RCH Wagon Wheelbase and Over Headstocks Measurements.

[Guest]

Can anyone confirm whether any RCH Private Owner wagons with a 17ft 6ins measurement over the headstocks were ever built on chassis with a 9ft wheelbase. I have searched on this forum and on the Internet and the only site which I have been able to find showing drawings with measurements is on Adrian Johnstone's "Steam" site. The site has four drawings for 9ft wheelbase wagons - two complete Wagon drawings showing 16ft 6ins across headstocks, and two drawings for chassis only showing 17ft 6ins over headstocks. But interestingly there are none showing the longer wagon body on a 9ft wheelbas chassis,I would be grateful for any information. The drawings are all official April 1923 RCH drawings, and can be viewed here:-  http://www.cs.rhul.ac.uk/~adrian/steam/RCHWagons/index.html

 

 

Edited December 4, 2020 by Guest
Typo

[Wickham Green too]

Unlikely - there were plenty of 'Company' wagons built to those dimensions ( and 10' WB later ) - but "conventional" 'Owners' wagons rarely exceeded 16'6''.

[markw]

This one looks like it is 17'6", presumably intended for coke rather than coal.

https://hmrs.org.uk/photographs/fox-w-derby-13t-old-8-plank-now-p60940-built-by-charles-roberts-wakefield.html

[sir douglas]

Charles Roberts 10 ton coke (with the extra 2 planks on top) is 9' wheelbase and 17'6" length while coal wagons on that wheelbase went up to 16'6"

 

like this one

https://hmrs.org.uk/photographs/chas-roberts-10t-7-2-plank-coke-1675-built-1899-possibly-an-internal-use-vehicle.html

 

source Bill Hudson's PO wagon books

[corneliuslundie]

Possibly, but could it be one of the 9 ft 9 in/18 ft wagons to the RCH 1903 drawings of which not many were built for PO use? A comparison of the wheelbase and length seems to confirm this; a 17 ft 6 in. wagon on a 9 ft wheelbase would have much greater overhang. This photo appears in Turton's fifth volume but with no indication of dimensions, though he states that it was built in 1931. The only doubt in my mind is that the RCH spec was for a 15 ton wagon. Bill Hudson also has a section  on Fox wagons but not this one.

But that doesn't help the enquirer.

Jonathan

[Wickham Green too]

My VERY crude measurement of wheelbase, wheel diameter and headstock length on the screen suggests it's very close to 16'6" long .......... it has all the characteristics of a bog-standard Charles Roberts wagon so far as I can see !

( No prizes for guessing who they got the transfers from ! )

[Guest]

13 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

My VERY crude measurement of wheelbase, wheel diameter and headstock length on the screen suggests it's very close to 16'6" long .......... it has all the characteristics of a bog-standard Charles Roberts wagon so far as I can see !

( No prizes for guessing who they got the transfers from ! )

 

As much as I would like it to be otherwise, I have to agree, it does look more like a 16'6" wagon on a 9ft wheelbase chassis. My main reason for asking is to confirm (or otherwise) that the two 17'6" private owner wagons featuring Station Agent Coal Merchants on the K&ESR , and produced as specials by Dapol could have been mounted on 9ft W/B chassis, rather than the 10ft chassis they come mounted on.

[jim.snowdon]

20 hours ago, David Schweizer said:

Can anyone confirm whether any RCH Private Owner wagons with a 17ft 6ins measurement over the headstocks were ever built on chassis with a 9ft wheelbase. I have searched on this forum and on the Internet and the only site which I have been able to find showing drawings with measurements is on Adrian Johnstone's "Steam" site. The site has four drawings for 9ft wheelbase wagons - two complete Wagon drawings showing 16ft 6ins across headstocks, and two drawings for chassis only showing 17ft 6ins over headstocks. But interestingly there are none showing the longer wagon body on a 9ft wheelbas chassis,I would be grateful for any information. The drawings are all official April 1923 RCH drawings, and can be viewed here:-  http://www.cs.rhul.ac.uk/~adrian/steam/RCHWagons/index.html

 

 

Yes, but they would be coke wagons (of the non-convertible type). The 1923 issue RCH drawings include both 16' 6" and 17' 6" underframes because, apart from the coke wagons, they also cover merchandise wagons, and then there are the other underframes for the 20T wagons and the tank wagons.

 

I have a nearly complete set of the RCH drawings in scanned form dating back to the 1907 series and a few from the 1904 set (which are mostly tank wagons). Individual drawings are emailable if required.

 

Jim

[Guest]

Thanks for that confirmation Jim. One of the two Station Agent Coal Merchants, Arthur Taunt, was my Great Grandfather , and I have a copy of an advertisement he placed in the 1923 issue of Thomsan's Almanac, where he describes himself as a Coal and Coke merchant, so it is possible that he did have a longer wagon for transporting Coke. There are no known photos of the two wagons he owned, and the Dapol model is based upon the recollections of a former employee. I already have a 16'6" wagon of earlier style construction with a wooden 9ft W/B chassis, which I built myself, and numbered No.1, so a  17'6" wagon for Coke, numbered No.2, is a realistic possibility.

 

 

Edited December 5, 2020 by Guest
typo

[Compound2632]

5 hours ago, David Schweizer said:

 a  17'6" wagon for Coke, numbered No.2, is a realistic possibility.

 

I'm highly sceptical of any RCH 1923 mineral wagon (coal or coke) being anything other than 16'6" over headstocks and 9'0" wheelbase, though I dare say someone will provide evidence of an exception - but it would remain an exception not the norm. Any RTR 00 coal or coke wagon 70 mm over headstocks and 40 mm wheelbase is best dismissed as a Work Of Fiction.

[sir douglas]

for coal, yes they didnt go over 16'6", in the 1910's there were many coke wagons 17'6" with 9' wheelbase but i cant find any in the Hudson books after 1923

 

 

[wagonman]

22 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I'm highly sceptical of any RCH 1923 mineral wagon (coal or coke) being anything other than 16'6" over headstocks and 9'0" wheelbase, though I dare say someone will provide evidence of an exception - but it would remain an exception not the norm. Any RTR 00 coal or coke wagon 70 mm over headstocks and 40 mm wheelbase is best dismissed as a Work Of Fiction.

 

In essence anything that wasn't 16' 6" OH with 9' WB didn't adhere to the RCH 1923 specification.

 

 

[Guest]

 

I have just re-read the drawings I found on Adrian's site. The text at the bottom of these drawings would suggest that wagons with 17'6" over headstocks with a 9ft wheelbase were authorised by the 1923 RCH specifications for the transportation of Coke. Whether any were actually built for private owners is another issue, but It would seem that, in theory, my 17'6" Coke and Coal Merchants wagons would comply.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 7, 2020 by Guest

[jim.snowdon]

3 hours ago, David Schweizer said:

I have just re-read the drawings I found on Adrian's site. The text at the bottom of these drawings would suggest that wagons with 17'6" over headstocks with a 9ft wheelbase were authorised by the 1923 RCH specifications for the transportation of Coke. Whether any were actually built for private owners is another issue, but It would seem that, in theory, my 17'6" Coke and Coal Merchants wagons would comply.

There were. They aren't common, but there are photographs. Volume 3 of Bill Hudson's private Owner Wagons has one belonging to Abbot's of Birmingham (plate 67) and I have a feeling that there is another one buried somewhere in the four volumes (not least as I modelled on in 7mm scale). Apart from the fixed coke raves, they look a little odd because the extra foot is in the centre section, so the door has a wider than usual gap between it and the washer plates for the middle body knees.

 

It is also worth remembering that these drawings are not so much authorised designs to be followed to the letter, but pre-approved designs which, if followed, got you through the registration process faster. The way the RCH process worked is that a private owner could commission any design of wagon he liked, but the first step towards getting it accepted for registration by the main line railways was to get the design approved by the relevant RCH committee, on which the main line railways were represented. If it complied with the RCH specifications (the written bit) and the railways were satisfied that it presented no other hazards to them, the design could be approved. Then it fell to the resident inspector for the railway undertaking the registration (not necessarily the railway on which it would be 'at home') to verify that it had been properly constructed to the approved design. Using the RCH 'standard' designs and components helped in getting approval, and was in the owners' best interests as well as it facilitated getting repairs done by avoiding the need to send away for special parts, especially ironwork and running gear.

 

Jim