were superheated, and from that it seems the 15s and the 94s shared the same boiler pool. I've always assumed the GWR built 94s being superheated was evidence that they were intended as traffic locomotives, but I find myself wondering if they were simply fitted with secondhand boilers from the pool. I wonder if 9400 has a superheated or saturated boiler now. Anyone know? 

 

We've got a long way off the topic, but I suggest there's good evidence that one should not be dogmatic about detailed fittings on any particular 15 without a dated photograph since they may well have changed over the locomotive's life. Who'd be a model manufacturer! 

Edited December 22, 2020 by JimC

[The Stationmaster]

21 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Thanks for that, Mike.

 

Two Heavy Generals for 1500 only separated by two years seems exceptional..

 

It would be fascinating to know what happened to necessitate a second soo soon.

 

Accident, possibly, or perhaps bringing the first-built into line with modifications incorporated into later members of the class?

 

John

Sorry John and everybody - there was typo in there as the 1954 visit to Swindon was for a Heavy Casual, not for a Heavy General - that was f done in 1956.   The mileage at the 1954 visit was actually little different from that at which some of the Class received a heavy general which suggest the condition of the engine was such that it did not need a full General overhauls.

 

Generally the South Wales engines accrued far higher mileages before receiving their first HG overhaul - twice what the London engines managed although 1504 never had an HG but had 2 x HC.  Every engine in the class carried at lest two different boilers during its life and the considerable range of boiler numbers indicates they came from a very large pool. (i.e. RCTS Appendix Group 23 which totalled 215 boilers.)

[JimC]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

. (i.e. RCTS Appendix Group 23 which totalled 215 boilers.)

That's an interesting number. There were 10 GWR built 94s, 200 outsourced 94s and 10 1500s. So that suggests that there were never enough saturated KB boilers (Std 10 saturated) for all the 94s, so it seems likely a few always had KA boilers. I wonder if that was always the first 10, and whether the superheated locomotives were allocated different tasks. 

 

Unless, I suppose, any KA boilers were converted to be non superheated. Presumably there was a good supply of  KA boilers in the 50s as pre group locomotives were withdrawn with boilers that would have had life left. 

Edited December 22, 2020 by JimC

[Les1952]

On 22/12/2020 at 12:46, The Stationmaster said:

Sorry John and everybody - there was typo in there as the 1954 visit to Swindon was for a Heavy Casual, not for a Heavy General - that was f done in 1956.   The mileage at the 1954 visit was actually little different from that at which some of the Class received a heavy general which suggest the condition of the engine was such that it did not need a full General overhauls.

 

Generally the South Wales engines accrued far higher mileages before receiving their first HG overhaul - twice what the London engines managed although 1504 never had an HG but had 2 x HC.  Every engine in the class carried at lest two different boilers during its life and the considerable range of boiler numbers indicates they came from a very large pool. (i.e. RCTS Appendix Group 23 which totalled 215 boilers.)

 

More frequent works visits (in mileage terms) for the London engines could be an indication of being asked to run more at the sort of speeds that short wheelbase locos aren't really designed to do. The resultant wagging would set up much more wear- big outside cylinders swinging rapidly from side to side. I would expect them to have similar kinds of problems in these circumstances as the Thompson L1s, rough riding and wearing themselves out.  The South Wales locos would do more slow running and not experience this wear to the same extent.

 

just a thought

Les

[gwrrob]

An excellent colour photo find of 1502 at Coventry Colliery in the 60s. The colour described as Indian red , a browny red , we call maroon. Photo courtesy of Michael Mears.

 

 

 

 

http://www.nuneatonhistory.com/brickyards-quarries--collieries-extractive-industries.html#

[Amnesiac]

On 01/12/2020 at 11:59, rapidoandy said:

904006: No. 1509, NCB maroon

 

Not a GWR person at all, but I'm 100% getting one of those! My Grandparents moved down to work on that site and live in Keresley Village (also where I grew up), my family before me all worked on that site and in its current state as a Prologis Park, I also work on that site! Lots of sentimentality in this model, thanks Rapido!

[JimC]

On 22/12/2020 at 14:07, JimC said:

So that suggests that there were never enough saturated KB boilers (Std 10 saturated) for all the 94s,

Does anyone here have access to the records for 9400-9409 to tell us what boilers they had? 

[Ribird]

Brining this to light about the current CADs and now soon-to-be-released 16xx. Will the coal bunker be one piece or a separate piece like the 16xx has been produced with? The mould lines aren't the best and just looks off. 

 

Images of the 15xx is from this thread, while the 16xx is off another RM, but using Model Rail's picture. 

[Ventnor]

7 hours ago, Ribird said:

Brining this to light about the current CADs and now soon-to-be-released 16xx. Will the coal bunker be one piece or a separate piece like the 16xx has been produced with? The mould lines aren't the best and just looks off. 

 

Images of the 15xx is from this thread, while the 16xx is off another RM, but using Model Rail's picture. 

There also appears to be two handbrake recesses in the cab backsheet (bunker) of the 16xx i.e. one drivers side and one firemans side........unless 16xx's were fitted with water pick up apparatus ; ) !! I've not seen that picked up in the 16xx thread unless I've missed it (apologies if I have). Only just noticed it myself. I guess wait and see the models in the flesh.......which will be imminently. 

 

Cheers

 

Andy.