Points - Open/Closed?

[Newbie2020]

Might sound like a silly question (I'm learning a lot but still a rookie!) but when are points open or closed? I'm guessing that "thrown" and "open" are the same? Am I correct in saying that an open (or thrown) point is when the train is taking the the branch and that closed meeans that the train will travel straight through the points?

 

Rgds

 

Confused of Bedworth!

[meil]

2 minutes ago, Newbie2020 said:

Might sound like a silly question (I'm learning a lot but still a rookie!) but when are points open or closed? I'm guessing that "thrown" and "open" are the same? Am I correct in saying that an open (or thrown) point is when the train is taking the the branch and that closed meeans that the train will travel straight through the points?

 

Rgds

 

Confused of Bedworth!

Points are Normal or Reversed. Normal usually sets the usual or main route, Reversed the diversionary route.

[iands]

"Open" and "Closed" usually refers the the "switches" - e.g. RH (righthand) switch open/LH switch closed or vice versa, depending which way the "points" are laid.

 

Edit: "points are laid" = Normal or Reverse, as "meil" points out.

Edited December 4, 2020 by iands
Clarification.

[Edwin_m]

Operationally speaking, open and closed is mainly North American parlance, with "closed" being for the main line, usually straight through as mentioned.  "Open" means setting for the "siding", which is usually what we would refer to as a "loop".  "Leaving the switch open" was a common cause of accidents on the less automated lines (still a few about) where they were operated by train crews.  

[Trog]

3 hours ago, meil said:

Points are Normal or Reversed. Normal usually sets the usual or main route, Reversed the diversionary route.

 

I believe that the little plates with the point number on them are usually positioned in the 4' near to the switch toe that is closed when the point is set normal.

[peanuts]

just to confuse the issue some points would be set to take the diverging route when set normal eg lever in the frame example of this is at edgely jn no1 on the up slow the points when set normal are set for the Buxton line and have to be reversed (lever out of frame ) to be set for the "main" route towards crewe 

[LMS2968]

The only instances I can think of are trap and catch points open or closed, and the meaning there is pretty clear.

[Oldddudders]

11 hours ago, peanuts said:

just to confuse the issue some points would be set to take the diverging route when set normal eg lever in the frame example of this is at edgely jn no1 on the up slow the points when set normal are set for the Buxton line and have to be reversed (lever out of frame ) to be set for the "main" route towards crewe 

I think that is a sort of flank protection. Any train running by will be sent round the corner, avoiding a service coming off the branch. 

[ikcdab]

12 hours ago, peanuts said:

just to confuse the issue some points would be set to take the diverging route when set normal eg lever in the frame example of this is at edgely jn no1 on the up slow the points when set normal are set for the Buxton line and have to be reversed (lever out of frame ) to be set for the "main" route towards crewe 

Castle Cary was another one like this. Originally an "ordinary" through station on the Westbury to Weymouth line. In 1905 it became a junction with the opening of the new cut off to Taunton which rapidly became the main line. However, the signalbox always referred to the Weymouth line as the "main" right up until closure of the box in 1983. So at this box, the branch was the main line.

I was a heritage railway signalman for 30 years. Points were always referred to as normal or reversed, it was only catch points that we called open or closed.

Ian

[jim.snowdon]

13 hours ago, peanuts said:

just to confuse the issue some points would be set to take the diverging route when set normal eg lever in the frame example of this is at edgely jn no1 on the up slow the points when set normal are set for the Buxton line and have to be reversed (lever out of frame ) to be set for the "main" route towards crewe 

A similar practice was common on the Southern Railway/Region for the simple reason that it reduced the number of lever movements that had to be made when setting routes through double junctions, particularly those with a high number of trains using each route, as could be comon in the London area. With the 'up' and 'down' points set normal in opposing directions, only one of them needed to be moved for any movement.

 

Jim

[WillCav]

13 hours ago, peanuts said:

just to confuse the issue some points would be set to take the diverging route when set normal eg lever in the frame example of this is at edgely jn no1 on the up slow the points when set normal are set for the Buxton line and have to be reversed (lever out of frame ) to be set for the "main" route towards crewe 

The points at each end of the Down platform loop at Rhyl are normal to the loop and auto-normalising. If they freeze, they will be more likely to be failed normal, allowing passenger trains to still call at the station. 

Will

[phil-b259]

21 hours ago, meil said:

Points are Normal or Reversed. Normal usually sets the usual or main route, Reversed the diversionary route.

 

NOT SO!

 

The designation of the 'Normal' and 'Reverse' positions is in fact dominated by far more than the 'usual' direction of trains.

 

Things like the desire to include flank protection or to simply the design of the locking can mean that 99% of trains actually go over them in the reverse position.

 

Much depends therefore on the company and signalling designers responsible for installing the signalling - which of course may then be modified at a later date when policies change or alterations are needed.

[phil-b259]

17 hours ago, Trog said:

 

I believe that the little plates with the point number on them are usually positioned in the 4' near to the switch toe that is closed when the point is set normal.

 

Correct - though because these can sometimes be missing or work lose anyone who needs to be sure should consult the signalman and signalling diagrams to be sure.

[phil-b259]

21 minutes ago, jim.snowdon said:

A similar practice was common on the Southern Railway/Region for the simple reason that it reduced the number of lever movements that had to be made when setting routes through double junctions, particularly those with a high number of trains using each route, as could be comon in the London area. With the 'up' and 'down' points set normal in opposing directions, only one of them needed to be moved for any movement.

 

Jim

 

It also usually provides flank protection - the more frequent the service the more likely mistakes will be made and SPADs happen.

[Wheatley]

58 minutes ago, jim.snowdon said:

A similar practice was common on the Southern Railway/Region for the simple reason that it reduced the number of lever movements that had to be made when setting routes through double junctions

As well as flank protection this is a good example of the 'human' rather than mechanical reasons for doing something which, in our engineering-centric hobby, we sometimes forget. 

 

More lever movements per shift meant more points for the box, which risked it going up into a higher grade, which meant you had to pay the signalmen more. 

 

Once awarded, points could not easily be taken away, so my first box was a Class B despite it only being a passing place on a single line with two pairs of points and four signals. Ten years before it had been a double junction with goods loops and a couple of connections into yards. Persauding HR to let me downgrade myself to a much busier and more interesting Class A box turned out to be harder than I had expected despite both my manager and branch secretary supporting me. 

[Edwin_m]

5 hours ago, LMS2968 said:

The only instances I can think of are trap and catch points open or closed, and the meaning there is pretty clear.

And "open" for a trap point is always (unless someone posts and exception!) normal.  On a power signalling scheme these points will often auto-normalise, reverting to normal when the train is detected as having passed through, in case something should roll out of the siding/yard/whatever onto the main line.  The American useage of "open" for a loop ("siding") is more similar to the British "reverse".  

[The Stationmaster]

4 hours ago, ikcdab said:

Castle Cary was another one like this. Originally an "ordinary" through station on the Westbury to Weymouth line. In 1905 it became a junction with the opening of the new cut off to Taunton which rapidly became the main line. However, the signalbox always referred to the Weymouth line as the "main" right up until closure of the box in 1983. So at this box, the branch was the main line.

I was a heritage railway signalman for 30 years. Points were always referred to as normal or reversed, it was only catch points that we called open or closed.

Ian

The junction points at Castle Cary stood normal towards the Somerton line and not towards the Weymouth line although it might possibly have been the other way round prior to 1925 (I have no earlier information for the 'box than 1925).  and I don't know about Weymouth still being the main line route in later years - it was always 'the Weymouth branch' to us in the 1970s.

 

SRS records show the lever leads labelled as 'Main' (for the Somerton line) and 'Branch' for teh weymouth line which accords with my memory.

 

1 hour ago, Wheatley said:

As well as flank protection this is a good example of the 'human' rather than mechanical reasons for doing something which, in our engineering-centric hobby, we sometimes forget. 

 

More lever movements per shift meant more points for the box, which risked it going up into a higher grade, which meant you had to pay the signalmen more. 

 

Once awarded, points could not easily be taken away, so my first box was a Class B despite it only being a passing place on a single line with two pairs of points and four signals. Ten years before it had been a double junction with goods loops and a couple of connections into yards. Persauding HR to let me downgrade myself to a much busier and more interesting Class A box turned out to be harder than I had expected despite both my manager and branch secretary supporting me. 

There was a 'standstill' in place for many years on reassessing the grades of signal boxes (although it might have been limited to the WR?   No - it was definitely part of the National agreements and it was ended on 05 June 1972).  What it really meant in practoce was that the marks would no be taken for a 'box where either the equipment or traffic value had dropped.  Moving to alower grade 'box was fraught with problems because technically it contradicted the national Agreement in resect of retention of Grade rate of pay thus the Staff & Admin types were very keen not to let it happen.

 

I managed to get one of my Signalmen a move which technically contravened the National Agreements but I managed to get it past the Divisional Staff office on hardship grounds (which were in fact quite genuine).  And it repaid me a few years later when I took over the area  which that man had moved to as I was immediately best friends with the NUR Branch Secretary - which happened to be him.

[Wheatley]

Yes, I had to write a letter to the AOM explaining how travelling the extra 5 miles to my current box was causing financial hardship ! (he'd been suitably primed by my Traffic Manager who was all in favour of the move) and it went through in the end. This was Sheffield AMO, they could be remarkably petty over uniform, leave swaps, rostering and other minor issues which saved pennies at best but massively eroded good will, but did nothing about things which could really save money like taking points or knocking off night shifts for newspaper trains which hadn't run for ten years. 

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Wheatley said:

 but did nothing about things which could really save money like taking points or knocking off night shifts for newspaper trains which hadn't run for ten years. 

That's abysmal management.  When I  was an Asst AM Operating i reviewed, and amended as necessary, our signal box hours of opening at every timetable change.

[ikcdab]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

SRS records show the lever leads labelled as 'Main' (for the Somerton line) and 'Branch' for teh weymouth line which accords with my memory.

Hate to disagree, but SRS records show leads such as "Down main to Taunton inner home".

Looking at the SRS file, Weymouth is the main. Maybe it changed in later years.

https://documentcloud.adobe.com/link/review?uri=urn:aaid:scds:US:5682762b-3594-4a9f-aa7f-4a7caf267ba5

Ian

[The Stationmaster]

36 minutes ago, ikcdab said:

Hate to disagree, but SRS records show leads such as "Down main to Taunton inner home".

Looking at the SRS file, Weymouth is the main. Maybe it changed in later years.

https://documentcloud.adobe.com/link/review?uri=urn:aaid:scds:US:5682762b-3594-4a9f-aa7f-4a7caf267ba5

Ian

Notice S 2566 of May 1968 clearly shows the Somerton line as the Main and the Weymouth Line as the Branch - identifiable down to individual signals by name and position as a new Up Main Home Signal was provided at that time and clearly applies to the Somerton line while the Down Branch Starting  Signal is referred to along with its associated banner repeater - it was the only Starting Signal at Castle Cary which had a banner repeater.  Ipso facto the Weymouth Line was the branch. Similarly the reference to a disc signal at the catch point in the Down Main clearly refers to the Somerton Line as there was no catch point in the Weymouth Line.

 

There is no mention in the notice of any renaming of lines other than the Down loop at Castle Cary which was converted to a Passenger Loop which is hardly surprising as the summer 1938 STT shows a permanent restriction of speed to 60mph for Down Main Line trains at Castle Cary and a restriction to 30mph through the junction, and for some way beyond it, for Weymouth Line trains.  So in 1936 the Main Line was the line towards Somerton.  Similarly a 1917 STT refers to a permanent restriction of speed - 30mph as in 1936 - applying to Up and Down Weymouth Line trains with no restriction shown applying to the Somerton Line.

 

There are some oddities among those lever leads which indicate they refer to at least two distinct periods - thus for example No. 8 in the lower part refers to the signal reading from the Down Main Line Inner Home towards Yeovil (it requires 59 as part of its lead).   Any earlier reference to the Weymouth Line as the Main line was certainly incorrect by 1936 as the STT proves; so once again we are possibly looking at Reading singing out of a different (and much older) hymn sheet from the rest of the Company.

[ikcdab]

4 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

 

Ok. 1968 was when the Yeovil line was singled and much resignalling and trackwork took place. I was born and brought up in castle Cary and spent many hours in the 1970s trainspotting at the station. Many many hours! Wish I could go back to it now.

[The Stationmaster]

Alas the wartime 'box at cary was all too typical of its kind and an absolute s*d to keep properly clean despite my forever trying to nudge my signalmen there to have a go at it. not heplded by there beinga vacancy on one turn and a succession of relief men passing through and often not being there for very long.

[Oldddudders]

4 hours ago, Edwin_m said:

And "open" for a trap point is always (unless someone posts and exception!) normal.  On a power signalling scheme these points will often auto-normalise, reverting to normal when the train is detected as having passed through, in case something should roll out of the siding/yard/whatever onto the main line.  The American useage of "open" for a loop ("siding") is more similar to the British "reverse".  

"Lying open" is the term I would associate with a pair of points which have been run-through, breaking this or that so the switchblades are now in an intermediate position and must be clipped before any train may pass. 

[johnw1]

Point position is defined in two stages. First is Normal or Reverse, that is then followed by which switch is closed when the points are Normal ie Left Hand Switch Closed (LHSNC) or Right Hand Switch Closed (RHSNC). The switch closed when the points are deemed to be Normal is dependant on the layout and signalling arrangements.

Edited December 6, 2020 by johnw1