Pre-Grouping Coaching Stock

[woko]

36 minutes ago, BlueLightning said:

Very nice Rob! When can I have some?

 

Gary

Thanks Gary as always chap  Hoping to start rattling some out in the summer all being well, along with all the other stuff! I would like to say a big thanks to Linny for helping with the drawings and details and Guy, for his excellent knowledge. I will go back and do a pass on the panelling on these to ensure consistency in terms of depth. 

Now i need to decide whether to jump on some LSWR or LCDR carriages  

 

[Guy Rixon]

Re SE(C)R PBV: I didn't find my copy of Gould, nor did I find the instructions from the Branchlines kit of this vehicle which have historical notes. I did find the errata to those instructions, which confirms some details between batches.

SECR-32ft-PBV-errata.pdf

 

The drawing and photo in the Harris book on NPCS confirm oil lamps for the early batch built by the SECR. The builder's photo also shows the SER pattern of axleboxes, like the render I posted earlier in this thread. There's a drawing on HMRS that shows no lamp tops (implying electric lights) and the later, squarer form of axleboxes favoured by the SECR. Therefore one should be careful in choosing numbers. 

 

PS: found my Gould! Combining Mr. Gould's notes with the Branchlines errata, it seems that the SER 6-wheeled, 32' PBVs all had arc roofs. The SER design carried over to the SECR was the one with side lookouts at each end and no roof observatory.

 

Mr. Gould states that 32' PBVs with roof observatories were build by Cravens for the SECR in 1901 and 1902, SECR numbers 588-605, to drawing number 1542. All were dual-braked and electrically lit. He goes on to say "In March 1903 ten were ordered from ... Hurst Nelson ... delivered between July and September 1903 and numbered 681-690." There's a picture of number 682 in Harris, and it definitely has oil lamps and lacks Westinghouse hoses.

 

Mr. Gould also lists 20 vans built by Cravens and 20 by Metropolitan RC&W in 1905 to body drawing 1542A (note change of drawing number from early batch; what changed?) and had wooden underframes with flitched solebars.

 

Finally, the SECR built some themselves: five in 1905 and 22 between 1907 and 1909. The latter series are thought to be the ones with different arrangements of side lookouts and guards doors.

 

TLDR: Woko, your CAD looks good in all visible details for the Hurst-Nelson series nos 681-690, but probably not quite right for all the others.

Edited April 3, 2021 by Guy Rixon

[Guy Rixon]

From Gould, some details of the 6-wheeled , elliptical-roofed, 3rd-brakes. They are almost certainly nos. 461-495 of 1896 and 1897, since every other 6-wheeled brake of the SER had a single-arc roof.

 

The SER built the first 15 in 1896 and Oldbury RC&W built the rest in 1897. The Ashford batch had steel underframes (Foxes patent pressed-steel) and this may affect the appearance of the headstocks. Mr. Gould says "the Oldbury batch was generally similar", which is worryingly vague.

 

Nos. 461 and 462 later became slip coaches, the latter by 1901 and the former by 1908. No. 461 was altered to have lavatories, replacing one compartment, but these were removed in 1911. Nos. 465 and 488 were alerted to 2nd/3rd composite brakes in 1911. Nos. 465, 470, 473, 475, 481, 486, 488 and 494 were changed to electric light (from gas, presumably) "at various dates between 1897 and 1920".

 

No photos of these coaches in Gould. There is a distant photo of one of the earlier, arc-roof kind.

 

PS: having posted the above, I open up my unbuilt, Branchlines kit for one of these coaches and find that it comes with a side of uncertainty.

 

"...but two of the three G.A.'s available show, in one case (962) a wooden underframe, lamp brackets on the guard's end and a birdcage 8' 5 3/8" long whereas in another drawing (973) shows a steel underframe, fixed gas tail lamps and a birdcage only 5' 3" long. Both have the later, Wainwright style of panelling. With no information to tie one form to a number series one can only presume that the older batch had the older features and the later batch the modern ones, although it is significant that the 1897 4-wheelers had wooden underframes and fixed gas tail lamps; obviously a transition period!"

 

So the CAD is going to have to adapt to match its birdcage length I guess.

 

Note also that the lower footboards may have been shortened in later years from the full-length as in the current CAD. They would have been cut back to run just under the guard's door

 

,,,and if you think that's a PITA to get right, the arc-roof brake-3rds are even more uncertain.

Edited April 3, 2021 by Guy Rixon

[woko]

On 03/04/2021 at 15:13, Guy Rixon said:

Re SE(C)R PBV: I didn't find my copy of Gould, nor did I find the instructions from the Branchlines kit of this vehicle which have historical notes. I did find the errata to those instructions, which confirms some details between batches.

 

The drawing and photo in the Harris book on NPCS confirm oil lamps for the early batch built by the SECR. The builder's photo also shows the SER pattern of axleboxes, like the render I posted earlier in this thread. There's a drawing on HMRS that shows no lamp tops (implying electric lights) and the later, squarer form of axleboxes favoured by the SECR. Therefore one should be careful in choosing numbers. 

 

PS: found my Gould! Combining Mr. Gould's notes with the Branchlines errata, it seems that the SER 6-wheeled, 32' PBVs all had arc roofs. The SER design carried over to the SECR was the one with side lookouts at each end and no roof observatory.

 

Mr. Gould states that 32' PBVs with roof observatories were build by Cravens for the SECR in 1901 and 1902, SECR numbers 588-605, to drawing number 1542. All were dual-braked and electrically lit. He goes on to say "In March 1903 ten were ordered from ... Hurst Nelson ... delivered between July and September 1903 and numbered 681-690." There's a picture of number 682 in Harris, and it definitely has oil lamps and lacks Westinghouse hoses.

 

Mr. Gould also lists 20 vans built by Cravens and 20 by Metropolitan RC&W in 1905 to body drawing 1542A (note change of drawing number from early batch; what changed?) and had wooden underframes with flitched solebars.

 

Finally, the SECR built some themselves: five in 1905 and 22 between 1907 and 1909. The latter series are thought to be the ones with different arrangements of side lookouts and guards doors.

 

TLDR: Woko, your CAD looks good in all visible details for the Hurst-Nelson series nos 681-690, but probably not quite right for all the others.

 

Thanks Guy this is fantastic sir, a lot of information here that I am picking through still being a novice to the SECR stock at the moment, so this is most appreciated. I have knocked up the Arc roof PBV tonight, I found a great photograph of a PBV damaged at the St Johns 1898 train crash. Shows a lot more detail on these older style Vans. 

 

 

So from this im assuming that the later elliptical roog later vans where devoid of such roof details? 

 

 

[Guy Rixon]

Roof details on electrically-lit vans: very unclear. The only drawing I found on on HMRS doesn't show any such, but I suspect that there were still vents at least. The 27' coaches of this period apparently had external conduits, of rectangular section, for the lighting wiring.

 

On the 27' coaches, there was allegedly one conduit down each side of the centreline alongside the lamps, then a diagonal conduit to the end of the roof, below which the wiring ran down the end to the switch-box, and then down again below the switch to the headstock. I'm not sure why there were wires each side of the lamps, but I think it was to do with only having half of them switched on during the daytime: two separate feeds from the switch, the latter being the off/half/full kind.

 

For the early-style switch-box and end wiring, see my thread about 27' coaches on the S4 forum, William Barter posted a useful photo part-way down page 1. The later style of switch-box had a little roof over it, possibly to keep the rain out.

 

It's not clear to me that a PBV would have had an external switch. I'd expect the switch to be in the guards compartment. But I have no evidence either way.

 

I would guess that the 32' PBVs with end lookouts had similar fittings to these centre-observatory kinds, and one of those is preserved. Maybe we can find a photo of its roof.

 

PS: arc-roof PBV very nice indeed and I'd like a print when you're ready to sell them. I already have one of the elliptical-roof kind.

Edited April 5, 2021 by Guy Rixon

[woko]

53 minutes ago, Guy Rixon said:

Roof details on electrically-lit vans: very unclear. The only drawing I found on on HMRS doesn't show any such, but I suspect that there were still vents at least. The 27' coaches of this period apparently had external conduits, of rectangular section, for the lighting wiring.

 

On the 27' coaches, there was allegedly one conduit down each side of the centreline alongside the lamps, then a diagonal conduit to the end of the roof, below which the wiring ran down the end to the switch-box, and then down again below the switch to the headstock. I'm not sure why there were wires each side of the lamps, but I think it was to do with only having half of them switched on during the daytime: two separate feeds from the switch, the latter being the off/half/full kind.

 

For the early-style switch-box and end wiring, see my thread about 27' coaches on the S4 forum, William Barter posted a useful photo part-way down page 1. The later style of switch-box had a little roof over it, possibly to keep the rain out.

 

It's not clear to me that a PBV would have had an external switch. I'd expect the switch to be in the guards compartment. But I have no evidence either way.

53 minutes ago, Guy Rixon said:

Roof details on electrically-lit vans: very unclear. The only drawing I found on on HMRS doesn't show any such, but I suspect that there were still vents at least. The 27' coaches of this period apparently had external conduits, of rectangular section, for the lighting wiring.

 

On the 27' coaches, there was allegedly one conduit down each side of the centreline alongside the lamps, then a diagonal conduit to the end of the roof, below which the wiring ran down the end to the switch-box, and then down again below the switch to the headstock. I'm not sure why there were wires each side of the lamps, but I think it was to do with only having half of them switched on during the daytime: two separate feeds from the switch, the latter being the off/half/full kind.

 

For the early-style switch-box and end wiring, see my thread about 27' coaches on the S4 forum, William Barter posted a useful photo part-way down page 1. The later style of switch-box had a little roof over it, possibly to keep the rain out.

 

It's not clear to me that a PBV would have had an external switch. I'd expect the switch to be in the guards compartment. But I have no evidence either way.

 

I would guess that the 32' PBVs with end lookouts had similar fittings to these centre-observatory kinds, and one of those is preserved. Maybe we can find a photo of its roof.

 

PS: arc-roof PBV very nice indeed and I'd like a print when you're ready to sell them. I already have one of the elliptical-roof kind.

 

I would guess that the 32' PBVs with end lookouts had similar

 

PS: arc-roof PBV very nice indeed and I'd like a print when you're ready to sell them. I already have one of the elliptical-roof kind.

 

Thanks Guy, the link to the 27 foot coaches is particularly useful, and very nice work indeed.

I will add these details in to my models, and of course you will be first on the list for the PBV  

[woko]

More southern 6 wheelers this time LSWR, and a big thanks to @Skinnylinny who helped me so much with getting the details right on these, and providing fountains of reference ta very muchly  

 

Brake Third, First, Third and Full brake here, I may do some more variations later on 

 

[woko]

Just adding some GER 4 wheelers to the collection, hoping to do some test prints in 7mm to go with my GER Buckjumper I am currently working up for the club layout.

 

 

 

[woko]

Ok finally I have had a go at trying to print some of these coaches in 7mm its a first attempt, and I need some cleaning up to do, and had a wee bit of warping on this so a few more supports on the next print run should hopefully fix this, along with some extra detailing inside, looking at working up the seats, and adding luggage shelfs above the seats. The roof is currently placed on so will need to be fixed down at some point. Oh and I managed to drop this which was not the best thing I have ever done, so a few bits on the underframe sadly flew off never to be seen again!!

 

 

But looking forward to trying out some of the infamous Mike Trice Teaking effects which look fantastic so if I can get half as good as Mike gets his coaches then I will be a very happy chappy indeed. 

 

[brossard]

These look simply marvellous, that is some great work you have done.  I've been working on 4 and 6 wheeled NBR coaches for a friend.  These are etched brass kits from 62C.  Two are built and waiting for me to shift myself to get the interiors done.  There's a third on the "to do" shelf.

 

Wonderful to see modelling is still alive and well.

 

John

[woko]

47 minutes ago, brossard said:

These look simply marvellous, that is some great work you have done.  I've been working on 4 and 6 wheeled NBR coaches for a friend.  These are etched brass kits from 62C.  Two are built and waiting for me to shift myself to get the interiors done.  There's a third on the "to do" shelf.

 

Wonderful to see modelling is still alive and well.

 

John

Thanks John for the kind words, I have to admit I am enjoying building these especially in 7mm.

I would be keen to see your 4 and 6 wheeled NBR coaches, I would love to get round to making some NBR stock soon also, its just getting hold of the drawings which is the only issue for a lot of these models. I have started modelling a 6 wheeled GER Clerestory which I am keen to print and paint up.

 

Cheers

 

Rob

[brossard]

Thanks Rob, I made a thread on my 62C builds:

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/159681-62c-models-nbr-coaches-now-with-transfers-on/

 

The kits are enjoyable to build and very well designed.  During the course of the build, I encountered issues that were answered promptly by NBR906 (Ian) from 62C.  Other RMweb members chipped in with advice too as usual.

 

I'll send you a PM with some things that may help.

 

John

[thegreenhowards]

7 hours ago, woko said:

Ok finally I have had a go at trying to print some of these coaches in 7mm its a first attempt, and I need some cleaning up to do, and had a wee bit of warping on this so a few more supports on the next print run should hopefully fix this, along with some extra detailing inside, looking at working up the seats, and adding luggage shelfs above the seats. The roof is currently placed on so will need to be fixed down at some point. Oh and I managed to drop this which was not the best thing I have ever done, so a few bits on the underframe sadly flew off never to be seen again!!

 

 

But looking forward to trying out some of the infamous Mike Trice Teaking effects which look fantastic so if I can get half as good as Mike gets his coaches then I will be a very happy chappy indeed. 

 

They look great Rob. I didn’t pay enough attention to the one you brought along last night as I was stressing about why my stock was misbehaving! But it’s a great start if what I hope will be many 7mm prints. Can’t wait for the GNR ones to give my C12 something prototypical to haul.

[woko]

39 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

They look great Rob. I didn’t pay enough attention to the one you brought along last night as I was stressing about why my stock was misbehaving! But it’s a great start if what I hope will be many 7mm prints. Can’t wait for the GNR ones to give my C12 something prototypical to haul.

Absolutely no worries Andy, I could tell you where busy chap.

You have quite an impressive collection of stock now for the O gauge, some lovely stuff spurring me on to get building mine up! 

And yes looking forward to making those 6 wheeled Howldens and Billintons for the club layout. 

 

 

[woko]

Working up some GER Clerestory 6 wheeled coaches to print in 7mm

 

[thegreenhowards]

I love the look of those Rob. Will these be for the new printer? 
 

As I’ve said before some of the detail looks very fragile (for a clumsy oaf like me!). How robust will this lower running/ foot boards be?

 

Andy

[woko]

8 hours ago, thegreenhowards said:

I love the look of those Rob. Will these be for the new printer? 
 

As I’ve said before some of the detail looks very fragile (for a clumsy oaf like me!). How robust will this lower running/ foot boards be?

 

Andy

Thanks Andy, yes all being well if the damn thing arrives

Good question about the running boards they are pretty robust until you drop one of them like I have, then not so much!!  

I think the ones I did on the 4 wheelers where a bit too chunky so have actually thinned them out a bit, as I had done on the Stroudley Goods brake which have been fine so far.

 

[woko]

Adding to GER 6 wheeled coaching stock whilst this cold weather puts the kibosh on my 3d printing endeavours! 

 

[woko]

Work in progress on my 3d printed GER 4 wheel coaches in 7mm, Still testing out teaking techniques, i need to weather the roofs, and barge boards/wheels etc 

I also need to find GER 7mm Decals for these coaches not sure they are available? I know @ianmaccormac made some for the 4mm versions I believe?

 

Edited December 8, 2021 by woko

[thegreenhowards]

Are these what you need?

 

https://www.fox-transfers.co.uk/transfers/ger-great-eastern-railway-loco-crests-76188
 

 

[woko]

On 09/12/2021 at 22:47, thegreenhowards said:

Are these what you need?

 

https://www.fox-transfers.co.uk/transfers/ger-great-eastern-railway-loco-crests-76188
 

 

Badges I will need yes, but it is the GE lettering, and numbering as well. Plus the cost of these transfers for what you actually get seems very cheeky, 2 pairs for nearly 9 squid at 7mm, i'm wondering if it be easier to make my own after seeing Ian's excellent work

[thegreenhowards]

9 minutes ago, woko said:

Badges I will need yes, but it is the GE lettering, and numbering as well. Plus the cost of these transfers for what you actually get seems very cheeky, 2 pairs for nearly 9 squid at 7mm, i'm wondering if it be easier to make my own after seeing Ian's excellent work

Could you use LNER numbering? I can provide some if you want to try. I agree on the cost point, you could end up paying more for the decals than the basic body! I’m afraid it’s the combination of low volume, complicated artwork and a lack of competition.

[woko]

1 hour ago, thegreenhowards said:

Could you use LNER numbering? I can provide some if you want to try. I agree on the cost point, you could end up paying more for the decals than the basic body! I’m afraid it’s the combination of low volume, complicated artwork and a lack of competition.

I'm sure LNER numbering would be fine, but at the amount of coaches and wagons I would like to produce at 7mm scale it soon becomes very pricey, I want to print 5-6 of these GE 4 wheelers, several of the GER 6 wheelers, including the clerestories, then there are the Howldens for the GNR, plus im hoping to model up some CLC, and LD&ECR 4-6 wheelers for the GCR, not to mention all the Southern pre-grouping stock I would also like to make up, so after all this little lot It may well be worth investing in a way to produce my own waterslides!

[Timber]

these are amazing - what CAD package are you using?

[woko]

On 18/12/2021 at 14:52, Timber said:

these are amazing - what CAD package are you using?

Thanks Timber i'm modelling this stuff in 3DS Max as I have been using it for years, but any CAD package will get you the same results chap, its all about having good reference photos, and solid drawings I find