2021 hopes

[InterCitySpud]

4 hours ago, 66738 said:

I agree about the MK 2B/C coaches. They are a major gap in the market, and I for one would like some Blue/Grey and some NSE. But I think I’d like Bachmann to do them instead of Hornby. At least Bachmann would get the colours correct, so they could run and look good with the 2A’s.
I’ve not much faith at the moment in Hornby’s colour variations. The RB for example. What’s that blue all about!? 
66738

By all the comments I have read, this years hopes for Hornby should include choosing a more prototypical rail blue.

 

Absolutely. MK 2 b/c to sit well with the current MK2a and new air con releases, in some cases even MK3a’s, its almost impossible to represent full rakes in many sectors from early inter-city to NSE without including them somewhere. If you own a class 50 or 45 for example or plan on a new Heljan 86 it needs some of them somewhere!

 

On the age and what you want to model debate, FWIW I’ve unfortunately just hit 50 but have absolutely zero interest in modelling anything steam derived and almost as less interest in modern privatised stuff, for me, only blue or blue grey with a little sprinkling of intercity livery if in the mood.

 

I’ve also heaps of time and reasonable income to throw at the hobby so I hope that helps sway any  manufacturers reading this. Go 80’s!!

[Dunsignalling]

6 hours ago, wombatofludham said:

I've said this before, so I'll say it again.  There is a danger Hornby will increasingly be seen as irrelevant by any post steam modellers if they don't start to up their game.  Heljan and Bachmann are really going for the D&E market, and whilst Bachmann sometimes rightly get criticised for tardiness, model fidelity and pricing, there's no doubt they've committed serious investment, at a time they are under financial pressure, to satisfying the market.  Then there are the newbies - people like Accurascale have launched with primarily D&E projects, and although they have said they will do some water boilers, the fact they started with D&E, at the point where the business needs to have some certainty of sales to make sure the company generates income to survive, suggests that others are seeing the market shift away from steam towards D&E.  That Hornby is so heavily invested in steam must be a concern long term, and whilst steam will never disappear as a modelling subject, the fact I'm the only one in my modelling fraternity planning a steam themed layout (out of over half a dozen active modellers) must suggest the hard nosed business decisions of a lot of of Hornby's competitors are noticing a similar trend.

When Hornby do D&E they can do a good job, but then louse it up with lackadaisical quality control and poor decision making - why go to all the expense of tooling up very nice HST power cars then stick with a mix of own design and 1980s Lima Mk3 toolings?  Would the steam fans be happy with a retooled Coronation but only the Railroad LMS coaches to pull?  Why two types of superdetail LNER suburbans but only ex Lima and 1980s Hornby design DMUs?  As for the 50 shades of Pullman compared to the Mk2e with a fictional solebar (the visible panty line) and you can begin to see why those of us who can look beyond the rose-tinted spectacle plates of the steam obsessives fell Hornby are at best lacklustre in the post steam market, or at worst indifferent.  Which will come to bite them very squarely on the backside, very soon.

To put it another way, though, Hornby have very little opposition in their traditional core area of big, named and (usually) green steam locos, and only Bachmann with the coaches to go with them.

 

How many more times they can revisit the well, particularly with the A4 and A3,⁰ which may be starting to rely on the "All the locos in all the liveries" fanatics for any sales growth by now,  is debatable. Maybe the current near-completion of large LNER passenger loco coverage is an indication that "Peak Gresley" has passed? 

 

However, if Hornby really saw the steam market declining overall, they'd be rebalancing away from it. Any change in the relative proportions of steam vs non-steam announcements tomorrow will therefore be interesting.

 

Hornby are undoubtedly making hay while the sun shines, but I'm not entirely sure if that applies solely to steam era models or their perception of how the future overall size of the r-t-r market may develop.

 

I hope not, but it's possible that all the new entrants may reflect a move towards fewer people spending rather more per head than is currently  the case.

 

John

Edited January 4, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[Chris56057]

19 hours ago, rob D2 said:

Ooh, I didn’t realise “ 2021 hopes “ was just a thin cover for a wish list .

 

Hornby - just release more stuff with the good tools you have . Class 56 large logo, transrail. Class 60 transrail without sound , class 31 blue with headcode box .....whilst at it , get rid of 8 pin DCC sockets.  
 

Can’t see the old 58 coming back , just so they have something to put a TTS in - egg before chicken . And even the decent version by Heljan , was of such great sales power to them , they sub leased it to EFE , thus washing their hands .

Completely agree with all of this - just more 56's and 60's please. Always the focus on the steam era stuff, yet neglecting good models which will sell. 

[InterCitySpud]

52 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

However, if Hornby really saw the steam market declining overall, they'd be rebalancing away from it. Any change in the relative proportions of steam vs non-steam announcements tomorrow will therefore be interesting.

I'm sure most manufacturers meet in dark rooms to discuss the same matters regularly!

 

Of all the amazing steam image layouts I drool over, from a safe distance, most of them are set from the 1920s to pre Beeching. This was obviously during the boom times for British railways and when almost every village had a station! Of course very evocative and gives many options to model with so many companies, liveries etc. but only a relatively short period in time.

 

However if you look at the ACs, for example they have been plying their trade since the wires went up properly in the 1960s with many still around today. They have hauled almost everything in almost every livery from late LMS stock to MK3s. Same to a certain extent for the 45's, 47's 50's. How many steam locos stayed in full service for 30 years or longer?

 

This is why I model TOPs period, once you have, for example a full blue grey HST set you can be anywhere you want, you can build Cornwall, the Midlands or the North and can run one. I often gaze in wonder at those fantastic steam based layouts mischievously wishing to see a full seven coach screaming Paxman set whizz past "Little Twee" village station (on a diversion of course!)

 

This is a huge period of time for people to get interested in Diesel or Electric modelling, almost 60 years now so I hope they don't overlook us too much!

[Jammy2305]

Streamlined B17 to compliment the P2 and the Hush-Hush for "Oddball LNER streamliners" 

[gc4946]

My final speculations before Hornby's announcement:

 

HST in Midland blue livery

TfW driving trailer and class 67

Last run of Mk4s in TfW livery before retirement of the tooling

Last run of Pacers in Northern and TfW liveries before retirement of the tooling

 

and finally, as Hornby often produce oddball locos, either a Turbomotive or LNER V4

 

 

 

Edited January 4, 2021 by gc4946

[phil-b259]

11 hours ago, TomScrut said:

 

Where? Does "established" mean somebody on the forum has said it or the collective reasoning is there, or that it has been said by somebody from Hornby? I aren't trying to be argumentative but what you have said is a statement of fact, which happens a lot on here when it isn't actually fact.

 

 

Surely given the similarities they'd get the same people to do the 810 as do the 800? I wasn't thinking for a minute tooling would be getting passed around, (and I am well aware of different factories making different products) but that it would be the same people making it given they are a very similar item and therefore a load of work is removed from it even in terms of internal factory manufacturing and quality process. i.e. more of a tooling mod (adding some tooling to a suite of tooling) rather than a ground up new model.

 

I cannot give you a specific statement - but over the years there have been many comments to that effect by people very close to the manufacturers on here where they say sharing of tooling doesn't happen.

 

It also makes perfect business sense when you remember that Hornby etc are not manufacturers in the traditional sense. Yes they design the models, but the building of them is contracted out to a multidue of Chinese subcontractors all working individually and for whom Hornby is one of many companies seeking to use their factory slots.

 

Yes, I accept when everything Hornby made came out of their own Margate factory then sharing the tooling across multiple models did quite likely happen, it was easy to do and saved money. These days sharing tooling means it has to be shipped between multiple factories, increasing the risk of damage and also prevents its use in two places at once.

 

Ultimately you need to forget what RTR model railways may have done before the year 2000 as far as production goes.

[TomScrut]

9 hours ago, mdvle said:

You need a new body, a new nose, a new underframe, new interiors - which essentially is 90% of the model

 

90% of the plastic but not 90% of the moulds. Whilst bigger moulds are more expensive there are a lot of smaller detail parts that can't just be forgotten when talking about this. TBH though I'd not be buying one if it came out so I don't really care. I just don't think it would be back to square one.

 

9 hours ago, dogbox321 said:

When I spoke to Drax, they said that it was a one run job and would not permit it to be done again.  (I asked before parting with £85 per wagon!)  I believe Drax also own the tooling.  With the newer Powerhouse liveries that may have scope.....

 

However my main thought would be that with Rails/Revolution doing an N gauge version - then people are banking on a new OO gauge one.

 

If the market is there (which I'd say it is based on the fact it is seen as being viable in N, and they go for about £150 apiece on eBay) why would they just sit there not doing any more? Just sounds weird to me.

 

 

[TomScrut]

42 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

I cannot give you a specific statement - but over the years there have been many comments to that effect by people very close to the manufacturers on here where they say sharing of tooling doesn't happen.

 

It also makes perfect business sense when you remember that Hornby etc are not manufacturers in the traditional sense. Yes they design the models, but the building of them is contracted out to a multidue of Chinese subcontractors all working individually and for whom Hornby is one of many companies seeking to use their factory slots.

 

Yes, but I was more thinking that they'd be adding some moulds to a suite of tooling for a group of almost identical products. I doubt that the odd 800/810 run not being able to happen simultaneously is going to screw Hornby's plans up.

[GordonC]

9 hours ago, 60800 said:

One suggestion which I haven't seen is a Mk2F RFB - Yes I know Bachmann do one, but it's expensive for a coach, sits too high and doesn't match the colour of the cheaper Hornby stock. Honestly the gap between bogie and body on the Bachmann RFB is ridiculous, and I suspect that thanks to the lighting connections it can't be lowered.

 

I'll save my £60 and see if Hornby do one this year, fingers crossed. 

 

Cheers,

  60800

 

Edit: To 66738's comment above - the Hornby livery may be a bit off, but when the coaches are half the price (and can be found at nearly a third of the price in places), I'll take the slightly dodgy blue. I'm building up a rake of the Burton based Mk.2 stock for BR blue hauled railtour duties from the Hornby F's and it's going to cost me a shade under £190 for a six car rake (if Hornby do the RFB) - the same in Bachmann stock would sit around £340

 

Another way of looking at how pricing has gone is I can pick up a six car rake for the same cost as the express loco to haul it, which.... Isn't too bad really. I remember the days of £20 Mk.1 coaches. Should have bought more 

 

There's a reason the Bachmann Mk2F RFB colours dont match the Hornby ones - the Bachmann ones are correct.

[stewartingram]

I recall SK coming up with the statement that if they make the tools for a loco type, then those tools stay with that loco. If another loco is designed, that has, for example, the same (prototype) tender design, then their model would have new tooling for that tender.

[The Stationmaster]

8 minutes ago, stewartingram said:

I recall SK coming up with the statement that if they make the tools for a loco type, then those tools stay with that loco. If another loco is designed, that has, for example, the same (prototype) tender design, then their model would have new tooling for that tender.

Yes - that seems to have been what has happened with GW locos where the same type of tender has been tooled mot re than once for different locos.  So no doubt Hornby are correct in what they say and their is a set of tooling specific for each model.

 

But the practicalities of manufacture in an area where quite a number of factories are near to each other and the people who run those factories regularly talk to each other etc does sometimes mean that they 'help' each other with work although whether that extends beyond moulding to assembly work I wouldn't know.

 

In terms of what Hornby offers to the market place and how that impacts the balance (prototype period wise) of what they make is basically their commercial  business and they - rather than us - will know how successful certain models are or aren't and they will also know what is eating up expensive warehouse space because it hasn't sold (well i hope they do).  This must obviously influence what they offer from new tooling every year hence my own opinons about what is likely to emerge this year.  Working on the basis of recent years I would be surprise if there is not a new 'big' steam outline model and re-liveries for some existing diesel & electric models plus that 'something nobody expected'.    Nostalgia, even what amounts to invented nostalgia when it comes to the original W1.  seems to serve them well at the moment.

 

But above all we need to remember that they operate in a whole range of model railway markets.  Would it make sense for them to compete in the 'all bells & whistles ' area of - say - modern wagons when others are already there and Hornby could simply do decent re-liveries on old tooling and go in at a lower price point?   Maybe a bit different with 'modern' hauled coaching stock where there is an obvious gap in their range which it would make sense to fill - so maybe they will?

 

Have they bottomed out on small industrial locos I wonder when I hear from retailers that some are now selling very slowly?  We shall see but i suspect there might not be enough 'razzamatazz' in announcing another one just yet. 

[TomScrut]

31 minutes ago, stewartingram said:

I recall SK coming up with the statement that if they make the tools for a loco type, then those tools stay with that loco. If another loco is designed, that has, for example, the same (prototype) tender design, then their model would have new tooling for that tender.

 

I do think that is significantly different to the 8XX example being discussed though. Having 2 near identical units have some commonality is different to 2 completely different locos sharing a tender. You'd end up with potentially dozens of different locos sharing the same tender mould which would complicate things massively in comparison to what I am talking about which would probably be one or two runs a year. Anyway given nobody has so far convinced me and I aren't convincing any of you I don't see the point in discussing it further.

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, TomScrut said:

 

Yes, but I was more thinking that they'd be adding some moulds to a suite of tooling for a group of almost identical products. I doubt that the odd 800/810 run not being able to happen simultaneously is going to screw Hornby's plans up.

If one subclass  is significantly different from the rest, and only carries a single livery, it's unlikely to be offered at all until all the ones that can be covered with the basic tooling have been done.

 

 The 810 cars being shorter, though, might make it attractive for Railroad as a generic 8xx, in all the liveries the real thing doesn't carry,  too!

 

John

Edited January 4, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[60800]

45 minutes ago, GordonC said:

 

There's a reason the Bachmann Mk2F RFB colours dont match the Hornby ones - the Bachmann ones are correct.

 

This had already been pointed out (besides, I already knew anyway), but the ride height of the Bachmann is more of an issue for me than slightly off paint, coupled with the price difference of course. 

 

The Hornby Mk2F in blue grey doesn't even match their own Mk2E in the same livery, so I'm stuck with exclusively using Hornby F's if I don't want to break the bank. 

 

Cheers,

  60800

[66738]

9 hours ago, 60800 said:

Edit: To 66738's comment above - the Hornby livery may be a bit off, but when the coaches are half the price (and can be found at nearly a third of the price in places), I'll take the slightly dodgy blue. I'm building up a rake of the Burton based Mk.2 stock for BR blue hauled railtour duties from the Hornby F's and it's going to cost me a shade under £190 for a six car rake (if Hornby do the RFB) - the same in Bachmann stock would sit around £340

 

Another way of looking at how pricing has gone is I can pick up a six car rake for the same cost as the express loco to haul it, which.... Isn't too bad really. I remember the days of £20 Mk.1 coaches. Should have bought more 

Edited 9 hours ago by 60800

I absolutely take your point on price 60800. Hornby coaches are a lot easier on the wallet.
But for me, the colours have to be right, even if it costs that bit more. 

I had a full rake of the early Bachmann Blue and Greys 2A’s, but after I had bought a full rake of the newer correct Blue shade ones including Kernow double packs NSE flashes and Scotrail, I sold the earlier ones on, as side by side, it highlighted the Blue wasn’t quite right on them. 
I want Bachmann to do the 2B/C as I’m confident the Blue would be bang on compared with their 2A’s. They would look correct together as a mixed rake. I’d be worried a Hornby 2B would stand out like a sore thumb. I couldn’t accept that.
We have opposing views on what we accept, but that is what is so good about forums and indeed individuals. Wouldn’t it be a boring world if we all thought alike! 

66738
 

[Pint of Adnams]

22 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

 

I do think that is significantly different to the 8XX example being discussed though. Having 2 near identical units have some commonality is different to 2 completely different locos sharing a tender. You'd end up with potentially dozens of different locos sharing the same tender mould which would complicate things massively in comparison to what I am talking about which would probably be one or two runs a year. Anyway given nobody has so far convinced me and I aren't convincing any of you I don't see the point in discussing it further.

ISTR that statement by SK was made in the light of earlier experiences with moulds being retained by the factory and the subsequent decision to distribute manufacture across a number of factories. To introduce a new locomotive without ensuring that the corresponding tender would be available and would match it in livery finish would be foolhardy. That risk would be further compounded in the event of reruns or variants.

[fiftyfour fiftyfour]

11 hours ago, adb968008 said:

EMR (ex-LNER) HST sets could be easy pickings.

 

Also extends sales of LNER mk3’s and gives excuse to re-run EMT livery mk3’s which are rare as anything.

 

Castle HSTs could be another.

cant be many more turns of the handle left in HSTs now...everything's done.

Hmm. "Everything's done" regarding HSTs. The InterCity Executive had one release about 12 years ago and is now very scarce and goes for silly money when one comes up. INTERCITY Swallow covers over a decade slap bang through my era and all we have had power car wise is one Eastern Region pair (none of which have appeared on eBay for at least two years now), then another Eastern Region pair ONLY available digital with sound. And we have had NOTHING, not one of either Great Western Trains "Merlin", First Great Western "Superkings/Fag-pack" or any of the First Great Western "Barbie" bus group style livery the latter of which lasted 7 years in service.

[60800]

18 minutes ago, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

And we have had NOTHING, not one of either Great Western Trains "Merlin", First Great Western "Superkings/Fag-pack" or any of the First Great Western "Barbie" bus group style livery the latter of which lasted 7 years in service.

 

I wouldn't mind a twin pack of a beat up 43002 and 43003 in Barbie livery complete with 253001 set number, with a Valenta TTS chip of course

 

Midland Mainline 'Rio' sets are what are really missing though.

 

Cheers,

 60800

Edited January 4, 2021 by 60800

[RichardT]

12 hours ago, wombatofludham said:

I've said this before, so I'll say it again.  There is a danger Hornby will increasingly be seen as irrelevant by any post steam modellers...

 

And...?  I model in N, so I already see Hornby as completely irrelevant to me.  Does that matter to Hornby?

 

I wish they weren’t irrelevant - never mind all the froth about them

reviving TT, why are they ignoring a large existing UK market in another scale that’s right on their doorstep? - but the reality is that, for the moment, they don’t want my money.  I assume they have identified a profitable niche in mass market 00 steam loco models, leaving highly detailed limited run diesel models to small newcomer firms.  
 

(And, by the way, any chance that we could all drop the childish “kettles” and similar epithets re steam locos?)

best

Richard T 

Edited January 4, 2021 by RichardT
Messed up multiple quotes so removed them.

[60800]

4 minutes ago, RichardT said:

Isn’t this the exact same issue that’s faced anyone for decades who is modelling pre-BR steam using rtr models issued only in BR livery?  Isn’t there a name for the solution - something like “doing some modelling instead of just opening boxes” and “practice”?  Sorry, but (again from the perspective of a 2mm modeller) the sense of entitlement of the 00 world re rtr is staggering.

 

Not really sure where to go with this, as I don't see any entitlement from 'OO' modellers, even on here where the majority of us are massed. We expect that items are correct for the prices we pay and there is nothing wrong with that at all. Plenty of people on here, myself included, repaint locos and enjoy doing it. 

 

If I was that fussed I'd paint a pair of GBRF 50's myself but as it so happens I'm not bothered. Why paying for a repainted item though from somewhere such as rainbow railways is considered entitlement is beyond me - if you have the cash and want the model to be right or different to OOB / RTR finishes but cannot do the job yourself, what is wrong with paying for it? 

 

Cheers,

  60800

[GreenGiraffe22]

16 minutes ago, RichardT said:

 

 

(And, by the way, any chance that we could all drop the childish “kettles” and similar epithets re steam locos?)

best

Richard T 

 

Yes, I don't quite understand why diesel & electric modellers are so derogatory towards steam engines...? Big talk for fans of oblongs on wheels.

 

For as long as there is interest in history, there will be interest in steam engines. 

[MarkSG]

2 minutes ago, GreenGiraffe22 said:

 

Yes, I don't quite understand why diesel & electric modellers are so derogatory towards steam engines...? Big talk for fans of oblongs on wheels.

 

For as long as there is interest in history, there will be interest in steam engines. 

 

I don't hugely object to it; for me it falls into much the same kind of affectionate pejorative as "round-roundy" or "shunting plank". Maybe we just need a concise equivalent for diesel and electric locos. Maybe "chugboxes" for the former, and "zapboxes" for the latter

[rob D2]

1 hour ago, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

Hmm. "Everything's done" regarding HSTs. The InterCity Executive had one release about 12 years ago and is now very scarce and goes for silly money when one comes up. INTERCITY Swallow covers over a decade slap bang through my era and all we have had power car wise is one Eastern Region pair (none of which have appeared on eBay for at least two years now), then another Eastern Region pair ONLY available digital with sound. And we have had NOTHING, not one of either Great Western Trains "Merlin", First Great Western "Superkings/Fag-pack" or any of the First Great Western "Barbie" bus group style livery the latter of which lasted 7 years in service.

Very true,  but I wonder if the Hornby drip feed super slow supply has missed the boat entirely for the merlin scheme - you have to be pretty old to remember it ( like me ) and it lasted for about a nano second, so I can’t really see them doing it .

Edited January 4, 2021 by rob D2

[TomScrut]

2 hours ago, RichardT said:

And...?  I model in N, so I already see Hornby as completely irrelevant to me.  Does that matter to Hornby?

 

But yet you're here commenting so it is surely relevant somehow to you?

 

2 hours ago, RichardT said:

why are they ignoring a large existing UK market in another scale that’s right on their doorstep? - but the reality is that, for the moment, they don’t want my money

 

I expect that penetrating the market might be difficult, especially given the thoughts of some people (wrongly in some cases, rightly in others) about Hornby being inferior to the alternatives (probably most famously Bachmann) would probably make it harder in N where the market I expect will be more serious model railway enthusiast and less "I want to buy my child a train set" which regardless of us lot on here is probably a big chunk of Hornby's financial interest.

 

2 hours ago, RichardT said:

(And, by the way, any chance that we could all drop the childish “kettles” and similar epithets re steam locos?)

 

That will probably end the same time people stop sniping at "box openers".

 

I love steam engines but I do find the "kettle" term amusing, I don't see it as derogatory really but then I don't also take it personally as I aren't a steam engine.

 

1 hour ago, MarkSG said:

I don't hugely object to it; for me it falls into much the same kind of affectionate pejorative as "round-roundy" or "shunting plank". Maybe we just need a concise equivalent for diesel and electric locos. Maybe "chugboxes" for the former, and "zapboxes" for the latter

 

The funny thing I think is how if a "duff" goes out on the mainline now the amount of froth it gets from the spotting community, which has given an ironic twist to it's name.

Edited January 4, 2021 by TomScrut