Scottish 2P smokebox door white fixtures

[Firecrest]

Hi all,

 

Supremely niche question here but...

 

I'm just working on a rebuild of a Mainline 2P (discovered looking very sad for itself on Hitchin market) and am going to finish it as 40621, which was allocated to 67A Corkerhill. 

 

I've seen a few pics of it on the scrapline at 67A after withdrawal and in some it looks as though it had its smokebox door hinges and handrail lined out in white, as seemed to be the case with some of the 2Ps up there. However, I'm not sure that my mind is playing tricks (probably)… is there (anywhere) a list of 2Ps that were treated as such, and putting the links to the two pics of it I've seen at 67A, what does everyone else think? 

 

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p1007954498/hC568A443#hc568a443 - from the Rail Online site

 

https://www.derbysulzers.com/snow.html from the rather excellent Derby Sulzers site

 

As I said, it could be the vagaries of old negatives, but I'd be interested in opinions.

 

Finally, just as a matter of interest, the body of the Mainline 2P that's being fettled and a much later Hornby version (40685) that's next in the queue seem different - I thought it was the same Airfix/Mainline/Dapol/Hornby mould? There's definite differences in the whistles, reverser and chimney for a start... has Hornby retooled it?

 

Best as ever, and thanks in advance

 

Chris

[flubrush]

I remember pictures of Standard Class 4 tanks out of Corkerhill on the Clyde lines with similar "adornments" on their smokebox fronts.  I believe it was a hangover from pre-Grouping practice by engine crews.   I think I remember the photographer was Stewart Rankine who lived down Greenock way.

 

Jim.

 

[Later] Not only Scotland - https://www.lner.info/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4386

Edited December 2, 2020 by flubrush

[Firecrest]

Ah thank you - very helpful link. It’s a good look I think too... will certainly brighten up the front end a touch 

[pH]

Here’s another picture of 40621 withdrawn at Corkerhill:
https://www.railscot.co.uk/img/45/564/

It looks as if the straps, at least, may have been painted white at one time.

 

There would not be a list of engines with white straps or hinges. Those weren’t official embellishments - they were done at the initiative of individual crews or shed staff. 
 

As Flubrush says, unofficial decoration wasn’t unknown on engines from Corkerhill and Polmadie sheds working suburban services. The treatment described in this post was a bit extreme:

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/159259-what-fast-engines-would-work-for-a-branch-line/&do=findComment&comment=4169613

but I’ve seen a photo of one Polmadie Standard 4 tank with the central boss on the smokebox door painted white, and another had a pot lid (!) covering that boss. 
 

Smokebox number plates could be painted colours other than black (see that link above). I have the plate from a Stanier 5 which was withdrawn from Corkerhill. When I scraped it back to the metal, there were traces of light blue there.  However, they were under a couple of coats of black, so I think they dated back to its earlier allocation to Perth.

(Edit to add - white straps on the smokebox seem to have been the most common embellishment. I’ve found pictures of them on a 2P other than 40621, a Fairburn tank, a Standard 4 tank and a couple of Stanier 5s, including one on Royal train duty.)

 

 

Edited December 3, 2020 by pH

[Firecrest]

16 hours ago, pH said:

Here’s another picture of 40621 withdrawn at Corkerhill:
https://www.railscot.co.uk/img/45/564/

It looks as if the straps, at least, may have been painted white at one time.

 

There would not be a list of engines with white straps or hinges. Those weren’t official embellishments - they were done at the initiative of individual crews or shed staff. 
 

As Flubrush says, unofficial decoration wasn’t unknown on engines from Corkerhill and Polmadie sheds working suburban services. The treatment described in this post was a bit extreme:

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/159259-what-fast-engines-would-work-for-a-branch-line/&do=findComment&comment=4169613

but I’ve seen a photo of one Polmadie Standard 4 tank with the central boss on the smokebox door painted white, and another had a pot lid (!) covering that boss. 
 

Smokebox number plates could be painted colours other than black (see that link above). I have the plate from a Stanier 5 which was withdrawn from Corkerhill. When I scraped it back to the metal, there were traces of light blue there.  However, they were under a couple of coats of black, so I think they dated back to its earlier allocation to Perth.

(Edit to add - white straps on the smokebox seem to have been the most common embellishment. I’ve found pictures of them on a 2P other than 40621, a Fairburn tank, a Standard 4 tank and a couple of Stanier 5s, including one on Royal train duty.)

 

 

Again, thank you - that’s much appreciated. It certainly does look from the image you’ve supplied that there’s traces of white paint. I’ll mask off the hinges later.

 

Such a shame that no 2Ps got saved, they’d have been the perfect size for many of the preserved lines out there 

[LMS2968]

5 minutes ago, Firecrest said:

Such a shame that no 2Ps got saved, they’d have been the perfect size for many of the preserved lines out there 

Sorry, but no, and sorry also for the thread drift. Engines with 6' 9" - and even 7ft - wheels are not a perfect size for preserved lines with a 25 mph speed limit. They just aren't designed to run for any length of time at that speed, and those big wheels don't like accelerating trains from the frequent stops preserved lines have to make.

[Firecrest]

2 hours ago, LMS2968 said:

Sorry, but no, and sorry also for the thread drift. Engines with 6' 9" - and even 7ft - wheels are not a perfect size for preserved lines with a 25 mph speed limit. They just aren't designed to run for any length of time at that speed, and those big wheels don't like accelerating trains from the frequent stops preserved lines have to make.

That’s a fair point, and I’ll bow to your superior knowledge on the subject. Personally, I’d rather have a 2P in existence with wheels not best suited to 25mph running than none at all.

[Ian Kirk]

White painted smokebox door handles and hinges, sometimes buffer heads too I always associate with an ordinary locomotive that was "bulled up" by the shed staff for working some special train. Back in the glory days of my youth there were a good number of enthusiasts specials, In Scotland worked often by one or more of the  4 owned by BR preserved locos that there were at the time : Glen Douglas, Gordon Highlander, Jones goods and the Caley Single. There was usually a "back up loco" allocated too, usually one of the 0-6-0 goods types specially cleaned by the shed staff. I recall for example a Glen Douglas tour from I think Glasgow where the Glen came off at Thornton for turning and servicing while a bulled up J37 took the train round the Fife coast line and rejoined the Glen later. I am fairly sure I have seen a photo of a 2P on an enthusiasts special with the white painted "embellishments". IIRC some of the preserved locos had these in polished steel. That would take a lot of work but a touch of white paint was quick.

 

best wishers,

 

Ian

[pH]

6 hours ago, LMS2968 said:

Sorry, but no, and sorry also for the thread drift. Engines with 6' 9" - and even 7ft - wheels are not a perfect size for preserved lines with a 25 mph speed limit. They just aren't designed to run for any length of time at that speed, and those big wheels don't like accelerating trains from the frequent stops preserved lines have to make.

(Staying off -topic) But they were used for exactly that kind of service on the ex-G&SWR lines in Scotland for many years.

[LMS2968]

Now I know the GSWR wasn't among the fastest scheduled services, but 25mph maximum with a booked stop every couple of miles?

Edited December 4, 2020 by LMS2968

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, LMS2968 said:

Now I know the GSWR wasn't among the fastest scheduled services, but 25mph maximum with a booked stop every couple of miles?

 

Faster and sparser. And those services had been worked by large wheeled 4-4-0s for many years and 2-4-0s and 0-4-2s before that. Not a tank engine line until the aberration of Whitelegg's Big Pugs.

[Wheatley]

They ran the commuter services out of St Enoch for years. 5 or 10 coach trains, all/most stations and not all that flat. 

Edited December 4, 2020 by Wheatley

[ScRSG]

Photo of 40621 probably at Hurlford, if you look closely you could possibly make out the straps had been painted, but it may just be rust flakes! Your decision! (Don't know copyright restrictions on this photo - will remove if requested)

 

[pH]

20 minutes ago, ScRSG said:

Photo of 40621 probably at Hurlford ...

Lugton. It was moved there from Corkerhill shed, along with other withdrawn engines, before going for scrap.

[pH]

3 hours ago, LMS2968 said:

Now I know the GSWR wasn't among the fastest scheduled services, but 25mph maximum with a booked stop every couple of miles?

 

The G&SWR gave up on short distance commuter traffic early on, surrendering that to the tram system around Glasgow. However, the Caledonian persevered and the LMS continued with that policy. So there was short distance commuter service on ex-GSWR lines (and joint lines) after that company itself had gone. As Wheatley says of the 2Ps:

 

50 minutes ago, Wheatley said:

They ran the commuter services out of St Enoch for years. 5 or 10 coach trains, all/most stations and not all that flat. 

 

As to stations situated close together, while they may not have been ‘every couple of miles’, look at the frequency of stations from St Enoch’s to Elderslie by either the Glasgow and Paisley Joint or the Canal line (and from there over the North Johnstone and onwards to Ayr). Further out of Glasgow, stations were quite frequent on the Ardrossan-Kilmarnock-Darvel service and between Ardrossan and Ayr.
 

 

 

[Michael Hodgson]

I'm sure I have seen photos of locos embellished as described, but I'm not convinced that these photos show anything more than the light landing a little differently on the areas concerned.  Except when specially cleaned up, the soot on the dished smokebox door would usually be  slightly rougher in texture and appear in B/W photos darker than smoother surface of the steel hinges.  However that doesn't necessarily mean there isn't also white paint showing through the muck.

 

But thank you for telling me to look for locos in my local market - I don't go there very often (only once since lockdown!) but I've never seen any there.

[Jamie]

Several 67B Hurlford crews seemed to have great pride in 'their' 2Ps, with smokebox door hinges polished or painted, or even in one case outlined in white.  Similarly the buffers.

 

Other exGSW sheds seemed less mad with the paint and polish, from a quick straw poll of my (parochial) library I don't see any Ayr or Ardrossan examples embellished in the same way. 40608, 661, 665 and 688 fall immediately to hand.

 

I have a pic of 40621 on shed at 67A in less run-down condition (can't post due to copyright) the smokebox is in shadow but it doesn't seem to have any 'decoration' at that unknown date. Could we be looking at chalk-art as with the replacement shed plate?

 

Not to rain on your parade by any means! - I have my own homage to the GSW's 2Ps in the form of 40661 c/w polished steel embellishments half-built upstairs.

 

 

[great central]

A bit of thread diversion but some depots were quite well known for their locos smokebox hinges, number and shed plates being picked out in a brighter colour. The link below shows a couple of Immingham locos, their 'proper' Mayflower and an Austerity at the other end of the scale. I've also seen pictures of their Britannias with the same embellishments.

I read somewhere that they used silver rather than or maybe as well as white.

 

http://www.davesrailpics.bravehost.com/imm/immsteam.htm

 

 

As for 2Ps with similar embellishments would this do as an example? Looks like the guard irons have had similar treatment. The RCTS archive is a superb resource.

 

https://rcts.zenfolio.com/steam-lmsr/london-midland-scottish-railway/2p-fowler-4-4-0/hA88C72FF

[Firecrest]

17 hours ago, Ian Kirk said:

White painted smokebox door handles and hinges, sometimes buffer heads too I always associate with an ordinary locomotive that was "bulled up" by the shed staff for working some special train. Back in the glory days of my youth there were a good number of enthusiasts specials, In Scotland worked often by one or more of the  4 owned by BR preserved locos that there were at the time : Glen Douglas, Gordon Highlander, Jones goods and the Caley Single. There was usually a "back up loco" allocated too, usually one of the 0-6-0 goods types specially cleaned by the shed staff. I recall for example a Glen Douglas tour from I think Glasgow where the Glen came off at Thornton for turning and servicing while a bulled up J37 took the train round the Fife coast line and rejoined the Glen later. I am fairly sure I have seen a photo of a 2P on an enthusiasts special with the white painted "embellishments". IIRC some of the preserved locos had these in polished steel. That would take a lot of work but a touch of white paint was quick.

 

best wishers,

 

Ian

 

Now that sounds like a day out in heaven Ian... all interesting stuff. Serendipitous timing too, as when I read this last night, I'd just downed tools on one of your 'Basic' wagon kits (RCH) from ages past. I have to say the use of caramac coloured plastic can be very disconcerting as I have a strong temptation to nibble at it, but it's building up nicely!

 

2 hours ago, ScRSG said:

Photo of 40621 probably at Hurlford, if you look closely you could possibly make out the straps had been painted, but it may just be rust flakes! Your decision! (Don't know copyright restrictions on this photo - will remove if requested)

 

 

This is nice, and very helpful thank you. I think I'll go with the white adornments as this is later than the first image I put up, and it does figure that any paint would have suffered and faded in the interim. This is also handy in that it shows the white edging to the number itself - a feature which I've already got.

 

1 hour ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I'm sure I have seen photos of locos embellished as described, but I'm not convinced that these photos show anything more than the light landing a little differently on the areas concerned.  Except when specially cleaned up, the soot on the dished smokebox door would usually be  slightly rougher in texture and appear in B/W photos darker than smoother surface of the steel hinges.  However that doesn't necessarily mean there isn't also white paint showing through the muck.

 

But thank you for telling me to look for locos in my local market - I don't go there very often (only once since lockdown!) but I've never seen any there.

 

Dammit! Me and my big mouth... yes, Hitchin has a rather good model railway bits and bobs stall present most Fridays. It's a bit hit and miss (pricing mainly), but you can get the occasional bargain, and certainly kits are well-priced. The 2P in question was been stripped of all identity and treated to some fascinating green and red weathering and as a final conundrum, it had been fitted with a Mainline Collett tender that had shims inserted inside to make sure it did fit! I felt a bit sorry for it, and because I have a fetish for 2Ps saved it from purgatory.

 

1 hour ago, great central said:

A bit of thread diversion but some depots were quite well known for their locos smokebox hinges, number and shed plates being picked out in a brighter colour. The link below shows a couple of Immingham locos, their 'proper' Mayflower and an Austerity at the other end of the scale. I've also seen pictures of their Britannias with the same embellishments.

I read somewhere that they used silver rather than or maybe as well as white.

 

http://www.davesrailpics.bravehost.com/imm/immsteam.htm

 

 

As for 2Ps with similar embellishments would this do as an example? Looks like the guard irons have had similar treatment. The RCTS archive is a superb resource.

 

https://rcts.zenfolio.com/steam-lmsr/london-midland-scottish-railway/2p-fowler-4-4-0/hA88C72FF

 

Thanks everyone else for the input... GC, you're right about the RCTS archive. I scrolled along a bit further and found this

https://rcts.zenfolio.com/steam-lmsr/london-midland-scottish-railway/2p-fowler-4-4-0/hA88C72FF#ha88c9383

 

Best as ever,

 

Chris

[pH]

Following Jamie’s post above, type “Hurlford 2P” into a Google image search. 3 out of the first 4 results show engines with white ‘embellishments’.

[Wheatley]

On 02/12/2020 at 16:28, Firecrest said:

 

Finally, just as a matter of interest, the body of the Mainline 2P that's being fettled and a much later Hornby version (40685) that's next in the queue seem different - I thought it was the same Airfix/Mainline/Dapol/Hornby mould? There's definite differences in the whistles, reverser and chimney for a start... has Hornby retooled it ?

Forgot this part of the question. I don't have the Mainline/Airfix version (I wanted one but my pocket money wouldn't stretch that far back in the day) but I do have both the first Hornby iteration with the awful plastic tender drive, and the first of the loco drive ones. In both cases the bodies are absolutely identical apart from the paint. However, since then the 40685 release does appear to have had a retooled taller chimney. There was some variation in the real ones, 247 and no doubt others do replacements. The tapered dome is about the only major let down on the moulding. 

[Firecrest]

28 minutes ago, Wheatley said:

Forgot this part of the question. I don't have the Mainline/Airfix version (I wanted one but my pocket money wouldn't stretch that far back in the day) but I do have both the first Hornby iteration with the awful plastic tender drive, and the first of the loco drive ones. In both cases the bodies are absolutely identical apart from the paint. However, since then the 40685 release does appear to have had a retooled taller chimney. There was some variation in the real ones, 247 and no doubt others do replacements. The tapered dome is about the only major let down on the moulding. 

 

Oddly enough these are both the ancient tender driven version. The Hornby one is 40634 (not 40685... oops!). One example is that the Mainline one has a metal chimney (with capuchon), while the Hornby has a much cheaper looking moulded version... I was just idly wondering really

 

On a different tack (but still 2P related), you may be interested by a small project I did earlier this year - taking the Triang/Hornby '2P' (L1 really) and trying to turn it into something 2P-related. Only afterwards did I realise that the lettering etc should have been straw not white... still, bearing in mind the fact that both it, and the tender, were utterly trashed when I started, I'm happy (rather my father is), with the result. Just don't look too hard... if you want to see what it was like beforehand, simply Google 2P 690 Triang for an idea... pretty much everything was replaced! I drew the line at the incorrect cab windows though... anyway, laugh as you may. At least what I'm working on now started life as a 2P!

[Firecrest]

For those who may be interested... the white trimmings were adopted  thanks once again to all who helped