2021 hopes

[D9020 Nimbus]

Heljan have announced that (class 120) in O but not (yet) in OO. Do they know something we don't?

[TomScrut]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

They are small (ish) trains that mainly run in multiple on big bits of railway.

 

Most people with big layouts would want/need to run 2/3 sets coupled which potentially means a train costing well into four figures.

 

On the other side of the coin, 4/5 23m cars are too big for many smaller layouts and (on the whole) they aren't branch line fodder anyhow.

 

I don't know many collectors, but those I have had contact with are extremely loco-centric.

 

Triple whammy?

 

John

 

1 hour ago, jools1959 said:

 

All depends on if you want it or not.  With most 2, 3 and 4 car multiple units starting at £250 for a basic DC model then add another £100+ if you want it DCC and sound, then getting close to £400 for a 4 car set which isn't unreasonable.  I wish people would stop bellyaching about the price of models as they don't have to take the risk.  Also with more and more models now having to up their game and come up to the same standards as Accurascale and Realtrack, I don't see anyone complaining about handing over £250+ for their superb Class 37's, 55's, 92's, and Class 143's, 144's and 156's?  Also, Hornby's new releases of large steam loco's are now just shy of £200 and the pre-order book is closed for most of them.

 

If you want it, buy it.  If not, shut up!

 

48 minutes ago, jools1959 said:

I was just getting fed up with people complaining about the price without looking at the risks a manufacturer has to carry.  Hornby are re-releasing the 390 Pendolino in the new Avanti livery but the tooling has been payed for, so the only cost is materials, decoration and shipping.

 

It also seems that people are happily prepared to hand over £500 notes for a seven car APT, so to my mind, £400 for a four car set is not unreasonable.

 

 

I think the thing is, the £230+ 2 car DMUs (Bachmann & Realtrack), £300+ 3 car (Bachmann) £350 ish 4 cars (Bachmann) and £500 6 car (Bachmann) are maybe a bit more hifi than necessary?

 

Look at the Hornby 800, I think it is more than adequate detail wise and it is £355 post release discount for 5 cars, far more palatable than a 158 or 117 for £300+ I think!

 

OTOH I am actually willing to pay the aforementioned prices for the units I want. I have a RT 156 on pre order, will probably have a Bachmann Northern 150 and would have a Northern 158 and 170 if they come to pass. I have 2 Azumas on order and would have a TPE 802 as said before. I don't think I am the average customer in that I want units.

[adb968008]

26 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

will probably have a Bachmann Northern 150 and would have a Northern 158 and 170 if they come to pass. I have 2 Azumas on order and would have a TPE 802 as said before. I don't think I am the average customer in that I want units.

Snap !

 

I have the exact same on order. I must not be average either.

 

only reason I've not got a Northern 156 on order, is I have a resprayed one already.

[Dunsignalling]

23 minutes ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

Heljan have announced that (class 120) in O but not (yet) in OO. Do they know something we don't?

I must admit, I was surprised when Heljan announced the 104 in OO rather than the 120, for which they have already done the R&D to produce the 7mm one.

 

Two reasonable interpretations I've thought of (there will be others): [1] they may be in negotiation with a possible commissioner for the 120; or [2] they've got wind of somebody else doing it.

 

John

[fiftyfour fiftyfour]

1 hour ago, jools1959 said:

I was just getting fed up with people complaining about the price without looking at the risks a manufacturer has to carry.  Hornby are re-releasing the 390 Pendolino in the new Avanti livery but the tooling has been payed for, so the only cost is materials, decoration and shipping.

 

It also seems that people are happily prepared to hand over £500 notes for a seven car APT, so to my mind, £400 for a four car set is not unreasonable.

Except that commercially modelling the Avanti livery is now a fools errand; only two trains have received the full livery (c40 sets have just had the driving cars branded), the company is on it's last knockings and the ERMA won't continue after March 2022 as First group has already agreed the escape route so you are looking at a maximum of two trains (in a fleet of 56) carrying it for a maximum of 27 months. They might have been better off doing a Class 390 in the Virgin "flowing silk" white livery, at least that was carried by almost all sets!

[Mike_Walker]

4 minutes ago, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

Except that commercially modelling the Avanti livery is now a fools errand; only two trains have received the full livery (c40 sets have just had the driving cars branded), the company is on it's last knockings and the ERMA won't continue after March 2022 as First group has already agreed the escape route so you are looking at a maximum of two trains (in a fleet of 56) carrying it for a maximum of 27 months. They might have been better off doing a Class 390 in the Virgin "flowing silk" white livery, at least that was carried by almost all sets!

They have only agreed terms to terminate the present franchise agreement (and the SWR one too) and are currently in negotiation with the DfT over new Direct Awards (similar to that already governing GWR for example) so to say "the company is on its last knockings" is premature in the extreme. Similar negotiations are ongoing for all franchises. If DA agreements are not in place then the ERMAs end and the original franchise terms reapply which would be commercial suicide.

[DutyDruid]

2 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

They are small (ish) trains that mainly run in multiple on big bits of railway.

 

Most people with big layouts would want/need to run 2/3 sets coupled which potentially means a train costing well into four figures.

 

On the other side of the coin, 4/5 23m cars are too big for many smaller layouts and (on the whole) they aren't branch line fodder anyhow.

 

Our big Club layout (Soberton) is 33' x 10', 00 with 8' platforms in the station (scale model of a Meon Valley station).  One of the signature train formations is a 10 coach "boat train" with a Merchant Navy in charge; you can guess how long that is!  However, the most common trains are 3-sets and 4-sets, sometimes 2 sets coupled together.  Layouts this size are very much the exception and we are really lucky to be able to do this.

 

The other Club layout that is set in the 50s/60s is Nictun Borrud (12' scenic + 4' FY - branch terminus) where we just about have room for a steam hauled 2-set.  A trick we use there is to run 2 x 2BILs into the station, either to couple or uncouple.  

 

For both layouts we did (last year) a review of the insurance value and (particularly for Soberton) we gulped.  So yes, you're right John, the big units ( in my case 4COR, 5WES et al) do have a very limited appeal/market and for a big layout at an exhibition the insurance value for a layout able to run the big trains is also going to be very off-putting for the organisers.

[surfsup]

50 minutes ago, Mike_Walker said:

They have only agreed terms to terminate the present franchise agreement (and the SWR one too) and are currently in negotiation with the DfT over new Direct Awards (similar to that already governing GWR for example) so to say "the company is on its last knockings" is premature in the extreme. Similar negotiations are ongoing for all franchises. If DA agreements are not in place then the ERMAs end and the original franchise terms reapply which would be commercial suicide.

 

Indeed, I would be surprised not to see the continuing of the rolling out of the Avanti brand under the DA as we have seen with other franchises (Repaints and branding continuing on GWR & South Eastern for example). 

[SD85]

When it comes to EMUs the absolute elephant in the room is the lack of a 4-CIG. If you model the Brighton line or indeed anywhere in Surrey, South London or Sussex between the mid 1960s and the early 2000s then one of these units is an absolute necessity IMO.

[spackz]

4 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

I must admit, I was surprised when Heljan announced the 104 in OO rather than the 120, for which they have already done the R&D to produce the 7mm one.

 

Two reasonable interpretations I've thought of (there will be others): [1] they may be in negotiation with a possible commissioner for the 120; or [2] they've got wind of somebody else doing it.

 

John

I'm pretty sure Heljan have binned off plans to do the class 120 in O now. Lack of info and drawings rings a bell. Sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong though.

 

It's a shame as I would have liked an OO gauge one as well.

[DutyDruid]

48 minutes ago, SD85 said:

When it comes to EMUs the absolute elephant in the room is the lack of a 4-CIG. If you model the Brighton line or indeed anywhere in Surrey, South London or Sussex between the mid 1960s and the early 2000s then one of these units is an absolute necessity IMO.

And both routes WAT -> PHM

 

There is (was) a Southern Pride kit of a CIG but as stated further up the thread, despite being advertised that is not really an option any more.  In fact, I have just noticed on their site that stocks of Mk1 roofs are nearly exhausted so that effectively kills off any more of these excecllent kits

[TravisM]

1 hour ago, spackz said:

I'm pretty sure Heljan have binned off plans to do the class 120 in O now. Lack of info and drawings rings a bell. Sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong though.

 

It's a shame as I would have liked an OO gauge one as well.

Funnily enough, I heard that as well, though not regarding Heljan.  As only a single trailer car exists, no DM’s and as spackz said, there’s a lack of detailed information and drawings.

[GordonC]

10 hours ago, jools1959 said:

Funnily enough, I heard that as well, though not regarding Heljan.  As only a single trailer car exists, no DM’s and as spackz said, there’s a lack of detailed information and drawings.

 

That would be disappointing if they do. I wonder whether the non-corridor end of the Class 126 at Bo'ness would give them any useful information

[The Black Hat]

19 hours ago, TomScrut said:

I think the thing is, the £230+ 2 car DMUs (Bachmann & Realtrack), £300+ 3 car (Bachmann) £350 ish 4 cars (Bachmann) and £500 6 car (Bachmann) are maybe a bit more hifi than necessary?

 

Look at the Hornby 800, I think it is more than adequate detail wise and it is £355 post release discount for 5 cars, far more palatable than a 158 or 117 for £300+ I think!

 

OTOH I am actually willing to pay the aforementioned prices for the units I want. I have a RT 156 on pre order, will probably have a Bachmann Northern 150 and would have a Northern 158 and 170 if they come to pass. I have 2 Azumas on order and would have a TPE 802 as said before. I don't think I am the average customer in that I want units.

 

However, then your into the issue of value for monday. The Realtrack 156 has a load of features and lighting set up that isnt on the new Bachmann 158. Add sound option for Realtrack with 2 decoders and speakers and the value for money of the Realtrack 156 is much better than Bachmann which includes just one and a very basic speaker. 

Bachmann I think know that people will buy as demand is there for their models, it drives people to buy one to match their stock and they will save that bit more to get it. The price rises in things like the class 150 and some first gen units as well as other items in Bachmann catalogue point to maximising income and profit taking (which you can't blame them for). What then happens is they are happy to drop prices to put their model under the likes of others such as the Hattons 66 and the soon to be Accurscale range - but still turn that profit they are looking for. 

While companies need to be profitable and maintain the income needed to reinvest Bachmann sometimes can really push the boundry - but in fairness again are they the only one. Sometimes by comparison Hornbys models are basic and the reuse of older tooling from elsewhere put into a red box can drive sales as they are seen as bargains.  Yet they would still be able to generate the profit by charing a price for a basic model while Bachman charge a lot for what they say is hi-fi yet isnt as much as some other examples on the market. Its up to the buyer to choose what they want and work out whether the value for money is there. Sometimes it is, sometimes we think it is, but the latter is what the companies want so that we buy more. Thing is - if they have that model that we want, then we are very likely to anyway. 

[Dick Turpin]

9 minutes ago, The Black Hat said:

 

However, then your into the issue of value for monday. 

 

Yeah, my money's pretty much all spent by midweek as well. 

[TomScrut]

37 minutes ago, The Black Hat said:

However

 

Exactly. All I was suggesting is if companies are frightened of making a £400+ 3 or 4 car MU why not make is slightly simpler and cheaper? It's not like the difference will be putting a Hornby 156 next to a Realtrack one!

 

Thats why I compared the more expensive 2 car and the like MUs Vs Hornby's 800 offering because I feel it does strike a good point. The APT looks like it will do the same. And forgetting the 800/APT for a minute, you can buy a 6 car 395 for around £200, which whilst not amazing is very good for that price.

 

I wasn't trying to suggest a Bachmann is better or worse than Realtrack, I have a Realtrack on order and would order a 2 or 3 car Northern bubble 158 in an instant from Bachmann.

[No Decorum]

On 15/12/2020 at 22:24, adb968008 said:

About as much as what happened before the demise.

0.

 

if you want a class 74, I reccomend Silverfox.

 

£150 painted, rtr on a trimmed Hornby class 90 chassis but with class 74 side frames / underbody chassis

or £47.50 for all the bits and do it yourself, and source your own chassis.

 

http://silverfoxmodels.co.uk/class-74-bo-bo-british-rail-crewe-new-2/

 

I’d like one. If only the big boys would slacken off for a month! 

[No Decorum]

On 16/12/2020 at 07:01, Neal Ball said:

I’ve thought Hornby would have done the Saint before, I wonder why they haven’t.

 

As a wild card.... maybe Hornby will announce “The Great Bear” the Great Westerns only pacific.... they do after all like big locos.

 

Like everyone else, I’m blinkered but the Saint seems an obvious gap. The best time to do it would have been when the rebuild was first steamed. Modelu could have produced Pru Leith. 

 

If Hornby is prepared to tackle the Hush Hush and the rebuilt version and the Thompson pacifics, The Great Bear is at least a possibility.

[TravisM]

11 minutes ago, No Decorum said:

I’d like one. If only the big boys would slacken off for a month! 

 

What's a Union Pacific 4-8-8-4 "big boy" got to do with it 

[No Decorum]

Just now, jools1959 said:

 

What's a Union Pacific 4-8-8-4 "big boy" got to do with it 

Lower case “Bs”. 

[Dunsignalling]

3 hours ago, TomScrut said:

 

Exactly. All I was suggesting is if companies are frightened of making a £400+ 3 or 4 car MU why not make is slightly simpler and cheaper? It's not like the difference will be putting a Hornby 156 next to a Realtrack one!

 

The market actually DOES want £400 4-car multiple units, the problem is that half the market wants them for £200!

 

John

 

Edited December 17, 2020 by Dunsignalling

[MikeParkin65]

1 hour ago, No Decorum said:

Like everyone else, I’m blinkered but the Saint seems an obvious gap. The best time to do it would have been when the rebuild was first steamed. Modelu could have produced Pru Leith. 

 

If Hornby is prepared to tackle the Hush Hush and the rebuilt version and the Thompson pacifics, The Great Bear is at least a possibility.

Isn't the Hawksworth County a more obvious gap than the Saint? 

[Rockalaucher101]

2 minutes ago, MikeParkin65 said:

Isn't the Hawksworth County a more obvious gap than the Saint? 

Yes and No...

We've had the county more recently than we've had a saint in RTR. I don't know we've ever had a saint in RTR, correct me if I'm wrong

[Dunsignalling]

1 minute ago, Rockalaucher101 said:

Yes and No...

We've had the county more recently than we've had a saint in RTR. I don't know we've ever had a saint in RTR, correct me if I'm wrong

We have, but long ago when the Hornby name was hyphenated with Tri-ang's.

 

Definitely wouldn't cut the mustard nowadays.

 

John

[MikeParkin65]

2 minutes ago, Rockalaucher101 said:

Yes and No...

We've had the county more recently than we've had a saint in RTR. I don't know we've ever had a saint in RTR, correct me if I'm wrong

I think we've had a Saint to 'Triang standards' derived from the old Hall. But the ex Dapol County to my eyes looks very little like a real Hawksworth County and the prototype fitting into the seemingly very popular BR steam era I think there is a ready market for a model to current standards. I think we'd both buy 'County of Worcestershire'