Using the easy-assembly Finetrax pointwork kits in 00 and EM (and in P4 from the S4 Society)

[Gilbert]

1 minute ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

No, it's the P4 lot who look down their noses at EM modellers. 

And they in turn look down their noses at OO modellers.

Or to quote Ronnie Corbett, "I know my place".

That's me stuffed then....

[AndyID]

3 hours ago, Ian_H said:

Just my just my tuppenceworth, and I haven’t built jack yet! I’ve been considering 00-SF for sometime but now I’m finding myself to be attracted to EM for the improved look from the wider gauge. However, there is a problem in committing to EM gauge and that is the time it will take to modify the RTR locos and stock that I have collected, to say nothing about the cost and complexity of the conversions. I’ve just looked up (searched) the conversion of Bachmann 4TC to EM Gauge ... seems rather extensive, not just pulling the wheels out, and also the cost of an Ultrascale wheel set for the Bachmann class 08 Diesel Shunter … Ouch! EM looks nice but so too does 00-SF which is what I think the majority of modellers will probably stick with, including myself ….. when I eventually pull my finger out!

 

Ian

 

Hi Ian,

 

One advantage with 00-SF is that your stock will be able to negotiate 00 radius curves. You might lose some of that ability with EM. That might not be an issue with your layout but it's something to bear in mind.

 

Andy

[AndyID]

1 hour ago, Gilbert said:

That's me stuffed then....

 I dunno. The sleeper size and spacing looks more 00 than HO and I really like the built-in ballast.

[Chuffer Davies]

3 hours ago, Leander said:

I don't think that the EMGS is going to rewite the standards any time soon but there is absolutely nothing to stop an individual modeller from tweaking back-to-backs or slightly altering clearances through check rails, to allow R-T-R wheels to be pulled out and used to model in EM gauge. Plenty of people out there do just that. The Hornby Britannia wheel is by far the best representation of the type and can easily be used for EM, as Tim Easter has done here.

A slight word of caution with regards reuse of commercial wheel sets in EM. Their wider profile can cause additional clearance challenges between the splashers and behind slide bars, problems that are reduced when using the slightly narrower Gibson or Ultrascale wheels.  Markit wheels are also available but are of similar thickness to commercial wheels from Hornby etc.

Frank

[NFWEM57]

3 hours ago, Leander said:

I don't think that the EMGS is going to rewite the standards any time soon but there is absolutely nothing to stop an individual modeller from tweaking back-to-backs or slightly altering the gauge, to allow R-T-R wheels to be pulled out and used to model in EM gauge. Plenty of pople out there do just that. The Hornby Britannia wheel is by far the best representation of the type and can easily be used for EM, as Tim Easter has done here.

Thank you, yes we could have too many standards and I have been wondering about using the wheels and motion gear on the more modern stock.  I think the older models are a no-go but the latest ones such as Dapol's Mogul, who knows.

[NFWEM57]

1 minute ago, Chuffer Davies said:

A slight word of caution with regards reuse of commercial wheel sets in EM. Their wider profile can cause additional clearance challenges between the splashers and behind slide bars, problems that are reduced when using the slightly narrower Gibson or Ultrascale wheels.  Markit wheels are also available but are of similar thickness to commercial wheels from Hornby etc.

Frank

Yes, I think i am looking at a way to use the existing motion gear with AG wheels, save a lot of hassle.  I'll give it a go with a newish West Country I have for which I have already bought the wheels (and motion set).

 

We have the easy build track, we now need easy(ish) conversions for those venturing into the EM arena.

[Enterprisingwestern]

1 hour ago, Chuffer Davies said:

A slight word of caution with regards reuse of commercial wheel sets in EM. Their wider profile can cause additional clearance challenges between the splashers and behind slide bars, problems that are reduced when using the slightly narrower Gibson or Ultrascale wheels.  Markit wheels are also available but are of similar thickness to commercial wheels from Hornby etc.

Frank

 

1 hour ago, NFWEM57 said:

Yes, I think i am looking at a way to use the existing motion gear with AG wheels, save a lot of hassle.  I'll give it a go with a newish West Country I have for which I have already bought the wheels (and motion set).

 

We have the easy build track, we now need easy(ish) conversions for those venturing into the EM arena.

 

Those of a delicate nature avert your gaze now.

If you haven't got a lathe, then carefully rubbing the front and back of (some, not necessarily all) commercial RTR wheels on quality oxide or wet and dry abrasive paper will reduce the profiles adequately enough to allow successful transition through pointwork to EMGS standards, and allow conversion of stock at a more economical cost.

Purchasing new wheels is not always a necessity or requirement.

 

Mike.

[NFWEM57]

30 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

 

Those of a delicate nature avert your gaze now.

If you haven't got a lathe, then carefully rubbing the front and back of (some, not necessarily all) commercial RTR wheels on quality oxide or wet and dry abrasive paper will reduce the profiles adequately enough to allow successful transition through pointwork to EMGS standards, and allow conversion of stock at a more economical cost.

Purchasing new wheels is not always a necessity or requirement.

 

Mike.

I see that wet & dry shares just went up..!  

[martin_wynne]

2 hours ago, AndyID said:

One advantage with 00-SF is that your stock will be able to negotiate 00 radius curves. You might lose some of that ability with EM. That might not be an issue with your layout but it's something to bear in mind.

 

Hi Andy,

 

??? The radius limits for 00-SF and EM are exactly the same, assuming the same wheels set at 14.4mm and 16.4mm back-to-back respectively. You can't use 00-SF for "train-set" curves.

 

(And assuming the same axle side-play is available on 6-wheeled vehicles.)

 

I keep telling folks that 00-SF is a variant of EM, not of 00, but it takes a bit of sinking in.

 

Martin.

[martin_wynne]

36 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

If you haven't got a lathe, then carefully rubbing the front and back of (some, not necessarily all) commercial RTR wheels on quality oxide or wet and dry abrasive paper will reduce the profiles adequately enough to allow successful transition through pointwork to EMGS standards, and allow conversion of stock at a more economical cost.

Purchasing new wheels is not always a necessity or requirement.

 

Hi Mike,

 

There shouldn't be any need for that. Modern RTR wheels to the NMRA RP25/110 profile have flanges 0.8mm thick. They will easily run through EM and 00-SF flangeways which are 1.0mm wide. The trick is to reduce the back-to-back accordingly -- 16.4mm for RTR wheels on EM. Don't use the standard EM 16.5mm back-to-back gauge on RTR wheels.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[Wayne Kinney]

7 minutes ago, martin_wynne said:

 

??? The radius limits for 00-SF and EM are exactly the same, assuming the same wheels set at 14.4mm and 16.4mm back-to-back respectively. You can't use 00-SF for "train-set" curves.

 

 

Maybe he means on 16.5mm flexi track, as appose to the 16.2mm turnouts?

Edited February 21, 2021 by Wayne Kinney

[AndyID]

8 minutes ago, Wayne Kinney said:

 

Maybe he means on 16.5mm flexi track, as appose to the 16.2mm turnouts?

 

Precisely 

 

(Although I prefer to call it gauge widened 00-SF track for trainset curves.)

 

[martin_wynne]

2 minutes ago, Wayne Kinney said:

 

Maybe he means on 16.5mm flexi track, as opposed to the 16.2mm turnouts?

 

Hi Wayne,

 

Yes maybe. That in effect means applying 0.3mm gauge-widening in 00-SF terms. You could do exactly the same in EM by building gauge-widened 18.5mm track. With sufficient gauge-widening you can get anything around any radius.

 

But your 00-SF turnouts don't change gauge when curved, so the limits still apply through pointwork. For short or sharply curved turnouts it would be better to use your Standard 00 kits. They can be mixed together with 00-SF on the same layout.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[hayfield]

11 minutes ago, Wayne Kinney said:

 

Maybe he means on 16.5mm flexi track, as appose to the 16.2mm turnouts?

 

That's how I read it, 00 stock can be used with a smaller radii than EM gauge stock

[Wayne Kinney]

I guess the sharper 'trainset' curves would mostly be needed in the unseen ends of the layout where it curves back into the fiddle yard, not the scenic side where the OO-SF turnouts would be visible.

 

Certainly true that EM can still use the same 0.3mm gauge widening, so same difference 

[martin_wynne]

1 minute ago, hayfield said:

That's how I read it, 00 stock can be used with a smaller radii than EM gauge stock

 

Hi John,

 

Not if you are talking about Wayne's 00-SF and EM turnouts. The radius limits are exactly the same for both. To use smaller radii in 00, use the Standard 00 turnouts.

 

A lot of new users are going to be coming to these kits direct from the Peco catalogue. There is going to be some disappointment if they try to use the 00-SF kits as drop-in replacements in Peco-style layouts. Wayne wants happy customers, so let's not oversell the 00-SF option. I already suggested using 9ft-5 instead of A-5 to keep the radius easier.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[Gilbert]

1 minute ago, martin_wynne said:

 

Hi John,

 

Not if you are talking about Wayne's 00-SF and EM turnouts. The radius limits are exactly the same for both. To use smaller radii in 00, use the Standard 00 turnouts.

 

A lot of new users are going to be coming to these kits direct from the Peco catalogue. There is going to be some disappointment if they try to use the 00-SF kits as drop-in replacements in Peco-style layouts. Wayne wants happy customers, so let's not oversell the 00-SF option. I already suggested using 9ft-5 instead of A-5 to keep the radius easier.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

I'll be happy with standard 00 - as will many I expect.

Chris

[Enterprisingwestern]

11 hours ago, martin_wynne said:

 

Hi Mike,

 

There shouldn't be any need for that. Modern RTR wheels to the NMRA RP25/110 profile have flanges 0.8mm thick. They will easily run through EM and 00-SF flangeways which are 1.0mm wide. The trick is to reduce the back-to-back accordingly -- 16.4mm for RTR wheels on EM. Don't use the standard EM 16.5mm back-to-back gauge on RTR wheels.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

 

In a non argumentative way, as I have no wish to start a gauge war, and fully respect your unparalleled knowledge of trackwork and standards, but I'm basing my observations on some 50 years of EM bodging.

I agree with your comments Martin, but you fall at the first fence, RTR wheels are not always exactly to RP25/110 profile, (bearing in mind that manufacturers can't get a supposedly "standard" coupling pocket height right, so what chance of wheels?), and RP25/88 is closer to an EM profile wheel anyway, which is what I believe Accurascale are now using.

A case in point is the new Hornby RB buffet coach, the wheels of which have flanges which are far too deep and catch on "finescale" track when pulled out to EM B-B settings, so re-wheel is required, funnily enough with previous Hornby coach wheels in my case!

Also, saying "back to back" dimensions is a bit of a misnomer, it's actually, I believe, but stand to be corrected, the measurement from the root radius of one wheel to the wheel back of the other which is the critical one, although it's arguably a negligible difference in the smaller scales although it could be why some modellers use EM profile wheels on P4 track to obtain better running.

Another advantage of thinning down RTR wheels, which technically is thread drift, is that with thinner wheels less hacking away of unergubbins such as axleguards, brakegear, inner frames etc needs to be done to get the wheels in.

But to return to subject, whatever the opinions on wheels or gauges, these kits are a sea change for everyone and deserve to be well supported, I look forward to the next new years honours list, Sir Wayne Kinney and Lord Martin Wynne have a certain ring to them!

 

Mike.

[martin_wynne]

19 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

I agree with your comments Martin, but you fall at the first fence, RTR wheels are not always exactly to RP25/110 profile

 

Hi Mike,

 

No, they're not. But all are made in the same Far East factories, so similar to each other if not to the actual standard.

 

But the main point of my post is that when RTR wheels are set to 16.4mm back-to-back for EM, you get exactly the same track clearances and tolerances as for the same wheels on 00-SF.

 

Lots of folks are now successfully using 00-SF with unmodified out-of-the-box modern RTR models, without any need for re-profiling of wheels. Just occasional checking of back-to-backs. See for example:

 

 

Perhaps I need to keep stressing that we are talking about "modern" RTR models.

 

Folks with "50 years of EM bodging" are likely to have lots of cherished older models with much coarser wheels. There are two different hobbies here -- many reading this have not tried to fit Hamblings wheels inside white-metal splashers.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[hayfield]

12 hours ago, martin_wynne said:

 

Hi John,

 

Not if you are talking about Wayne's 00-SF and EM turnouts. The radius limits are exactly the same for both. To use smaller radii in 00, use the Standard 00 turnouts.

 

A lot of new users are going to be coming to these kits direct from the Peco catalogue. There is going to be some disappointment if they try to use the 00-SF kits as drop-in replacements in Peco-style layouts. Wayne wants happy customers, so let's not oversell the 00-SF option. I already suggested using 9ft-5 instead of A-5 to keep the radius easier.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

 

Martin

 

I again did not explain myself clearly enough.

 

I took the statement not to be about the turnouts but the radius of plain tracks where EM gauge needs a larger radii than 00. Off stage curves being an example!!

[martin_wynne]

13 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

Martin

 

I again did not explain myself clearly enough.

 

I took the statement not to be about the turnouts but the radius of plain tracks where EM gauge needs a larger radii than 00. Off stage curves being an example!!

 

Hi John,

 

Are we having an argument?

 

I think perhaps we should all stop writing 00 and say specifically whether we mean Standard 00 (16.5mm gauge) or 00-SF (16.2mm gauge). Wayne is producing kits for both, so just ordering "00" is going to lead to some mix-ups.

 

Also, let's not assume that there will never be a 16.2mm flexi-track. All that transitioning to-and-fro between 16.2mm and 16.5mm is surely just a temporary bodge? Have a word with Phil at C&L -- there's a market niche there waiting for someone.

 

So yes, EM gauge needs larger radii than Standard 00. But not larger than 00-SF, they are both the same for radii and gauge-widening where needed.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[gordon s]

2 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

A case in point is the new Hornby RB buffet coach, the wheels of which have flanges which are far too deep and catch on "finescale" track when pulled out to EM B-B settings, so re-wheel is required, funnily enough with previous Hornby coach wheels in my case!

 

Mike.

 

Hi Mike, really surprised about your comment on the RB wheels, so of course I had to open one of the ones I had still in it's box....

 

All my turnouts are built using 00-sf gauges and 1mm flange way gaps. Of course this isn't conclusive and apologies for the video, but it's hard to do everything on your own.

 

Straight from the box, this has to be the best running coach I have ever seen. The slightest gradient off level and it's gone.  Anyway, a gentle push from me and the coach ran through a selection of turnouts perfectly, so personally I can't see an issue with the wheels at all. Again, this was straight from the box, so B2B's weren't checked or adjusted.

 

I'm not disputing what you say, so perhaps it's a difference between 00-sf and EM? 

 

Edit: Forget that as Martin has already indicated there is no difference other than the 2mm in gauge width.

 

 

Edited February 22, 2021 by gordon s

[hayfield]

1 minute ago, martin_wynne said:

 

Hi John,

 

Are we having an argument?

 

Also, let's not assume that there will never be a 16.2mm flexi-track. All that transitioning to-and-fro between 16.2mm and 16.5mm is surely just a temporary bodge? Have a word with Phil at C&L -- there's a market niche there waiting for someone.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

 

Martin

 

If we did have an argument I could not think of a more gentlemanly person to have one with, but I think we are both on the same track

 

As for Phil and C&L its a long lasting project to get him to realise its in the companies interest to be a bit more precise. The 7mm boys got him to realise quoting the correct code for 7mm rail was beneficial and there are some interesting projects coming to fruition, so keep your eyes pealed 

 

Also unlike other businesses rather than diverging away from the main product area Phil is wanting to increase it, however it will be a gradual process and modern tooling practices do open up additional possibilities 

[hayfield]

7 minutes ago, gordon s said:

 

Hi Mike, really surprised about your comment on the RB wheels, so of course I had to open one of the ones I had still in it's box....

 

All my turnouts are built using 00-sf gauges and 1mm flange way gaps. Of course this isn't conclusive and apologies for the video, but it's hard to do everything on your own.

 

Straight from the box, this has to be the best running coach I have ever seen. The slightest gradient off level and it's gone.  Anyway, a gentle push from me and the coach ran perfectly through a selection of turnouts perfectly, so personally I can't see an issue with the wheels at all.

 

I'm not disputing what you say, so perhaps it's a difference between 00-sf and EM?

 

 

 

A lovely piece of workmanship, but its something we have learnt to expect from you

[martin_wynne]

39 minutes ago, gordon s said:

really surprised about your comment on the RB wheels

 

Hi Gordon,

 

i think Mike was referring to the flange depth catching on the chairs. This is/was a known problem with older C&L EM gauge flexi-track -- they've been doing some re-tooling so maybe it is now fixed.

 

You are using Scaleway, so not comparable. Also as far as I know the C&L 00 flexi is ok, the problem is with the EM flexi.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.