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Mogul liveries - could a green loco have a black tender?


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I have been researching a suitable Mogul for 1958 with steam pipes, in BR black, based near the Bodmin area, preferably with the early motion bracket. This has proved trickier that I had hoped but 5336 looks a possible candidate. 

 

These two photos from 1959 and 1964 have high washouts and a small safety valve and I have a "mid 50" shot at Lostwithiel when it was a Laira loco, which also has the small safety valve (you cant tell re the washout plugs - although I would have said lower if pressed).

 

https://www.tauntontrains.co.uk/photos/gallery/archivesteam

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrsa3165.htm 

 

I also have a photo off ebay, undated and too grimy to determine livery, with a smokebox plate, low washout plugs and a high safety valve cover. It comes up as the second photos in google images searching GWR 5336. 

 

I assume this must be earlier and it had a boiler swap in BR ownership, before the photo at Lostwithiel. My concern is the timing and whether it would have got green livery at the same time or just early enough to have retained black. Is there anywhere I can confirm the date of a boiler swap (or works visit at least) for a specific loco?

 

Also, did safety valve covers ever change without a full boiler swap? ie Could the Lostwithiel photo be an interim condition with the original low washout plug boiler but a new short safety valve cover?

 

Advice gratefully received as ever (as long as it's not proof it was green!)

 

 

 

Edited by Hal Nail
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1 hour ago, Hal Nail said:

I have been researching a suitable Mogul for 1958 with steam pipes, in BR black, based near the Bodmin area, preferably with the early motion bracket. This has proved trickier that I had hoped but 5336 looks a possible candidate. 

 

These two photos from 1959 and 1964 have high washouts and a small safety valve and I have a "mid 50" shot at Lostwithiel when it was a Laira loco, which also has the small safety valve (you cant tell re the washout plugs - although I would have said lower if pressed).

 

https://www.tauntontrains.co.uk/photos/gallery/archivesteam

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrsa3165.htm 

 

I also have a photo off ebay, undated and too grimy to determine livery, with a smokebox plate, low washout plugs and a high safety valve cover. It comes up as the second photos in google images searching GWR 5336. 

 

I assume this must be earlier and it had a boiler swap in BR ownership, before the photo at Lostwithiel. My concern is the timing and whether it would have got green livery at the same time or just early enough to have retained black. Is there anywhere I can confirm the date of a boiler swap (or works visit at least) for a specific loco?

 

Also, did safety valve covers ever change without a full boiler swap? ie Could the Lostwithiel photo be an interim condition with the original low washout plug boiler but a new short safety valve cover?

 

Advice grateful received as ever (as long as it's not proof it was green!)

 

 

 

Hall,

here is my list of references to 5336 photos, most are 1964 because it was a late survivor on the Barnstaple line. The 6 December 1951 photo at Swindon Town shews it to be in the same condition as your ebay photo - tall SV cover, low w/o plugs, & unusually a small 1st BR totem.5336-listing.xlsx

edit: I've just realised that the Swindon Town photo is also on the Rail Photoprints website - but this has a date of 6 December 1952 which is a Saturday so is more likely to be correct. The colour photo on the Rail Photoprints site at Barnstaple Junc shed on 29 February 1964 seems to shew it with a tender with a large 1st BR totem - which would suggest the tender (at least) was black - but everyting is so filthy it's difficult to be sure.

Martin

 

Edited by martinT
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1 hour ago, martinT said:

Hall,

here is my list of references to 5336 photos, most are 1964 because it was a late survivor on the Barnstaple line. The 6 December 1951 photo at Swindon Town shews it to be in the same condition as your ebay photo - tall SV cover, low w/o plugs, & unusually a small 1st BR totem.5336-listing.xlsx

edit: I've just realised that the Swindon Town photo is also on the Rail Photoprints website - but this has a date of 6 December 1952 which is a Saturday so is more likely to be correct. The colour photo on the Rail Photoprints site at Barnstaple Junc shed on 29 February 1964 seems to shew it with a tender with a large 1st BR totem - which would suggest the tender (at least) was black - but everyting is so filthy it's difficult to be sure.

Martin

 

Wow, super, thanks!

I take it that's a one off and you don't do this for every loco!

 

That late colour one does look more likely to be black to me so I think for once I've got lucky - I wont even need to change the small crest as the model already has one. 

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1 minute ago, Miss Prism said:

 

I think one of those two captions is wrong. I don't believe the loco would have had a boiler change between 22 April 1964  and 17 July 1964.

 

Probably didnt gain a window cab either!

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21 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

Wow, super, thanks!

I take it that's a one off and you don't do this for every loco!

 

Well, I do have a list of 1534 references - but I've only done it for Moguls! If any one has references for 6315, 6382, 7338, & 9312 I be grateful to hear of them - they are what I need to complete the 63xx, 73xx, & 93xx series. (6315 was the early withdrawal after the Llangollen accident of 1945).  43xx, 53xx, & 83xx are more difficult. I'm looking for photos that are published or in publically available collections on the web. I'm ignoring photos for sale that are in printed lists or are on ebay.

Martin

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11 hours ago, martinT said:

Well, I do have a list of 1534 references - but I've only done it for Moguls! If any one has references for 6315, 6382, 7338, & 9312 I be grateful to hear of them - they are what I need to complete the 63xx, 73xx, & 93xx series. (6315 was the early withdrawal after the Llangollen accident of 1945).  43xx, 53xx, & 83xx are more difficult. I'm looking for photos that are published or in publically available collections on the web. I'm ignoring photos for sale that are in printed lists or are on ebay.

Martin

Have you come across the Colour Rail website? Whole stack of photos on there including my friend in 1958. Looks for all the world like a small late crest but I think its the large early one from those later photos, with only a small part in the middle cleaned.

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  • Hal Nail changed the title to Mogul liveries - could a green loco have a black tender?
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I've now bought a high res scan of 5336 in 1958 and the loco looks green and although heavily pixelated, you can just about see lining on the tender and a late crest. Yet there are numerous photos of this loco in 1964 with a large early crest tender - the colour completely obscured!

 

Could a green loco have been paired with a black tender late on? I've never seen a clear photo of this happening?

 

Edit: I've answered my own question by finding a photo of 6301 with the loco lined green and a plain black tender in 1959

Edited by Hal Nail
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On 11/12/2020 at 22:47, Hal Nail said:

Have you come across the Colour Rail website? Whole stack of photos on there including my friend in 1958.

Well yes, but it's one of the sources I haven't yet trawled through. I get bouts of enthusiasm - but not recently!

Martin

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27 minutes ago, martinT said:

Well yes, but it's one of the sources I haven't yet trawled through. I get bouts of enthusiasm - but not recently!

Martin

My enthusiasm for research is considerably reduced given I havent got the answer I was hoping for!

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On 11/12/2020 at 11:46, martinT said:

Well, I do have a list of 1534 references - but I've only done it for Moguls! If any one has references for 6315, 6382, 7338, & 9312 I be grateful to hear of them - they are what I need to complete the 63xx, 73xx, & 93xx series. (6315 was the early withdrawal after the Llangollen accident of 1945).  43xx, 53xx, & 83xx are more difficult. I'm looking for photos that are published or in publically available collections on the web. I'm ignoring photos for sale that are in printed lists or are on ebay.

Martin

Could I possibly be cheeky and have a look at your lists for 6503 and 6319 please? 

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2 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

Could I possibly be cheeky and have a look at your lists for 6503 and 6319 please? 

It would be easiest for me to give you the whole lot. Note that I'm only halfway through Freddie Huxtable's 3 vol magnum opus on the Barnstaple line. Also I see that Colour Rail lists 422 photos of them - so I shalln't be starting on that lot soon.mogul-listing-mjt-13Dec2020.xls

Martin

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