Adding operational interest to a steam engine shed layout.

[Yan]

Help from members with knowledge of Steam shed operational issues would be gratefully received.

 

I’m currently planning my next project, a 1950s-62 BR(WR) engine shed. The one thing that I’m trying to avoid is that it will turn into a layout where  locos move about with little purpose apart from coaling turning and going on shed. So thoughts are;

1. There will be a timetable that the shed locos are rostered
2. There will be visiting locos allocated within the timetable

 

But…  I’d like to take it a step further and create a card system that will try to represent some of the day to day issues that a shed foreman might face. I’m thinking that when a loco arrives on shed a card is drawn with an outcome for that loco. Two stacks of cards one for home shed locos one for visiting locos. Cards with outcomes along the lines of:

Home Locos

1. Loco in good condition – continues with roster schedule
2. Fire in poor condition (fire needs dropping)
3. Loco reached mileage allowance (Swindon needs notifying)
4. Loco has hot big end
5. Loco requires boiler washout – (off roster for 2 days)
6. Brick arch unstable –  (off roster for ?? days)
7. Blocked sanding box

Visiting Locos

1. Loco in good condition – continues with roster schedule
2. Fire in poor condition (fire needs dropping delay in being available ?? hours)
3. Loco has hot big end
4. Blocked sanding box
5. Late arrival so misses return working – This is a good loco an attempt will be made to keep it. (roll D6 for number of weeks before home shed demands its return)
6. Late arrival so misses return working - This is a poor loco so will be returned on first available working to home shed.

 

My knowledge of day to day issues is limited and would appreciate ideas that I might include that would give a shed foreman a headache.

Many thanks in anticipation

Ian

[The Johnster]

Your ‘home’ locos need to be taken out of service every 10 working days for at least two working days for boiler washout.  There is a very good British Railways film called ‘Wash and Brush Up which explains this procedure.  
 

 

[DCB]

There are books on the subject, I have one called "Organised Chaos" about the Somerset and Dorset Bath Depot, but I don't know the author or where it is.  its quite late, like 1963 ish

There were not that many failures to be fair, much of it was borrowing locos to cover maintenance or failures.

Some depots would see a lot of visiting locos from a lot of different depots but equally visiting locos often turned at the station, coal was dragged forward, water taken  and off it went again without visiting a depot at all,

There were duties where a loco would leave on day one and return on day three, needing three locos minimum for the duty.  

I wouldn't use your cards, but a loco could easily fail or have to be restricted to goods work for flats on the tyres from skidding on wet rails working freight, a real problem for mixed passenger and freight rosters many locos worked equally brake blocks wore rapidly and needed replacing or adjusting,  Brick arches could collapse, 9Fs seemed addicted to it, steam leaks from mud hole gaskets and pipes, blocked injector feeds, failed injectors all panic stations and frantic work by fitters to get the loco fixed and back in traffic, because a loco could not be just started up and driven away, six hours would be a ball park from cold, so if the loco for the 10.10 failed with injector trouble at 8.30 you had better hope the one for the 11.30 could be some how prepared for the 10.10 even if it was  not really suitable, or maybe just turn round  an incoming loco water coal oil ridiculously fast and mess its planned roster up completely,   The fire dropping, planned maintenance should be pre planned not random.

[Yan]

Thank you both for the responses.

 

I've googled the book you mentioned David and found it on several sites. It is by Brian Macdermott and sounds an interesting read so ordered a copy which should be with me next week.

 

I've also found the Wash and Brush Up video on YouTube but not had chance to watch it yet.

 

I'll keep thinking and planing as I'd like to be able to put myself in the shoes of a shed foreman when operating the layout. If possible this should add a different dimension to operating sessions.

 

Thanks again for your responses.

 

Just for interest I've attached below is my first attempt at the track plan. Only the first as I'm not overly happy with it, would like to include a mainline with access to the shed roads. So currently working on other options.

Edited December 6, 2020 by Yan

[Golden Eagle]

Going through a similar design process myself at the moment. One thing that leaps out at me - how do you move the coal wagons from the storage sidings to the coaling stage? If the shunting locomotive need to push the full wagons up the ramp from the left, how will it get round to the other end of the rake to shunt them into/out of the storage sidings?

Edited December 6, 2020 by Golden Eagle

[Compound2632]

I hope you've got a back road for the brakedown crane and mess and tool vans?

 

Plus of course the shed pilot shunting wagons up the ramp to the coal stage - a rather tricky looking manoeuvre given that your coal wagon storage sidings face the opposite way to the stage. [Edit: @Golden Eagle beat me to that one.] Anyway, I'm sceptical that loco coal wagons would be kept standing around; I think a coal stack would be more usual - though I'm not familiar with late WR practice. 

 

May I also suggest that the second access to the turntable should be from the line next to the coaling line, currently a dead-end siding, rather than the rather tight curve off the loco hoist siding? Otherwise it's not clear what purpose that dead end siding serves. 

 

Your enginemen need somewhere to sign on (along with other offices) and a rest room.

 

That's the enginmen watered, but what about the engines? Presumably the coaling stage is a Didcot-type one with water tank over? Where would the water columns go?

Edited December 6, 2020 by Compound2632

[WillCav]

I would keep the coaling stage line joining the turntable as that's how the GWR layouts generally worked. The dead end line adjacent was for ash wagons I think?

 

I would add a trap point at the bottom of the coaling stage hill.

 

Is that a pit by the stage? Wouldn't it get filled up with coal that missed the target?

 

Other than that - it looks GWR in style.

 

Will

Edited December 6, 2020 by WillCav
Adding another comment

[Yan]

I've primarily used Leamington Spa track plan as the starting for the layout and I've also seen many other GWR sheds of similar designs. However like Golden Eagle & Compound2632 I do wonder what the procedure was to move coal wagons between the storage roads and the coaling stage.

 

WillCav is correct in saying the dead-end track adjacent to the coaling stage road was for ash wagons and pointing out I need trap point at the bottom of the coaling stage hill.

 

The coaling stage is the one below and 2 water columns will be installed, one between the two centre roads of the running shed and one next to the return road from the turntable.

 

My understanding of operational sequence is engines arriving would enter the coaling stage road for depositing ash, then coaling, onto the turntable for turning before leaving on the exit road for watering. They would then either if a visiting engine exit the shed for the next turn or run onto on of the 4 shed roads if a home engine or a visiting engine on double home turn.

Edited December 6, 2020 by Yan

[BMacdermott]

Hello Yan

 

Your plans look very good and I'm sure you will make a great job of it.

 

I'm pleased to hear that you are buying the S&D Bluebook Organised Chaos. Although some places may list me as 'the author', I simply 'compiled' the contents on behalf of the S&DRT. I'm sure you will enjoy reading it - I knew (the late) John Barber very well and - of course - Peter Smith is still very much with us!

 

I will PM you an article I wrote some years back which might help. And the link to the You Tube film below, although LMS, might help.

 

All the best

 

Brian

 

 

[tomparryharry]

There's nothing wrong with your card idea, but as others have noted, shed visits weren't a random thing. That said, you can introduce the 'human element' where things can & will go wrong. Think of it like a 'Joker' card, where despite best intentions, situations can & will arise. 

 

San Toi Ohio Rialto! Coaling stage! 

 

Cheers,

Ian. 

Edited December 8, 2020 by tomparryharry
Grr. Forgot a bit!

[BMacdermott]

Hello again Yan

 

Two other books worth getting:

 

Top Shed by P Townend

Scenes from the Past 44: Rowsley Motive Power Depot,

 

Brian

[Yan]

On 07/12/2020 at 08:42, tomparryharry said:

There's nothing wrong with your card idea, but as others have noted, shed visits weren't a random thing. That said, you can introduce the 'human element' where things can & will go wrong. Think of it like a 'Joker' card, where despite best intentions, situations can & will arise. 

 

San Toi Rialto! Coaling stage! 

 

Cheers,

Ian. 

Thanks for your comment Ian

 

Glad you think the card idea is reasonably sound. My thoughts on the card idea is there would be a high percentage of 'Loco OK - continue with roster allocation', but there would be as, you say, jokers in the pack with situations that would give a shed foreman something to thing about. This is really to give the layout extra interest in operation and try to replicate what might have been the day to day issues.

 

Cheers

Ian

[Yan]

On 07/12/2020 at 09:20, BMacdermott said:

Hello again Yan

 

Two other books worth getting:

 

Top Shed by P Townend

Scenes from the Past 44: Rowsley Motive Power Depot,

 

Brian

Thanks Brian

I've added them to my wish list.

 

I've just finished Tony Bardfield's book 'Pannier and Prairies' which has cemented the idea of some sort of curved ball element idea in operating and engine shed layout. Just started on his other book 'When there was Steam'. I find these books of Enginemen & Firemen , giving a vivid picture of a way of life long gone. Unfortunately I was about 5 years too young to appreciate fully what was happening to steam on our railways even though the period holds a fascination over me.

 

A few years ago I read Philip Rundles book 'Tales from the clay country, Working with Steam in Cornwall' must re-read it again as it may also shed so light on what I'm trying to achieve. I have his other book on my wish list.

 

Along with your book, I'm also waiting on delivery of D.J. Fleming's book 'St. Philips March - memories of an engine shed'

 

Thanks again for all the information.

 

Think I soon might have to start a either thread in the layouts forum or a blog.

Ian

 

[tomparryharry]

3 hours ago, Yan said:

Thanks for your comment Ian

 

Glad you think the card idea is reasonably sound. My thoughts on the card idea is there would be a high percentage of 'Loco OK - continue with roster allocation', but there would be as, you say, jokers in the pack with situations that would give a shed foreman something to thing about. This is really to give the layout extra interest in operation and try to replicate what might have been the day to day issues.

 

Cheers

Ian

It's sometimes to remember that a loco shed is a bit more than just a loco shed.  Loco crews book off and on in the vicinity, and don't always are involved in the shed day-to-day. Cardiff is a classic example, where a driver will take an 'up' train to Paddington, then perhaps have relief on the way back down. 

 

I used to operate a friends layout, and very good it was as well. But the platform was devoid of footplate staff, awaiting a changeover. This, despite   the owners own timetable, which indicated a loco change.... "Where's the bench seat on the platform? Don't need one... What! I could never imagine a set of locomen not having a seat whilst they're waiting. Guards as well.... They weren't gods, just ordinary people like you & me. 

 

However, have fun!

[Yan]

1 hour ago, tomparryharry said:

It's sometimes to remember that a loco shed is a bit more than just a loco shed.  Loco crews book off and on in the vicinity, and don't always are involved in the shed day-to-day. Cardiff is a classic example, where a driver will take an 'up' train to Paddington, then perhaps have relief on the way back down. 

 

I used to operate a friends layout, and very good it was as well. But the platform was devoid of footplate staff, awaiting a changeover. This, despite   the owners own timetable, which indicated a loco change.... "Where's the bench seat on the platform? Don't need one... What! I could never imagine a set of locomen not having a seat whilst they're waiting. Guards as well.... They weren't gods, just ordinary people like you & me. 

 

However, have fun!

I've take you comments on board along with Comlound2632 about offices and mess room. I have the plans of Scalemodelscenery's Engine Shed Offices. This will be used as a basis for building at the entrance of the shed for staff to book on and off etc. Also for Loco's to book in or out of the shed.

 

Earlier this week I placed an order with Modelu for their sets of Engine Shed figures. One of Loco crews on shed & one of Shed Staff. Hope I be able to create believable cameos with these figures. As this project progresses i'll be looking their other shed items to try and make a belivable scene.

[tomparryharry]

Your layout thread sounds a very good idea.  I look forward to it!

 

[roythebus]

Locos wouldn't be found to have a hot big end prior to leaving the shed as implied in your first post. Arriving locos may well have a hot big end. Locos being prepared could be failed for things like broken springs, other loose or worn bits underneath. even locos that have been "repaired" or serviced by fitters could be found by the shed prep crew. Arriving locos with known defects would be disposed of and dumped on a "dead" siding for repair.

 

On facilities, don't forget the outside toilets. The one at Top Shed was by all accounts a basic affair with a number of "traps" with half doors as decency screens and a continuous bench seat with suitable size holes. The waste was an open pipe which flowed down to one end. this provided amusement to some who would wait for some grumpy old sod to use the 2nd trap from the lower end. The outlet would be blocked by waste paper or rags and would of course block back to trap 2. Someone would then set fire to some cotton waste soaked in oil and floated down towards trap 2...followed by a hearty yell as occupant of trap 2 ran out...

 

Happy days.

Edited December 8, 2020 by roythebus

[The Stationmaster]

7 hours ago, Yan said:

I've take you comments on board along with Comlound2632 about offices and mess room. I have the plans of Scalemodelscenery's Engine Shed Offices. This will be used as a basis for building at the entrance of the shed for staff to book on and off etc. Also for Loco's to book in or out of the shed.

 

Earlier this week I placed an order with Modelu for their sets of Engine Shed figures. One of Loco crews on shed & one of Shed Staff. Hope I be able to create believable cameos with these figures. As this project progresses i'll be looking their other shed items to try and make a belivable scene.

You need quite a lot of space within adjacent buildings.   

Ogffices for the shed Master, Running Foreman, and Mechanical Foreman or Chargehand, the clerical staff,  and the booking on/off office  the  Time Clerk.   Stores area for the fitters and boilersmith, possibly some limited workshop space for them as well.  Mess  room for enginemen and a messroom for the shed staff and labourers.  Space somewhere for staff lockers, toilets - as mentioned by 'Roythebus', bike shed, and remains of the air raid shelter (or shelters).

[The Johnster]

Depending on your period and the location of the shed relative to the station that relief takes place at, you may want a minibus to take relieving loco crews from the booking on point to the relief locaction.  At Canton, freight trains were relieved alongside the shed on the down relief, while up trains were relieved at the signal on the up relief or no.1 goods, the relieving crew having crossed on the famous footbridge if they could make their way past the spotters...

 

The minibus ran a shuttle service to Cardiff Central station but was not available 24/7 and IIRC all duty diagrams concerned allowed the 25 minutes walking time (via the official route, on the streets)  Ebbw Jc had a minibus as well; this shed was much further away from the station, and IIRC the walking time was 50 minutes. 

 

Both stations had traincrew messrooms (I don't remember one at Bristol T.M., but Bath Rd was a very short distance away), and at Canton there was a separate visiting crews' messroom for some reason. 

[Yan]

On 08/12/2020 at 18:06, roythebus said:

Locos wouldn't be found to have a hot big end prior to leaving the shed as implied in your first post. Arriving locos may well have a hot big end. Locos being prepared could be failed for things like broken springs, other loose or worn bits underneath. even locos that have been "repaired" or serviced by fitters could be found by the shed prep crew. Arriving locos with known defects would be disposed of and dumped on a "dead" siding for repair

@roythebus

I wasn't thinking about drawing cards for locos leaving the shed but you've made a good point and opened my eyes to other challenges for the staff.

 

21 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

You need quite a lot of space within adjacent buildings.   

Ogffices for the shed Master, Running Foreman, and Mechanical Foreman or Chargehand, the clerical staff,  and the booking on/off office  the  Time Clerk.   Stores area for the fitters and boilersmith, possibly some limited workshop space for them as well.  Mess  room for enginemen and a messroom for the shed staff and labourers.  Space somewhere for staff lockers, toilets - as mentioned by 'Roythebus', bike shed, and remains of the air raid shelter (or shelters).

Thanks @The Stationmaster,  @The Johnster The Running Shed I'm building has an office block attached which may be able to house, store, engineering, running shed foreman, mess room for fitters and toilets. The other building I'm proposing hopefully will take care of Shed Master, loco crew and clerical staff. I'll have to investigate further as to number of staff required for size of the engine shed and loco allocation.

 

The period and location I'm working towards will be mid 1950s to 1962 in the far west of Cornwall. Current working on the backstory for the layout and think I've found a reasonable location. I'll probably post this info as the start of the layout thread.

Edited December 9, 2020 by Yan

[The Stationmaster]

The footplate mess room (known on the western as 'the cabin') needs to be near to the Running Foreman's office as does the Time Office - Foremen didn't like to have to walk too far ;).

 

Arriving at the number of staff is going to result in bigger numbers than you are probably expecting.   With a relatively small shed like that you can probably reckon the running side Labourers as 2 Coal Men on a shift, 2 on fire dropping/cleaning on each shift probably plus an extra one at busy times and at least one, probably two others, on general labouring jobs around the shed plus helping the fire droppers.  That adds up to7 or 8 men on a shift.

 

Mechanical etc staff are also fairly easy to work out - a Fitter plus Mate and a Labourer on  each shift, a Boilersmith and Mate probably working on only one shift but possibly two, another labourer for various odd jobs, and a Storeman on each shift.

 

The number of footplatemen needs a fair bit of calculation but don't forget that most of them won't be around the shed at the same time. It is possible to work out the total number from the number of locos and turns they would cover but I wouldn't bother to be honest.  You could probably reasonably work on there being no more than a dozen at the very most being on depot at the same time  with a shed ferry set (Driver + Fireman) and a few others sets either spare or getting underway on their turn of duty,  but there are likely to be alot of lockers!

[Harlequin]

How about a sand furnace?

It would need to be alongside a track, near the engine shed.

 

[Yan]

5 hours ago, Harlequin said:

How about a sand furnace?

It would need to be alongside a track, near the engine shed.

 

From what i've seen sand houses/furnesses were placed in different locstion at different sheds. At the moment the small building between the coaling stage and turntable is, for now, where mine will be.

Cheers

Ian

[Rivercider]

i suppose for added 'fun' you could throw in other operating problems.

Imagine the local permanent way inspector has had his eye on a set of points that needs attention.

The shed foreman has stalled him once, but now he insists he needs a couple of hours to make repairs,

so yiou might have a couple of roads out of use for a shift.

 

cheers 

[Yan]

That sounds like one i could use. Possibly work for Sunday?