Westdale aluminium body GW E121.

[The Johnster]

I mentioned this project a few weeks ago and have now made a start.  The bodyshell came as part of 4 picked up cheap as chips on the 'Bay; 2 are LMS brake 3rds and the other is a GW C61/3.  E121 is a Collett bowended non gangwayed composite. 

 

I have acquired a Comet underframe kit, ends, and end fittings from Wizard and began the project two nights ago with the underframe.  This proved almost absurdly easy as there is no need to bother with the solebars, which are preformed with the alu bodyshell.  It was just folding the chassis up and the end boxes, then soldering the end inner pieces to the boxes (cosmetic whitemetal outer ends which you file down to fit to the profile provided by the sides finish this off) , folding the trusses out, and soldering the brake hangers in place.  I have predrilled the central of the 5 alternative bogie pivot holes, and may well be reaming this out further to accept spare bogies from an ancient Airfix B set donor, or alternatively Stafford Road Works 3D prints.  A test fit of the bodyshell went well, and it fits nicely over the Comet underframe and to the end pieces. 

 

Next task, later today, is to source a piece of suitable stiff card to make the compartment dividers. and to order some Ratio/Parkside seating.  The dividers will give the bodyshell a bit of added rigidity before it is fairly extensively manhandled to scratch the doorway joins and drilled for doorknobs and grab rails.  The window reveals are simply cutouts in the alu, even the door droplights, and I need to source droplight frames; this will give me the opportunity to have some of them open or half open.  Planned livery is 1945-7 GW choc/cream on one side and BR unlined maroon on the other, possibly with different running numbers, and the coach will run with a 2-coach set of Hornby Collet 57' suburbans in crimson livery.  With luck this should be a fairly straightforward project, and I am not anticipating any problems with it; there, that's jinxed it! 

 

I'm a bit worried about the rigidity of the underframe, which is quite thin brass and wobbles about in the breeze, but it should be fine once it is fixed to the bodyshell.  I will need to take very great care that all is level and square at that stage, which will not be until the coach is almost finished; in fact either this or fixing the cosmetic bow ends on will probably be the final assembly job.  The interior will need to be painted, glazed, first class and smoking labels, and a cosmetic floor attached first, which will seal the interior in forever as there's no chance of getting the roof off!

 

Any advice about scribing the doors will be appreciated!

[Barclay]

I have a vague recollection of an article, probably in an old MRJ, about a kit that came with a brass 'template' for scribing doors. Just a piece of brass sheet with 2 etched slots in it but one could be made by soldering 3 bits of brass sheet together with 2 parallel slots just big enough to take the point of a scriber. Put a curve in it to match the coach side and then move it along the side, scribing the doors one by one. I might have dreamt all this !

[hayfield]

54 minutes ago, Barclay said:

I have a vague recollection of an article, probably in an old MRJ, about a kit that came with a brass 'template' for scribing doors. Just a piece of brass sheet with 2 etched slots in it but one could be made by soldering 3 bits of brass sheet together with 2 parallel slots just big enough to take the point of a scriber. Put a curve in it to match the coach side and then move it along the side, scribing the doors one by one. I might have dreamt all this !

 

I think this was produced by the late Alistair Rolfe of No Nonsense kits, for ex MTK SR EMU coach kits. No idea if Phoenix took this part over or not 

[The Johnster]

Thanks for this, gents.  Some sort of template is probably the answer, and luckily on these Collett coaches the scribed door lines go all the way to the cantrail from the bottom of the side, which makes life easier.  
 

My thought now is of a door template with a position for the handle hole to be drilled so that the handles are all properly aligned.  A problem is going to be how to hold the bodyshell while the scribing is being done, as some force will be needed and I don’t want the bodyshell to flex during the process, so some sort of former to go inside the shell to support the sides from the inside while the scribing is being done to the outside.  
 

This means a change of plan, with the scribing being the next job, before the compartment dividers go in. But I’ve got to make the former and the template first.  I can practice on the LMS shells. I need a thinking session..

Edited December 9, 2020 by The Johnster

[hayfield]

9 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 

I'm a bit worried about the rigidity of the underframe, which is quite thin brass and wobbles about in the breeze, but it should be fine once it is fixed to the bodyshell.  I will need to take very great care that all is level and square at that stage, which will not be until the coach is almost finished; in fact either this or fixing the cosmetic bow ends on will probably be the final assembly job.  The interior will need to be painted, glazed, first class and smoking labels, and a cosmetic floor attached first, which will seal the interior in forever as there's no chance of getting the roof off!

 

Any advice about scribing the doors will be appreciated!

 

From memory I think its the solebars which give the chassis rigidity, plus added detail, I know its a pain but I would remove the solebars on the Ali body

[The Johnster]

Hmm.  Point taken, but I’ll leave things as they are. The underframe is not needed until the bodyshell is complete, and will be stored out of harm’s way pending that.  So long as care is taken to ensure that everything is square and level (and tack glueing with something that takes a while togo off so that I can make some adjustments to ensure this before final fixing) when I attach the body to the underfame, the coach should take it’s rigidity from the bodyshell, stiffened by the compartment dividers, and be fine in service.  
 

I am hoping there will be room beneath the bodyshell floor for some ballast, which if it is solered or glued to the top of the underframe will also impart stiffness. 
 

I’m not a fan of Comet trusses though; they look (and are!) thin and insubstantial. I will probably beef ‘em up a bit from behind with plastic strip. 

Edited December 9, 2020 by The Johnster

[kandc_au]

29 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

 

 

I’m not a fan of Comet trusses though; they look (and are!) thin and insubstantial. I will probably beef ‘em up a bit from behind with plastic strip. 

Johnster,

If the Comet trusses are brass (which I am assuming they are) why not beef them up with brass strip or angle?

Khris

[The Johnster]

Yes, they are brass, and there is no reason not to re-inforce them with brass in the way you suggest; it is what I will do.  Don't know why I didn't think of it myself, it's pretty obvious!

[lofty1966]

I think I'd be inclined to glue the internals With a subfloor assembly (compartments/seats etc) to the chassis to get the rigidity required if you're going to keep the aluminium frame rails.

Body should be plenty strong enough by keeping them.

Just a thought...

Edited December 9, 2020 by lofty1966

[Devo63]

On 09/12/2020 at 12:35, The Johnster said:

Any advice about scribing the doors will be appreciated!

On my various builds of Westdale and BSL kits I photocopied diagram illustrations from various publications (or the drawings that came with the kits). I cut little slits along the door lines and make small pin holes at the handrail/grabrail points in the prints and align them over the model sides. You can run a permanent marker over these holes to mark out any drilling & scribing required. For scribing I just use a thin, flexible piece of scrap brass as a guide and scribe the lines with a cheap splinter remover I picked up at the chemist. One end has a fine point for the initial scribing while the other has been filed slightly to increase the definition of the lines so that they show up after painting. Before painting I usually add the door hinges made of little cuts of wire glued into place. The combination of glue and paint has (so far) never let me down with bits falling off.

 

Dave R.    

[The Johnster]

Thanks Dave; I use the same method for hinges.  There are suitable thin flexible bits of brass with the necessary straight edges left over from the underframe etch as well as what's in the scrap box, and I was considerng makin a dummy brass door shape to scribe against.  I am going to finish the bodyshell as an assembly complete with the painted  interior, and attach the underframe to it, as I feel it will be difficult to build the interior on to the underframe as Lofty suggests and then attempt to fit the bodyshell over the compartment dividers. 

 

This means completing the scribing, drilling, door handles, grab handles, hinges, interior and exterior painting, glazing, and first/no smoking labels done before fitting the compartment dividers, which will have the seats painted and glued to them, possibly passenger added, and sealed in with a false floor.  The underframe will be sprayed with undercoat and painted black, then put aside in  the project box for the final assembly.  With the trussing beefed up, it will be rigid enough on the completed coach.

 

I'm just a little apprehensive of the door sribing process, as I will only have one chance to get this right.  The lines will be scribed very lightly initially, so that heavier scribing has a groove to follow which will hopefully prevent gouging scratches in the bodyside.  Careful marking out on the bottom  of the side will mean that the doors are in the right places; I do not have a scale drawing to use as a marker.  Hole inthe dummy door  to position handle holes, and careful marking out for the grab rail holes.  If these details are fractionally out of position I can live with that, but it is vital that they are level and evenly spaced!

 

I'm more concerened with sourcing the droplight frames for the moment...

[Devo63]

I don't have any drawings of the E121 in my collection but, as the compartment sizes were fairly standard, it should be easy to work out the spacing on the doors. How many compartments were on this particular model? I have a spare Comet etched fret of 18 droplights sitting in front of me. It could take a few weeks to get to you from here down under but they are yours if you want them. Drop me a PM if they are any use for you.  

[The Johnster]

I've scribed the door grooves, by making a starting mark by sight half way across the pillars between the fixed lights and the door droplights, and using a mild steel carriage ballast weight as a straight edge.  A little gently applied brutality to it to bend it to an approximation of the coach profile and then bending down a corner so that it catches on the lip of the solebar, so you can slide it along to align to the marks, and I used an old paint tin that happened to be a suitable size to support the coach side from inside.  The actual scribing was doen with an exacto knife curved blade, run 4 or 5 times to achieve the depth, and then a centrepunch used for the final pass. 

 

Then I sprayed the coach grey undercoat, and can report that the scribed doors are perfectly visible beneath the paint.  The topcoats will be cream, acryrilic rattlecan if I can find a suitable colour, and that will do for the interior surfaces as well, and then of course chocolate lower panels. Next task is to mark out and drill holes for the door handles, grab rails, and door stoppers, and I will make some sort of template for these, stiff card probably, to run along the solebar lip.  Then I'll have to source stuff.  The door stoppers and hinges will be brass wire, but I'll need to get T door handles and grab rails; I believe Roxey do these. 

[Devo63]

I've used the Roxey etches a fair bit in the past and found them very easy to use. 4A108 has 120 T handles and 4A115 has 84 grab irons. If you are going to build any brake coaches Brassmasters sell the ex Martin Finney window grills, item no. E7. 

[The Johnster]

I've managed to do the next statge today, I mean yesterday as it's Monday morning now.  This was the marking out of holes to be drilled for the doorstops and handles, and I did it in the following way:-

 

1) Cut a piece of clear plastic to fit between the solebar lip and the cantrail, bent a little to follow the tumblehome and 'enage' on the solebar lip, the same principle as the door marker template.

2) Drill the holes for the stops and handle in position on the first door.  I haven't done the grab rail holes yet as I'm awaiting a delivery of them to see what the positon will be, as two holes will have to be drilled for each grab rail. 

3) The clever bit.  Postition the clear plastic over the drilled holes and drill holes in the plastic in line with the previously drilled holes in the coach side so that the drill goes through the plastic and the holes previously drilled. 

4) Scribe a mark between the two doorstop holes.

5) You now have a template that can be used for all the other doors which will guarantee that the doorstop holes and handle hole are in the same position on all of them.  The scribed line is used to line the clear positioning template over the door mark on the left hand side of the door.  You simply slide the template along, again supporting the inside of the coach side. 

6) I have so far only started the holes, which will be finished off when I have the handles and stops to put in them, but they are all marked and in the correct* position (*if they are out of position, it is by a tiny amount insignificatn on a 'layout' model.  It is more importanat that they are all in line and in the same position on each door than that they are are absolutely accurate, and the template ensures that this is the case).

 

And that's it for now; I must await the delivery of grab rails and door handles before proceeding further, although a shopping trip should provide a length of brass wire for the stops and the hinges.  I have not yet secured a source of droplights, but am in communication with Andrew at Wizard/Comet and hopeful that he can sort me out.

 

I wanted to photograph the above procedure but the clear plastic either doesn't show up properly in a photo or shows up too well, reflecting light and obscuring what is going on underneath it, which is the important bit,  I trust my descripiton of the procedure is not too garbled, and am happy to answer questions.

 

[The Johnster]

There will now be an intermission while I wait, probably over xmas given the mail situation, for the door handles and grab rails from Roxey, and some Comet droplights which are going to be packed with an E147 B set coach I've ordered.  Ice creams and soft drinks are available in the foyer...

[CEINEWYDD]

I too have a Westdale kit (or two)  to build and am contemplating carving up and bodging parts from a comet coach side to create a jig.  This will have to wait until  i have finished building my GW 2021 pannier for the potential layout of  the not very mean streets of Cowbridge and Penygraig.

 

More importantly and hopefully helpful, have you thought about soldering the solebars  on top of the chassis and then building the interior with either slots cut into partitions and seats, or cutting rebates into the bottom of them so the fit in the gap?  Am I making any sense ?

 Adding the solebars should add loads of rigidity. 

Incidentally I have made a number of coach underframes from brass sheet & profiled section rod for the floor and truss rods and solebars.  Not difficult but much more effort than a Comet underframe and much slower, so I totally agree with your approach.

  

 

[Steamport Southport]

Well I found the instructions to one of the aluminium kits I've got. A BSL GWR D94 BTK. Not the kit though....

 

Useful drawing but the instructions are just a typed page and extremely vague and are possibly generic to every kit. I thought they might have been of use, but aren't.

 

They are just sentences such as "Hand rails, door handles, etc can be made from brass wire", "Fix the buffers to coach end", "Cut glazing to length and fit", etc. 

 

I've got the matching one for the other end. So that's the one I've mistook for a B Set. It's a pair of mainline corridor coaches instead.

 

 

 

Jason

[The Johnster]

3 hours ago, CEINEWYDD said:

I too have a Westdale kit (or two)  to build and am contemplating carving up and bodging parts from a comet coach side to create a jig.  This will have to wait until  i have finished building my GW 2021 pannier for the potential layout of  the not very mean streets of Cowbridge and Penygraig.

 

More importantly and hopefully helpful, have you thought about soldering the solebars  on top of the chassis and then building the interior with either slots cut into partitions and seats, or cutting rebates into the bottom of them so the fit in the gap?  Am I making any sense ?

 Adding the solebars should add loads of rigidity. 

Incidentally I have made a number of coach underframes from brass sheet & profiled section rod for the floor and truss rods and solebars.  Not difficult but much more effort than a Comet underframe and much slower, so I totally agree with your approach.

  

 

Making plenty of sense, Newquay, but I'm adopting a different approach.  Instead of building from the chassis upwards with the interior finished before the bodyshell goes on, I'm doing it from the roof down; the bodyshell will be painted, fitted with the interior, and glazed, then a false  floor fitted, befor attaching the Comet underframe.  The bodyshell, with the compartment dividers in place, should be rigid enough for a sort of 'intergral' mk2 type bodyshell construct, with the underframe soldered directly to it.  As most of the top surface of the underframe will be soldered or glued to the false floor, and I will be beefing up the trusswork, it will be easy to solder strengtheners underneath the underframe, out of sight, out of brass angle.  This should (I hope) result in a rigid coach with sufficient weight for good running.  Bogies will be Stafford Road Works 3D prints, known good  runners that are already square and true, and come with printed in NEM pockets.

 

I'm interested in your Cowbridge/Penygraig set up.  There can be few places like Llantrisant, with such completely different branch lines served by the same junction and shed,  Cowbridge is the epitome of bucolic rural branches, and Penygraig is pretty solidly rooted in the bleak Mid Glamorgan industrial uplands and mining valleys. 

[CEINEWYDD]

LTS and its varied surrounds is exactly why it interests me.  That and being brought up in Talbot Green!  I have found the books by Colin Chapman utterly fascinating, and a source of extreme regret that I did not pay much (or any) attention to the railways then.  The Ely Valley line passed the end of our street, and my father took a couple of pictures of the dismantling of the railway bridge on Lanelay Road.   One is of the first crane having fallen backwards, and then another of the second crane lifting the first.  Pity is it was on 110 film and I don't know where on earth they went.

 

Back to modelling..... Like you I need to mark, or score the door openings on Westdale kits.  I bought a length of aluminium carpet door strip (don't know correct term) to go under the side to support it when drilling holes and marking doors.  I have only had time to use it on BSL kits so simply rested that on the desk.  My next kits will be Westdale so I will take a long lump of flooring grade chipboard raised at either end on blocks of wood  so I slide the complete body onto the support  and keep the other side of off the desk.  

 

As far as marking out door gaps is concerned, I found that I could not get my 'second' mark exactly in the 'first' .  I tried using a Olfa cutter, so maybe that was the problem, as I have read that using a Stanley knife is the way to go. Let me know how it goes.

[The Johnster]

I used an exacto to 'start' the scribed lines and deepened them with a poundshop 'watchmakers' screwdriver; I am a fan of using cheapo tools for tasks they were not originally intended for, as they are usually useless or worse for the jobs the were originally designed for, and it keeps my nice tools from being abused in this way.  The metal is quite soft and marks easily.

 

Door handles and grab rails have arrived from Roxey, kudus RML as that's not bad service considering the time of year and their staffing/sorting space issues.  So the bodyshell will be taken a stage further over the next few days, but cannot be finished until the droplights turn up from Comet.  No worries, this a simmering in the background sort of project not a race, and I don't mind delays so long as there are other jobs to carry on with if I feel like making things instead of operating.  I need to order some Ratio/Parkside coach seating as well; was going to go out today to Lord & Butler's to buy some but I've been caught out with the latest lockdown (Wales is now at Tier 4 for the forseeable).  TGF the internet; I would be highly frustrated were it not here for me to buy model railway stiff from!  I'm frustrated by being out of stock of brass wire for this and a few other jobs, needed for the hinges and door stops.

[The Johnster]

More work done this evening. as the postman brought the stuff from Roxey this morning.  I've now done the grab rails and door handles on one side; the door handles are pretty close to the limit of what I can manage with tweezers, but they are in, all the same level, and all in the closed position (this is important as a guard wil check this by looking along the line of handles to see that all doors are secure before giving the 'right away').  Nine handles is enough of that sort of thing for one evening, and my eyses are shot now, so I've put it all away and am having a cup of tea, cwtch with the squeeze, and, when I've done this, watching a bit of tele with a can or two of Guiness.  I'm feeling rather pleased with myself, so something is bound to go wrong soon...

 

I cheated a little by making the holes oversize, which means there is some play for correcting the position of each handle to match the next.  The gaps are small and will be easily filled with a little Milliput before painting; actually the paint would probably do it, but we'll do the job properly.  Plan is to scrape the paint off the handles rails to reveal the natural brass as probably the last job before completion.  The experience has reminded me that there are a number of RTR coaches on the layout that can be improved in this way!

[The Johnster]

I've had some droplight frames from Wizard/Comet this morning, which cheered me up a little in the lockdown gloom, packed in gratis with a Smith's rail built loading gauge I'd ordered from them; first class service in difficult times!  This means that I can continue the project;  the droplights can be installed and then I can start on the compartment dividers and seating.  Watch this space for the next thrilling installment of...  'E121; building and painting, the early years!'.

[CEINEWYDD]

I've used Wizard in the past too and have always had first class service. Is a really nice bloke.  Hope all this Covid stuff does not stuff him/his business.

[The Johnster]

 

Sitrep, 00.15 GMT, 00.01 Cardiff Astronomical. 

 

The door handles, grab rails, and droplight window frames are in, with some droplights  modelled open to varying degrees.  A senior moment has allowed me to describe this coach as an E121 because somebody had written that in felt tip inside the roof, but it is in fact I believe a C61 all third, which is in fact more suitable for the Tondu Valleys,  The eBay seller simply described it as an aluminium coach body. I already have an ersatz C61 formed by cut'n'shutting Airfix B set coaches, so I can retire that when this one is finished and use the underframe and bogies under a Comet K40 BG. 

 

It's beginning to look a bit more like a coach body now, as opposed to something that vaguely aspires to be one one day, and I am taking time out to consider the next move, probably fitting the ends on and filing them to match the sides, then doing the compartment dividers.  I am waiting for some Parkside/Ratio seating in the post, and would like to have the interior painted  before attaching the seating, glazing, putting no smoking  notices in the relevant windows, maybe one or two passengers, and sealing it all up with a floor that will sit on top of the Comet underframe.  This is in the interest of structural rigidity, as I am not convinced that the Comet underframe will be strong enough on it's own to prevent itself and the bodyshell from flexing; the ends, compartment dividers, seating, and false floor will make what will be effectively a box girder bodyshell (if it's good enough for the Cleddau Bridge, it's good enough for me), and the underframe and bogies will fix to it cosmetically, rather like the old Triang plastic ones on the shorty coaches did.

 

The droplight frames were fixed using Glue'n'Glaze as an adhesive, as it is far too awkward to attempt soldering in the restricted space of the bodyshell (for me, anyway, I'm not a bl**dy gyneacologist).  This stuff is expensive to be used in such a way, but I doubt I'll have a huge number of kit locos to use it on the spectacle plates of now, and it has the advantage of drying clear and giving you a few minutes to fine tune the positioning.  The door stop holes are drilled but I can't get into Antics in town for brass rod, which I need for several jobs, because of lockdown, and am loth to order such an item online unless I can save postage by lumping it in with a bigger order.

 

I'm enjoying this project so far!  There will now be a few days rest from it while I build a Smith's rail built GW loading gauge, having caught my sleeve on the Scalescenes one and broke it; it was only ever intended to be a temporary thing anyway and I've never been happy with it.