2021 hopes

[TomScrut]

9 minutes ago, GordonC said:

 

re: Drax Biomass hoppers

 

the high cost was also presumably to cover half of the production run being given away as corporate freebies as well

 

I'd be interested to know what the demographic of origins the ones going for £150+ on eBay. Imagine not being interested in this stuff, being given one as a freebie and then picking it out of a box a few years later to find they fetch £150 on eBay!

[Black 5 Bear]

2 hours ago, The Johnster said:

It makes sense from Hornby's point of view, which is different to that of a modeller.  We always want stuff retooled to our own standards, which is not always feasible in a business sense for the manufacturer.  Hornby have retooled the old Airfix prairie, for example, having already tweaked the body moulding and provided a new mech and better pickups to the old one, but it had clearly passed it's sell by and the retool is a very satisfactory model.  But when was the original brought out, 1976 or something?  It was a ground breaker at the time, I remember, with brake detail and daylight visible beneath the boiler, and separate handrails; Hornby were the only game in town until this appeared and it rang rings around any of their stuff.

 

Now, it looks crude; there is no cab detail and that awful chassis block still latches to the body by means of a great slot in the rear of the bunker, and the weakness of the plastic slide bars needed addressing.  I can see why Hornby retooled it, especially as a response to Dapol announcing one and to 'go with' the 57' Collett suburbans.  I can't see what's in it for Hornby to retool the Black 5 or the 8F, especially as there are a queue of previous models to revisit with an up to date tooling; N15, LMS 2P, Fowler tank, pugs, 14xx, all at least 3 or 4 decades old and really not up to the modern mark.  Black 5s, 8Fs, rebuilt Merchant Navies, more Duchesses, Lizzies, A4s, really?  The ones we have are pretty good.

 

Meantime, Hornby have re-released the 1961 LOTI and shorty clerestories, with little improvement beyond better (but just as incorrect as ever) plug in B1 bogies.  They even have the old separate underframe from the 8" Stanier coaches, old hat in 1961!  I doubt that any 'serious' modeller would bother with them except as kitbashing fodder, but there is a market of people who wish to recreate their dream childhood layouts, which is sort of modelling models as they were back in the 60s or 70s or whenever.  Now, while this seems pointless to my way of thinking, there is no doubting the 'retro charm' to such modelling, and it highlights that Hornby are not just producing stuff for people like us who describe themselves as 'proper' modellers, whatever that is; there are collectors, retro modellers, and all sorts of other customers that Hornby have to consider if they are to maximise profit return for their backers.  What I think is not important to Hornby, the bottom line is 'can we produce it at a price the market will bear and make a profit'.  One wonders how much more money H could have made by releasing a modern hi-fi Dean Single and matching scale length clerestories with proper underframes and bogies, and when one takes into account that the loco would probably cost over £200 in DC, and the coaches probably £70 or £80, it is feasible that re-releasing the 'retro' versions in the Railroad range will make more money!

 

And they are in a unique position to do this, having been in the game since 1947.  Not all the old tooling is avaialble of course, but there is money to be made out of that which is still avaialble.  Someone a few posts back mentioned the Southern Utility Van, another model from the LOTi era.  I have one of these, Roxeyfied, and apart from the raised mouldings that represent what should be gaps between the planks, which I can live with, I am quite happy with it.  The Roxeyfication, and a repaint in faded crimson, has completely altered the 'presence' of the model, and shows what can be done with intelligently designed improvements.  But I'd bin it in a heartbeat if a modern tooling became available, though I doubt Hornby would consider it as it is a bit too close to their Southern bogie Van B.

Sorry Johnster, but why on earth would Hornby want to revamp the N15 which is a superb model, albeit one that tends to languish on the shelves?

Better prospects for making money would be a Rebuilt M/N and the Stanier 8F, both of which would sell well IMHO.

[Black 5 Bear]

18 minutes ago, jools1959 said:

With a large percentage of people asking for the black 5 and 8f to be retooled but looking at it from Hornby’s point of view, if both are selling well, why bother for now?  I appreciate that they both have faults but I would say that a good 90% including me, and I’m quite picky are happy with them.

FYI Jools, the 8F hasn't been in the catalogue for the last couple of years, although still see the odd one being advertised for sale. Kernow recently had the LMS version advertised in their bargain section.

[Cor-onGRT4]

18 minutes ago, Black 5 Bear said:

FYI Jools, the 8F hasn't been in the catalogue for the last couple of years

Well it maybe not for the last couple of years, but it is in the 2020 one, that's the one on sale at Kernow.

[daltonparva]

50 minutes ago, jools1959 said:

With a large percentage of people asking for the black 5 and 8f to be retooled but looking at it from Hornby’s point of view, if both are selling well, why bother for now?  I appreciate that they both have faults but I would say that a good 90% including me, and I’m quite picky are happy with them.

Rather than produce a new black 5/8f for 10% improvement, I'd rather have a completely different new loco and have the 90% old 5/8 as well.

[RyanN91]

I'm probably in a minority here This probably is an unpopular opinion here but I'd rather Hornby would reissue locos, rolling stock etc of existing tooling since 2008 rather than re-tool their back catalogue for example let's take the 2004 tooling for the BR Class 50 which is still a very highly detailed model. (although I'm not against it inless further advances in technologies to exceed super detailed and I would be more than happy to see reintroduced models in old and new liveries name plates etc as opposed to newly tooled products ! (In particular the BR Standard Clan Class 6MT which I really hope this is reintroduced in 2021!)  Again I'd rather models of a what they already have were reissued and instead focus on issuing newly tooled models of rolling stock of which is in highly in demand and which are frequently requested for but which Hornby haven't produced one of yet . Or which ever hasn't been in the range for years where the toolings are so worn away or dated to todays standards of which so new tooling is required to choose which ever they choose to launch depending on demand.

[Black 5 Bear]

1 hour ago, Cor-onGRT4 said:

Well it maybe not for the last couple of years, but it is in the 2020 one, that's the one on sale at Kernow.

Except if you read the catalogue page on the website it relates to the 8F 48035 which is the late BR version, yet shows a diagram of the LMS 8F shown as era3. Confusing?

FYI, it's shown as out of stock and has been for some time at Hornby.

Edited December 8, 2020 by Black 5 Bear

[Fireline]

I can't help wondering if, given the highly ambitious programme for the 100th Anniversary this year, 2021 might be rather more restrained...

[MarkSG]

23 hours ago, micklner said:

Great example to quote.

USA Tanks a limited edition of ten versions and now ModelRail are reducing the price  to try and sell the last four versions off, as they still havent managed to sell them all, after how long ? .

  

Hornby dont work that way, they cant afford to. All they want to do is sell all the stock asap,and move on to the next subject. Perhaps you didnt know, or need more research before making comments.

 

As I've pointed out on several occasions before when this kind of comment crops up, an end-of-line discount is something that many manufacturers routinely build into the pricing formula. There are all sorts of reasons why it's a good idea, but mainly it works because it reaches a second wave of customers - the ones who aren't so keen on the product that they'll pay the full price, but may be tempted by a discount. It's all about exploiting the demand curve and consumer reservation price.

 

After all, if you can sell, say, a thousand of them at full price, why not make five hundred more and then sell those at a lower price after you've shifted the first thousand? So long as your initial full-price sale period recoups your development costs (which is the big, up-front investment), the rest is just a bonus.

 

In fact, building in an end-of-line discount is so common, and so valuable to the manufacturer, that, far from it being a sign that they made too many in the first place, the lack of a later discount indicates pretty strongly that they made too few.

 

And Hornby do work like that. A lot of their models are later discounted - maybe not directly to us, via their own website, but to their retail customers who then pass on those discounts in turn. I've bought several discounted Hornby products from my local model shop, or online.

 

As for more research, I rather think that people who don't understand the economics of pricing are the ones who need to be doing it!

[Mark Dickerson]

4 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Re a couple of recent mentions.

...

A Class 104 dmu has already been announced by Heljan and is due for release fairly soon.

But would a Railroad version cost anywhere near as much? Different target market, although keeping it as a 110 would be my bet. I could see it showing up in a future "family pack" or whatever they're called.

[SomethingTrainLover]

It's already been touched upon, but I'm kind of hoping they do an S160. I think there's enough demand for one to justify making them, and the Bachmann S100s have been quite popular.

Otherwise, hoping this is the year we finally get preservation IEG Stepney ;).

[surfsup]

3 hours ago, TomScrut said:

 

Yeah I was thinking that effectively 4 rakes of mk4s in one hit would maybe be a bit much? And most people would be appeased by the fact that if the tooling was done then 2022 would probably bring their rake to market.

 

As you say though, could the LNER and VTEC coaches be the same and the DVT is all that differs?

 

RE the Drax wagons, yeah I doubt it too (as I say in my OP) but I'd like them anyway. Best outcome for me would probably be AS to do them at £35 a pop like they are the IIAs!

 

Another bonus for Hornby if they do re-tool the Mk4s is that TfW Is keeping their Mk4s in the VTEC livery, with only TfW branding added to some of the coaches. Therefore widening the spread of that livery to cover Cardiff - Crewe - Holyhead / Llandudno / Manchester. 

[TomScrut]

3 minutes ago, surfsup said:

 

Another bonus for Hornby if they do re-tool the Mk4s is that TfW Is keeping their Mk4s in the VTEC livery, with only TfW branding added to some of the coaches. Therefore widening the spread of that livery to cover Cardiff - Crewe - Holyhead / Llandudno / Manchester. 

 

Yes I think that will definitely be in their mind especially given they also tool the 67. Wouldn't surprise me if a TfW 67 turned up next year with the coaches and DVT a year after.

 

I think I said in the 91 thread there probably hasn't been a better time for doing a new tooling of the mk4 and DVT. Although since I said that the GC 90 runs have been binned.

 

It wouldn't surprise me if there was another 91 in the announcements either, like 91119 for example.

[GordonC]

2 hours ago, Mark Dickerson said:

But would a Railroad version cost anywhere near as much? Different target market, although keeping it as a 110 would be my bet. I could see it showing up in a future "family pack" or whatever they're called.

 

The trouble is, if you wanted a unit to sell to kids in railroad packs, would you choose a Class 104? Would you not pick something a bit more up to date that kids might have seen or ridden on? If a Class 104/110 is produced, I'd think it would need to be full-fat. Assuming the Class 110 tooling is still available, there isn't much wrong with that for the Railroad range.

[TravisM]

1 hour ago, GordonC said:

 

The trouble is, if you wanted a unit to sell to kids in railroad packs, would you choose a Class 104? Would you not pick something a bit more up to date that kids might have seen or ridden on? If a Class 104/110 is produced, I'd think it would need to be full-fat. Assuming the Class 110 tooling is still available, there isn't much wrong with that for the Railroad range.

The 142 and the ex Lima 156 would be great in the RR range because their current, albeit the 142 are rapidly disappearing.  Unfortunately, Hornby keep churning out the 156 in the full fat range.  If Hornby re-release the ex Dapol 150/2 and 155 in the RR range, I think Hornby would have a excellent range to encourage younger modellers into the current railway scene.  But I could be just talking out of my rear end .

[GordonC]

6 minutes ago, jools1959 said:

The 142 and the ex Lima 156 would be great in the RR range because their current, albeit the 142 are rapidly disappearing.  Unfortunately, Hornby keep churning out the 156 in the full fat range.  If Hornby re-release the ex Dapol 150/2 and 155 in the RR range, I think Hornby would have a excellent range to encourage younger modellers into the current railway scene.  But I could be just talking out of my rear end .

 

The ex-Dapol Class 150/2 and 155s are truly awful models, they really dont need re-incarnating again. Having said that, I have often wondered why Hornby dont do the opposite to BR with their Class 153s which is a decent model and converting that back into 155s.

[Hroth]

1 hour ago, GordonC said:

Assuming the Class 110 tooling is still available, there isn't much wrong with that for the Railroad range.

 

Its a big assumption, its been a while since the last run of 110 packs, and there's a high possibility that the tools got trashed with all the others when Hornby pulled out of Margate for the sunnier climes of Sandwich under the previous managements Great Leap Forward....

 

[TravisM]

30 minutes ago, GordonC said:

 

The ex-Dapol Class 150/2 and 155s are truly awful models, they really dont need re-incarnating again. Having said that, I have often wondered why Hornby dont do the opposite to BR with their Class 153s which is a decent model and converting that back into 155s.

I must admit that I’ve never had or operated them as a model and only ever seen the Hornby 155 in WYPTE livery in a shop, and didn’t look that closely.

 

I think Hornby could reverse engineer the 153 into a 155 but that would mean destroying the mould’s, but on the other hand, they could retool the 153 to a higher standard and then use the older 153 tooling to do the 155.  But let’s be honest, Hornby are highly unlikely given they can keep churning out 153’s in vast amounts of liveries as the prototypes move from TOC to TOC. 

[Bert Cheese]

A couple of folorn hopes from me...both classes of only 10 locos and relatively unloved by many?

Steam: Hawksworth GW 15xx Class pannier tank.

Electro-Diesel: BR Class 74, possibly utilizing the recent class 71 tooling as a start...surely it has more use than merely helping kill DJM off?

 

 

 

[Karl]

14 minutes ago, Bert Cheese said:

A couple of folorn hopes from me...both classes of only 10 locos and relatively unloved by many?

Steam: Hawksworth GW 15xx Class pannier tank.

Electro-Diesel: BR Class 74, possibly utilizing the recent class 71 tooling as a start...surely it has more use than merely helping kill DJM off?

 

 

 

Not forlorn with regards to the 15xx, Rapidotrains UK announced those on Tuesday for release in 2022.

[scottrains29]

44 minutes ago, jools1959 said:

I think Hornby could reverse engineer the 153 into a 155 but that would mean destroying the mould’s, but on the other hand, they could retool the 153 to a higher standard and then use the older 153 tooling to do the 155.  But let’s be honest, Hornby are highly unlikely given they can keep churning out 153’s in vast amounts of liveries as the prototypes move from TOC to TOC. 

I wouldn't be surprised if Hornby bring out a 153 in Spotrail livery now they are using them for bikes/luggage/skis. All Scottish models sell well.

[TravisM]

44 minutes ago, scottrains29 said:

I wouldn't be surprised if Hornby bring out a 153 in Spotrail livery now they are using them for bikes/luggage/skis. All Scottish models sell well.

I did mention that in a earlier comment and I agree with you, they’d sell well.

[SomethingTrainLover]

On 07/12/2020 at 04:49, The Black Hat said:

You beat me to it. That's exactly what I was thinking. 

Also I think:

 

J21 or B16 (probably the former)
New tooled Mk. 4 and Mk. 4 DVT
Southern Q-class
Possible A4 style P2

A little bit of defending borders again perhaps.

I definitely think it's time for Hornby to finally take advantage of the design clever tooling the P2 has. The later and rebuilt P2s I do think are in enough demand to warrant it.

[Covkid]

1 hour ago, Bert Cheese said:

A couple of folorn hopes from me...both classes of only 10 locos and relatively unloved by many?

Steam: Hawksworth GW 15xx Class pannier tank.

Electro-Diesel: BR Class 74, possibly utilizing the recent class 71 tooling as a start...surely it has more use than merely helping kill DJM off?

 

 

 

 

Notwithstanding Dave's problems with his company, I never did understand why Hornby didn't produce the 74.  Perhaps I am in the small minority of folk who suffer from the OCD of running electric outline trains without overhead or 3rd rail. This means I would probably have a 74 but not a 71. 

[tomparryharry]

2 hours ago, Bert Cheese said:

A couple of folorn hopes from me...both classes of only 10 locos and relatively unloved by many?

Steam: Hawksworth GW 15xx Class pannier tank.

Electro-Diesel: BR Class 74, possibly utilizing the recent class 71 tooling as a start...surely it has more use than merely helping kill DJM off?

 

 

 

Ahem... Try the Rapido thread....