2021 hopes

[Black 5 Bear]

1 hour ago, MGR Hooper! said:

Thanks for the clarification, I'm not just referring to the predictions. I've actually seen a lot of people say that the Black 5 and Std 8F need a re-tool. And I'm struggling to see how they can be improved. The Duchess and Princess Coronation Class had room for improvement.

In the case of the 8f you can still see the mechanism poking out from under the boiler.

For the Black 5, the non prototypical ledge on the tender unit where it meets the chassis. Both locos could do with a more realistic front bogie and losing the moulding top seam on the boiler section.

Wasn't it Hornby a few years back, who said they were going to revamp the current loco range year on year fuelling customer expectation?

TBH, I agree with you that neither loco is particularly bad. To my mind, they still have the look of the real thing.

Edited December 8, 2020 by Black 5 Bear

[tomparryharry]

I reckon it's about time Hornby re-released Flying Scotsman. It  must be about.. What?.. 6 weeks? 

 

I'm only joking folks; only joking....

 

Cheers,

Ian 

[Brocp]

4 hours ago, MGR Hooper! said:

Any reason as to why people keep wanting the Black 5 and 8F retooled?? How much can they improved? 

They both need a new chassis quite badly for one. A new 9 ton 4000 gallon tender is something LMS fans have wanted for a while, the Hornby one is crap compared to Bachmann's offering. The Black 5 has that stupid infill under the smokebox that's not on the real thing. It's missing a lot of little details that Brassmasters detail pack luckily. Overall that and the 8F aren't bad, but they are the best part of 20 years old and really it's time they were brought up to current standards. 

[Karl]

Thinking what may be produced we've had new 0-6-0 tender locos from Hornby from the SR and LNER regions in the last few years I don't recall an LMS one. Could this be the LMS's year for one and we might see an ex L&Y Class 25 or 27. There's preserved of each to measure and ornate lined L&Y for an impact 'wow' livery along side LMS and BR liveries.

[MGR Hooper!]

In the years before this, normally Hornby would invite members of the modelling press to their HQ and update them on the forthcoming range. I wonder if it will be done this year in a virtual manner

[adb968008]

5 hours ago, MGR Hooper! said:

Any reason as to why people keep wanting the Black 5 and 8F retooled?? How much can they improved? 

The biggest issue I see with them is the unrealistic wheels.

However they are Hornby standard wheels, so I dont see scope to change unless someone else makes them.

 

if they retooled the 8f body to make under the boiler better, it would be nice but think sticker shock would have an impact on sales, when comparing old to new. Many will shrug shoulders, walk on and stick with what they have.

The best way to overcome sticker shock is to eliminate the comparison, so tool something that hasn't been tooled before.

[The Johnster]

There seems to be an assumption that a new tooling is by definition an improvement on an older tooling, but this may not always be the case.  The Black 5 and 8F are, as has been said, pretty good but not perfect as they are, and the visible mech of the 8F might be able to be dealt with by a new mech without retooling the entire loco (I'm thinking of early Bachmann adaptations of Mainline/Replica locos with split chassis, which were improved by a new can motor and chassis block without retooling the bodies).  Tbh, can't see H doing much to either of these locos, which are pivotal to post 30s LMS/LMR layouts and a lot of other places under BR.  They are, to my mind, 'to current standards' as they are, and, if they were retooled to be cheaper to produce, might actually not be improved in fidelity.  Be careful what you wish for!

 

I'd like to see retoolings of some of the very old stuff still in the catalogue but not up 'to current standards', but retoolings of 21st century designs seem pointless unless they are previously unmodelled versions (Stephenson or Caprotti, or double chimney Ivatt Black 5s, for instance).

Edited December 8, 2020 by The Johnster

[Brocp]

5 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

There seems to be an assumption that a new tooling is by definition an improvement on an older tooling, but this may not always be the case.  The Black 5 and 8F are, as has been said, pretty good but not perfect as they are, and the visible mech of the 8F might be able to be dealt with by a new mech without retooling the entire loco (I'm thinking of early Bachmann adaptations of Mainline/Replica locos with split chassis, which were improved by a new can motor and chassis block without retooling the bodies).  Tbh, can't see H doing much to either of these locos, which are pivotal to post 30s LMS/LMR layouts and a lot of other places under BR.  They are, to my mind, 'to current standards' as they are, and, if they were retooled to be cheaper to produce, might actually not be improved in fidelity.  Be careful what you wish for!

 

I'd like to see retoolings of some of the very old stuff still in the catalogue but not up 'to current standards', but retoolings of 21st century designs seem pointless unless they are previously unmodelled versions (Stephenson or Caprotti, or double chimney Ivatt Black 5s, for instance).

That makes no sense at all. A retooled Black 5, 8F, rebuilt Merchant Navy would be definitely better to what we currently have. The chassis alone would be a monstrous improvement and hopefully Hornby would tool up versions of each we've not yet seen. 

 

Also if they don't do it sooner rather than later, someone else will. Especially now that it's no longer a two horse race.

[Downer]

20 minutes ago, Brocp said:

That makes no sense at all. A retooled Black 5, 8F, rebuilt Merchant Navy would be definitely better to what we currently have. The chassis alone would be a monstrous improvement and hopefully Hornby would tool up versions of each we've not yet seen. 

 

Also if they don't do it sooner rather than later, someone else will. Especially now that it's no longer a two horse race.

 

A slight improvement perhaps.  But the cost would be something new not being tooled. 

[phil gollin]

6 hours ago, MGR Hooper! said:

Any reason as to why people keep wanting the Black 5 and 8F retooled?? How much can they improved? 

.

 

Purely personally, I've always found the Hornby Stanier 8Fs lack any real sense of power and heaviness present in the real thing.    I have no idea why, there is just something missing.  The Hornby Dublo one was atrocious in many ways, but had the right "presence".

 

I hope I like a new one when it is released, I have a "space" for  one on my Southern Region layout based on a series of photos showing one going through East Croydon station with a ridiculously long train of parcels coaches on a racing pigeon special.

 

.

[Legend]

2 hours ago, Black 5 Bear said:

In the case of the 8f you can still see the mechanism poking out from under the boiler.

For the Black 5, the non prototypical ledge on the tender unit where it meets the chassis. Both locos could do with a more realistic front bogie and losing the moulding top seam on the boiler section.

Wasn't it Hornby a few years back, who said they were going to revamp the current loco range year on year fuelling customer expectation?

TBH, I agree with you that neither loco is particularly bad. To my mind, they still have the look of the real thing.

 

I'm just wondering if a further aspect to this is die cast bodies .  Duchess of Atholl was a success and the technology seems to be there now that castings are as good as plastic mouldings . Could we see a diecast 8F . That would probably have people salivating . Especially if it were in a Hornby Dublo box .  I've got an 85 tender powered black 5 and 2 of the latest ones , which are fine models . Can't see me splashing out on another one 

[The Johnster]

1 hour ago, Brocp said:

That makes no sense at all. A retooled Black 5, 8F, rebuilt Merchant Navy would be definitely better to what we currently have. The chassis alone would be a monstrous improvement and hopefully Hornby would tool up versions of each we've not yet seen. 

 

Also if they don't do it sooner rather than later, someone else will. Especially now that it's no longer a two horse race.

It makes sense from Hornby's point of view, which is different to that of a modeller.  We always want stuff retooled to our own standards, which is not always feasible in a business sense for the manufacturer.  Hornby have retooled the old Airfix prairie, for example, having already tweaked the body moulding and provided a new mech and better pickups to the old one, but it had clearly passed it's sell by and the retool is a very satisfactory model.  But when was the original brought out, 1976 or something?  It was a ground breaker at the time, I remember, with brake detail and daylight visible beneath the boiler, and separate handrails; Hornby were the only game in town until this appeared and it rang rings around any of their stuff.

 

Now, it looks crude; there is no cab detail and that awful chassis block still latches to the body by means of a great slot in the rear of the bunker, and the weakness of the plastic slide bars needed addressing.  I can see why Hornby retooled it, especially as a response to Dapol announcing one and to 'go with' the 57' Collett suburbans.  I can't see what's in it for Hornby to retool the Black 5 or the 8F, especially as there are a queue of previous models to revisit with an up to date tooling; N15, LMS 2P, Fowler tank, pugs, 14xx, all at least 3 or 4 decades old and really not up to the modern mark.  Black 5s, 8Fs, rebuilt Merchant Navies, more Duchesses, Lizzies, A4s, really?  The ones we have are pretty good.

 

Meantime, Hornby have re-released the 1961 LOTI and shorty clerestories, with little improvement beyond better (but just as incorrect as ever) plug in B1 bogies.  They even have the old separate underframe from the 8" Stanier coaches, old hat in 1961!  I doubt that any 'serious' modeller would bother with them except as kitbashing fodder, but there is a market of people who wish to recreate their dream childhood layouts, which is sort of modelling models as they were back in the 60s or 70s or whenever.  Now, while this seems pointless to my way of thinking, there is no doubting the 'retro charm' to such modelling, and it highlights that Hornby are not just producing stuff for people like us who describe themselves as 'proper' modellers, whatever that is; there are collectors, retro modellers, and all sorts of other customers that Hornby have to consider if they are to maximise profit return for their backers.  What I think is not important to Hornby, the bottom line is 'can we produce it at a price the market will bear and make a profit'.  One wonders how much more money H could have made by releasing a modern hi-fi Dean Single and matching scale length clerestories with proper underframes and bogies, and when one takes into account that the loco would probably cost over £200 in DC, and the coaches probably £70 or £80, it is feasible that re-releasing the 'retro' versions in the Railroad range will make more money!

 

And they are in a unique position to do this, having been in the game since 1947.  Not all the old tooling is avaialble of course, but there is money to be made out of that which is still avaialble.  Someone a few posts back mentioned the Southern Utility Van, another model from the LOTi era.  I have one of these, Roxeyfied, and apart from the raised mouldings that represent what should be gaps between the planks, which I can live with, I am quite happy with it.  The Roxeyfication, and a repaint in faded crimson, has completely altered the 'presence' of the model, and shows what can be done with intelligently designed improvements.  But I'd bin it in a heartbeat if a modern tooling became available, though I doubt Hornby would consider it as it is a bit too close to their Southern bogie Van B.

[TomScrut]

I recon that new tooling might be a bit thin on the ground given what has been done this year. I do expect however retooled mk4s including DVT to go with the 91. Some are what have already covered before, all modern day as I aren't interested enough in the older stuff to comment. It would be nice to see some modern wagon tooling, Hornby seem to be almost ignoring this part of the market.

 

My predictions:

Mk4s + DVT. Intercity Swallow and LNER to start with as a guess, I don't think there will be a rake to match every 91 at launch. I also don't expect TfW until later on.

Another 91 or two. 91119 in modern day IC Swallow one of them.

TPE 802 - This was mentioned in this year's so I would think it will be in next year. Whether it's withdrawal was due to technicalities (tooling mods required for the cooler packs and 1 less window boarded up for the buffet) I don't know.

GBRF 60 - Open goal I think, 2 different liveries to go at too I think?

DC 56 and/or 60 - Either would be popular I think. Maybe Cappagh on the 60 DC on the 56?

DB Puma 60

Colas ex EMT HST power cars - Best thing Hornby have tooling wise to go with the NR 2Fs and typically anything yellow or related to NR sells well.

DRS 2Fs (new running nos) - Last batch sold well, they did a rerun of ScotRail on what I presume were the same grounds

 

I'd probably have a decent proportion of these if they happen.

 

3 wishlist items I think are unlikely but would be up my street:

 

Hull Trains 802

Drax Biomass hopper rerun (crazy ebay prices indicate there is a demand)

Unbranded Northern 153

 

Edited December 8, 2020 by TomScrut

[TomScrut]

20 hours ago, adb968008 said:

which it is my line to defend how popular preserved stuff is

 

It is certainly popular with me, although it probably only makes up around 15% of my loco fleet.

 

I think part of the issue is that there are two markets IMO. One is preserved for running a heritage side line (as per what I want) and the others are collectors wanting to put them in a cabinet.

 

A LOT of the locos released "as preseved" might never turn a wheel in anger again making them ornaments/redundant on the modern layout. I look for stuff that is at least still running/may run again. I'd maybe just about risk the 1:1 Bittern for example as whilst it is in storage now it was in steam not long ago and so a change of heart/money/mind/owner could mean its on the mainline again. It's not like Mallard where it hasn't run for about 30 years.

 

BUT, and maybe 2022/23 instead of 2021, I reckon a model of SNG will be out once it is back running.

[Mark Dickerson]

4 hours ago, truffy said:

 

And many of those new items won’t be rolling stock. 
 

Track pins in 250 additional length and width combinations, anyone?

I wonder if you've accidentally - um - almost hit the nail on the head:

 

Track. I've heard of shortages of supplies (of Peco, gaps on Hornby's website, too), there's increased demand. If they wanted to expand or replace the range, now might be the time. Dockside tracks or infills might be attractive, or they could make a convertor and have something like Kato's Unitrack or Fleischmann's Profi with moulded ballast (Bachmann US have EZ track but much more limited).

 

As to stock, I guess (want) an industrial diesel, perhaps a Ruston; sooner or later someone must blink and make a LMS push-pull set; and I'd expect to see the 110 in Railroad, possibly creftily retooled to a 104...

[Dunsignalling]

Re a couple of recent mentions.

 

The N15 has already been fully revamped. I have four of them which cover most of the cab/tender combinations and they are some of the very best of Hornby's 21st century locos. Way ahead of the 5MT, 8F and Rebuilt MN.

 

A Class 104 dmu has already been announced by Heljan and is due for release fairly soon.

 

John

Edited December 8, 2020 by Dunsignalling

[DutyDruid]

20 minutes ago, Mark Dickerson said:

 

Track. I've heard of shortages of supplies (of Peco, gaps on Hornby's website, too), there's increased demand. If they wanted to expand or replace the range, now might be the time.

 

 

Or we could all start building our own? (ducks and runs for flame proof bunker)

[MGR Hooper!]

2 hours ago, TomScrut said:

Mk4s + DVT. Intercity Swallow and LNER to start with as a guess, I don't think there will be a rake to match every 91 at launch. I also don't expect TfW until later on.

 

Drax Biomass hopper rerun (crazy ebay prices indicate there is a demand)
 

Not producing Mk4 coaches and a Mk4 DVT to accompany the 4 Class 91s that they announced this year will be shooting themselves in the foot. Seeing that the LNER and VTEC Mk4 coaches shared the same livery they basically have to do 3 livery variations (with a slight change of branding here and there to replicate the LNER and VTEC sets).

Drax Biomass hoppers is quite doubtful, Hornby don't own the tooling. It was commissioned by Drax, for Drax. The incredibly high price for the individual units in the first batch was simply to recover the tooling cost and that's it. So highly unlikely.

 

Edited December 8, 2020 by MGR Hooper!

[TomScrut]

1 hour ago, Mark Dickerson said:

Track. I've heard of shortages of supplies (of Peco, gaps on Hornby's website, too), there's increased demand. If they wanted to expand or replace the range, now might be the time. Dockside tracks or infills might be attractive, or they could make a convertor and have something like Kato's Unitrack or Fleischmann's Profi with moulded ballast (Bachmann US have EZ track but much more limited).

 

Yeah I'd be interested to know Peco's market share in the UK. If Hornby did some streamline type trackwork then assuming the quality was also better I'd consider it. H have just laid a load of track using only streamline and flexi (still code 100) to replace my previous layout which used a mixture of settrack and streamline and the pointwork looks brilliant comparatively speaking. Whilst still not prototypical it makes a mockery of how bad settrack looks.

 

I wouldn't clone the Peco geometry though, I think a clever thing to do would be to make the points etc work on 67 centres but have mouldings suitable for joiners at 50mm spacing with an appropriate accessory (sold separately) to act as a jig to cut down to 50mm. Sometimes one doesn't have the space to run 50mm centres (or should I say the space for the turning radii necessary to do so) amd therefore 67 is more straightforward with almost everything passing everything at R2. My previous layout was like this, so I had an 80mm or so long strip to put in-between streamline points facing each other which was a PITA.

[Kris]

10 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

I wouldn't clone the Peco geometry though, I think a clever thing to do would be to make the points etc work on 67 centres but have mouldings suitable for joiners at 50mm spacing with an appropriate accessory (sold separately) to act as a jig to cut down to 50mm. Sometimes one doesn't have the space to run 50mm centres (or should I say the space for the turning radii necessary to do so) amd therefore 67 is more straightforward with almost everything passing everything at R2. My previous layout was like this, so I had an 80mm or so long strip to put in-between streamline points facing each other which was a PITA.

It would possibly be better to do it the other way round. Have them set up for 50mm spacings but with a track section ready to take it to the 67mm section. This would save modification of track that would put some people off.

[TomScrut]

11 minutes ago, MGR Hooper! said:

Not producing Mk4 coaches and a Mk4 DVT to accompany the 4 Class 91s that they announced this year will be shooting themselves in the foot. Seeing that the LNER and VTEC Mk4 coaches shared the same livery they basically have to do 3 livery variations (with a slight change of branding here and there to replicate the LNER and VTEC sets).

Drax Biomass hoppers is quite doubtful, Hornby don't own the tooling. It was commissioned by Drax, for Drax. The incredibly high price for the individual units in the first batch was simply to recover the tooling cost and that's it. So highly unlikely.

 

 

Yeah I was thinking that effectively 4 rakes of mk4s in one hit would maybe be a bit much? And most people would be appeased by the fact that if the tooling was done then 2022 would probably bring their rake to market.

 

As you say though, could the LNER and VTEC coaches be the same and the DVT is all that differs?

 

RE the Drax wagons, yeah I doubt it too (as I say in my OP) but I'd like them anyway. Best outcome for me would probably be AS to do them at £35 a pop like they are the IIAs!

[TomScrut]

1 minute ago, Kris said:

It would possibly be better to do it the other way round. Have them set up for 50mm spacings but with a track section ready to take it to the 67mm section. This would save modification of track that would put some people off.

 

Maybe so, then its more joints too. Putting some track cutters through them is not exactly a hardship and I'd expect anybody wanting to make something at 50mm centres would be needing that anyway (as they'd likely be using flex, and streamline points close to each other often need a snip here or there to clear each other)

[GordonC]

21 minutes ago, MGR Hooper! said:

Not producing Mk4 coaches and a Mk4 DVT to accompany the 4 Class 91s that they announced this year will be shooting themselves in the foot. Seeing that the LNER and VTEC Mk4 coaches shared the same livery they basically have to do 3 livery variations (with a slight change of branding here and there to replicate the LNER and VTEC sets).

Drax Biomass hoppers is quite doubtful, Hornby don't own the tooling. It was commissioned by Drax, for Drax. The incredibly high price for the individual units in the first batch was simply to recover the tooling cost and that's it. So highly unlikely.

 

 

re: Drax Biomass hoppers

 

the high cost was also presumably to cover half of the production run being given away as corporate freebies as well

[Colin]

On the coaching stock side, personally I’d like to see a couple of gaps filled - a Stanier 60’ CK would be very welcome as would a couple more Gresleys such as a CK and BTK, IMHO the current ranges make authentic formations rather difficult to replicate.

I think us Southern fans are fairly well served now (or will be once the Blue Team’s Bulleids appear) although LSWR Ironclads would be rather nice!

For post steam blue-era modellers, the biggest gap has surely to be Mk2b/c stock.

 

Final plea is for Hornby to get more use out of their diecast Duchess tooling and produce City Of London in BR maroon! More than a few hundred units this time around might be a good idea.....

[TravisM]

With a large percentage of people asking for the black 5 and 8f to be retooled but looking at it from Hornby’s point of view, if both are selling well, why bother for now?  I appreciate that they both have faults but I would say that a good 90% including me, and I’m quite picky are happy with them.