Railways and Preservation - Swanage An Environmental Disaster?

[caradoc]

4 hours ago, Northmoor said:

The Talyllyn and Welshpool & Llanfair were both part of the GWR/BR, but the've had to greatly supplement their fleets with industrials and imports, to operate a 20th/21st Century service.

 

Being picky here but the Talyllyn was never part of the GWR or BR. 

 

[Compound2632]

30 minutes ago, caradoc said:

 

Being picky here but the Talyllyn was never part of the GWR or BR. 

 

 

Possibly thinking of the Corris?

[009 micro modeller]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Possibly thinking of the Corris?

 

I think Corris was technically part of BR very briefly as well, though obviously not for as long as the Welshpool line.

 

Technically the museum at Irchester has an ex-BR loco - it operated on a narrow gauge line at a sleeper depot. And the group running Steeple Grange have always emphasised ZM32’s Horwich career.

Edited January 8, 2021 by 009 micro modeller

[Compound2632]

Or, on second thoughts, the Vale of Rheidol.

[009 micro modeller]

9 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Or, on second thoughts, the Vale of Rheidol.

 

Definitely. And am I right in thinking that that was unique amongst ex-BR lines in being transferred to private preservation ownership as both a going concern and a complete railway (if that makes sense)?

 

The other thing the VoR had, unlike the other two, was locos actually built by the GWR, and the long-term continuation of passenger services (iirc the VoR was more passenger-focused than other lines from early on due to the lead mine traffic drying up, while with the Corris takeover in particular (which I understand was a later purchase and not part of the Grouping) the GWR was mainly after the Corris-owned bus services).

[Compound2632]

7 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Definitely. And am I right in thinking that that was unique amongst ex-BR lines in being transferred to private preservation ownership as both a going concern and a complete railway (if that makes sense)?

 

Indeed, I think one could argue that the VoR is not a "heritage" railway; rather, it is a railway that has a continuous history of operation fulfilling its original function as a tourist attraction. A major part of its appeal when we had family holidays in the area in the 1970s was that it was a part of the "real" railway, right down to the corporate blue and arrows of indecision.

Edited January 8, 2021 by Compound2632

[009 micro modeller]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

its original function as a tourist attraction.

 

Agreed, although supposedly it’s original purpose was also to carry lead and timber. I’m not sure how much of the latter was actually carried.

[Derekstuart]

Emitting nitrogen into the air? Good lord, we can't have any more of that since it's already something like 78% nitrogen already...

 

Ironically, if it wasn't for the nitrogen, any flame on planet Earth would ignite the entire atmosphere.

[Bucoops]

9 hours ago, Derekstuart said:

Emitting nitrogen into the air? Good lord, we can't have any more of that since it's already something like 78% nitrogen already...

 

Ironically, if it wasn't for the nitrogen, any flame on planet Earth would ignite the entire atmosphere.

I'll tell you what - if anyone manages to make them emit nitrous oxide we'd be laughing.

[Michael Hodgson]

On 08/01/2021 at 15:11, Compound2632 said:

 

From experience, from the point of view of a family day out, a "decent length" can mean "not too long".

 

Yes, some of the punters bring little Johnny out for a train ride just to keep him quiet, and then it's "Thank God that's over, now I can get back to watch the footie on telly".

[Compound2632]

21 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Yes, some of the punters bring little Johnny out for a train ride just to keep him quiet, and then it's "Thank God that's over, now I can get back to watch the footie on telly".

 

I can assure you that was not the attitude on our outings. I won't say I don't find anything duller than watching football on the television, as there are many apparently popular activities that fit, but it doesn't rank high on my list of priorities. 

[Rivercider]

On 08/01/2021 at 14:07, Zomboid said:

Heritage railways, like art, are subjective. There are ones which cater to our individual taste, and those that don't.

 

What's unarguable is that there are some big outfits which are well known and very busy. Once you get beyond those hard numbers then it's just preference. For me, Swanage is in the top few because it performs a genuine public transport function, the stations have captured a pleasant atmosphere (which I don't remember from the real world since I wasn't born then, but they're nice places to wait for a train), it has nice enough scenery to make their observation car worth the supplement and enough of a hill to make engines work a bit, plus it suits my personal leaning towards the SR/ LSWR. But that's just me.

 

I am very familiar with three of the well known heritage railways in Devon and Somerset, but have visited Swanage only once. However I thought the atmosphere of arriving at the seaside (Swanage) on a nice sunny day, getting off the train and walking towards the sea front with crowds of others past the loco simmering by the buffers was magical and took me back to the early 1960s arriving at Exmouth. Minehead and Kingswear also work for the same reason.

 

cheers

 

[Zomboid]

20 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Indeed, I think one could argue that the VoR is not a "heritage" railway; rather, it is a railway that has a continuous history of operation fulfilling its original function as a tourist attraction.

The Snowdon mountain railway and several other narrow gauge railways are in the same boat. (RHDR and 15" iteration of Ravenglass immediately come to mind).

[Northmoor]

1 minute ago, Zomboid said:

The Snowdon mountain railway and several other narrow gauge railways are in the same boat. (RHDR and 15" iteration of Ravenglass immediately come to mind).

I'll argue these are all "heritage" railways, as they are routinely operating "heritage" equipment and advertise themselves as doing so.  The fact that they never closed doesn't come into it; the Paignton & Dartmouth Railway never actually closed either, hand-over from BR to the DVR was effectively seamless.  In terms of passenger figures, I think the Snowdon Mountain is in the top 20 of heritage railways.

[Zomboid]

I wouldn't argue that they're not heritage railways, but they were built as tourist attractions and have continued to be tourist attractions thoroughout their existence.

 

Actually nearly all heritage railways could be viewed like that if you want to. The Mid Hants for example was built in the 1970s/ 80s as a tourist attraction, using some of the infrastructure left behind from BR and it's predecessors.

[adb968008]

On 08/01/2021 at 15:11, Compound2632 said:

 

From experience, from the point of view of a family day out, a "decent length" can mean "not too long". The full length of the West Somerset was voted too long; the mile each way of the Lynton & Barnstaple, just right - combined, of course, with other non-railway activities during the day.

Reading the shenanigans at West Somerset, I think they will self correct their lines length before too long.

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, Zomboid said:

The Snowdon mountain railway and several other narrow gauge railways are in the same boat. (RHDR and 15" iteration of Ravenglass immediately come to mind).

 

The RHDR was definitely built as a tourist attraction, the Ravenglass primarily was even if it once transported some granite as well. I would say that these two are definitely now heritage railways though, in the sense that their owning organisations/supporting societies have the preservation of the line and its equipment as an aim. Elsewhere, there are more commercial 15 inch gauge lines that I would not describe as ‘heritage’ but more ‘tourist/leisure’ railways (such as those at theme parks run on a purely commercial basis).

 

Snowdon is also slightly different, it is definitely a tourist railway still performing its original function, however like some other rack lines overseas it perhaps isn’t so much a heritage railway these days as a tourist railway with heritage services alongside the regular ones, considering the recent introduction of new rolling stock and the separation of the steam operation into a separately-ticketed and more expensive service. From the reports in Narrow Gauge World a few years ago I understand this was partly for operational reasons (the new coaches don’t work with the steam locos) and partly because they found that most people just wanted to go up Snowdon and weren’t bothered about what traction was used to get them there. Whether they surveyed passengers on this last point or anything similar is unclear though.

[Ben B]

14 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

 

Snowdon is also slightly different, it is definitely a tourist railway still performing its original function, however like some other rack lines overseas it perhaps isn’t so much a heritage railway these days as a tourist railway with heritage services alongside the regular ones, considering the recent introduction of new rolling stock and the separation of the steam operation into a separately-ticketed and more expensive service. From the reports in Narrow Gauge World a few years ago I understand this was partly for operational reasons (the new coaches don’t work with the steam locos) and partly because they found that most people just wanted to go up Snowdon and weren’t bothered about what traction was used to get them there. Whether they surveyed passengers on this last point or anything similar is unclear though.

 

The Snowdon Mountain Railway have recently/are about to introduce some new stock, hybrid-power units I gather. An enthusiast on another forum mentioned they'll be the most up-to-date, newest stock operating in North Wales by quite some margin...

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, Ben B said:

 

The Snowdon Mountain Railway have recently/are about to introduce some new stock, hybrid-power units I gather. An enthusiast on another forum mentioned they'll be the most up-to-date, newest stock operating in North Wales by quite some margin...

 

https://www.railinsider.co.uk/2020/07/07/snowdon-mountain-railway-receives-new-hybrid-locomotives/

 

Is there a photo anywhere of one of these locos with the ‘passenger pod’ fitted?

[eldomtom2]

On 08/01/2021 at 23:11, 009 micro modeller said:

 

Agreed, although supposedly it’s original purpose was also to carry lead and timber. I’m not sure how much of the latter was actually carried.

I believe it transported a decent amount of timber in WW1. The last freight train ran in the early 30s.

[bike2steam]

On 09/01/2021 at 17:26, Rivercider said:

I am very familiar with three of the well known heritage railways in Devon and Somerset, but have visited Swanage only once. However I thought the atmosphere of arriving at the seaside (Swanage) on a nice sunny day, getting off the train and walking towards the sea front with crowds of others past the loco simmering by the buffers was magical and took me back to the early 1960s arriving at Exmouth. Minehead and Kingswear also work for the same reason.

 

cheers

 

What made it for me was one day, while working at Corfe Castle station, not long after the re-opening of the line from Norden in the early 90's with the 'park and ride' car-park, and seeing the kids bucket, and spades on the coach small tables by the windows, made me smile, and think all the effort was worth while.

Edited January 14, 2021 by bike2steam

[009 micro modeller]

15 hours ago, eldomtom2 said:

The last freight train ran in the early 30s.

 

That’s quite early. Was there no general freight?

[Northmoor]

33 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

That’s quite early. Was there no general freight?

I very much doubt it on the VoR, there is almost no-one to serve.  After the lead mines closed the entire population of the Rheidol Valley could probably fit on a single train.

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Northmoor said:

I very much doubt it on the VoR, there is almost no-one to serve.  After the lead mines closed the entire population of the Rheidol Valley could probably fit on a single train.

 

There's the cafe at Devils Bridge. Ditto the one on Snowdon - even less accessible by road!

[009 micro modeller]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

There's the cafe at Devils Bridge. Ditto the one on Snowdon - even less accessible by road!

 

And of course the railway was also used after that incident a few years ago where someone illegally tried to drive up there, to bring his Vauxhall Frontera down again...