Wagon Axlebox Longevity

[jjnewitt]

Just wondering if anyone knew how long a wagon axlebox might be expected to last before the journals needed attention? Specifically I was thinking about 1930s/40s/50 oil axleboxes rather than grease axleboxes or roller bearings. I'm curious as to how long a wagon might stay with the axleboxes it was built with. 

 

Justin

[shipbadger]

The not very helpful answer is probably 'it depends'.  Variables include the obvious has it run hot at some point, has it been allowed to run dry, has any water in the box been allowed to accumulate (but oil floats on water so it needs serious neglect to affect the bearing), has dirt/grit entered.  Some boxes have, or more often had, a shield at the back of the box to try to keep dirt out, but this often disintegrates.  The nature of the load carried also comes in to play here.  The actual bearing can of course be re-metalled but I'm not sure how wear in the horn guides was dealt with.  With the wagons with which I am familiar some have a single replacement, others two or more.  But of course you cannot tell if a replacement in the same style has been used, only if for example a casting with SR is present on a wagon built in pre-grouping days.  I'm sure someone will know but apart from dates for paint inspection I am not aware of any regular shopping programme such as carriages have.  I suspect it depending on whenever a defect was found or the need to convert to, for example a different braking system or bodywork modification.

 

In many cases a clue may be the presence of a GR/Gen Rep or the full Generally Repaired plate on the solebar.  I did the floor of a Loriot last week with a Cardiff Cathays GR plate, and I assume they would have checked the bearings at that point.  At that stage the wagon would have been around 45 years old I think but there was no info as to any previous servicing.

 

I have four boxes in bits at the moment, the common factor in all of them is wear in the bearing oil pads which left unattended will lead to scoring of the axle ends.  One of the regular jobs is to siphon water out of boxes for stock that has been standing around for a while.

 

I currently have the BR handbook for wagon examiners and oilers at home so I'll see what, if anything, that says.  Incidentally grease axleboxes used 'grease' derived from whale blubber so the few that survive need a modern substitute.

 

Tony Comber

[Wickham Green too]

As Tony suggests, it's not the visible part of the box that's meant to wear - the actual 'brass' will be replaced many times before there's any perceived need to replace the box itself - and on many patterns of box the 'SR' or whatever will be on a separate cover which is more likely to get broken and is easier to replace ....... and, of course, a replacement cover might not have the same lettering - just to confuse future historians !

[101]

As the others have said, it's a bit like Triggers broom, there's no reason why a vehicle couldn't have run it's whole life with the same axleboxes, but in that time they could have had any number of bearings,oil pads and wheelsets/journals.

[The Stationmaster]

4 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

As Tony suggests, it's not the visible part of the box that's meant to wear - the actual 'brass' will be replaced many times before there's any perceived need to replace the box itself - and on many patterns of box the 'SR' or whatever will be on a separate cover which is more likely to get broken and is easier to replace ....... and, of course, a replacement cover might not have the same lettering - just to confuse future historians !

The brasses will last a good long time provided they are the whitemetal is redone properly when wear sets in.  Main wear items were always teh pads - getting 'glazed' as time went on especially if a vehicle had been standing for any length of time (check the pads before its moved) and teh whitemetal will obviously go first if there's any wear occurring and once it has gone the brasses and journal will be damaged.  And once the brasses have gone the outer part of the axlebox will probably go before the journal - the worst one I ever saw was the journal end of the axle running/rubbing against the wagon underframe, everything else had gone - the whole lot axlebox and most of the 'W' iron had vanished.

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

........ especially if a vehicle had been standing for any length of time .........

In certain areas it was / is recommended to check that any vehicle that's been standing for a while hasn't been 'relieved' of its brasses.

[Fat Controller]

10 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

In certain areas it was / is recommended to check that any vehicle that's been standing for a while hasn't been 'relieved' of its brasses.

I remember a whole rake of minerals losing their brasses when left standing for Miners' Fortnight at a site in Swansea.

[cheesysmith]

I know it is a roller bearing butm does anybody remember the report on the Tara mines wagon that had the failed bearing? I think that must have been a record for the longest a bearing had been in service.

[The Johnster]

2 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

 

In certain areas it was / is recommended to check that any vehicle that's been standing for a while hasn't been 'relieved' of its brasses.

At Cwmbargoed this was compounded by the local sheep; if the local miscreants hadn't made off with the brasses, the sheep had learned how to flip the cover up with their noses and eaten the  grease!

[jjnewitt]

Thanks for the responses, interesting stuff. 

 

Justin

[Wickham Green too]

3 hours ago, The Johnster said:

At Cwmbargoed this was compounded by the local sheep; if the local miscreants hadn't made off with the brasses, the sheep had learned how to flip the cover up with their noses and eaten the  grease!

That's when they weren't getting sucked into Brunel's atmospheric pipes ........................ or was that rats ?

[Compound2632]

4 hours ago, The Johnster said:

At Cwmbargoed this was compounded by the local sheep; if the local miscreants hadn't made off with the brasses, the sheep had learned how to flip the cover up with their noses and eaten the  grease!

 

I thought you were going to say the sheep made off with the brasses to pay their bus fares into town once they'd rolled over the cattle grids - they weren't just keeping out of the rain in those bus shelters, you know. 

[45125]

When a wagon gets lifted and the wheel sets are removed, the axle boxes will go for inspection along with the bearings and the wheel set may go off turning and journal inspection, so it the whole lot may not go back on the same wagon they came from.

[Steamport Southport]

I remember talking to a volunteer who was restoring a wagon somewhere (might have been Foxfield) and being interested in one of the axleboxes on it as they didn't match.

 

The wagon was BR yet the axlebox cover was NBR. Apparently it arrived like that straight from BR.

 

This was well over sixty years after the NBR ceased to exist.

 

 

Jason

Edited December 13, 2020 by Steamport Southport

[IWCR]

If properly maintained the axle boxes and bearings should last the life of the wagon.

The condition of the lubrication pad and ensuring the oil remains topped up and clean is the key.

Some older wagons which originally had grease boxes did have these replaced with oil boxes but this was in the way of an upgrade.  Also if wheelsets were replaced with a different type this may also result in the boxes being changed if journals were different.

 

Pete

[jjnewitt]

36 minutes ago, IWCR said:

If properly maintained the axle boxes and bearings should last the life of the wagon.

 

Hi Pete. Did any of this maintainance require the boxes to be removed from the wagon? That's obviously the time when axleboxes could be changed to a different type or another set of boxes of the same type fitted.

 

I had imagined that boxes got removed for inspection/work at whatever point it was necessary and another set got fitted simply because they were ready to go. A bit like steam loco boilers. Unless it was an oddball you didn't wait around until the one it came into the works with with got repaired. You got another one and sent it back out. That is of course in my head, hence why I asked the question.

 

Justin 

 

 

[Wickham Green too]

2 hours ago, jjnewitt said:

.... I had imagined that boxes got removed ........... and another set got fitted simply because they were ready to go. .........

Certainly did happen : Look at any pre-grouping wagon that's passed through military hands into preservation and you're likely to find a mish-mash of wheels. boxes, buffers etc. from a number of different origins that don't match the 'original' wagon. Not all pre 1923 RCH standard wheelsets were interchangeable, though.

[jjnewitt]

Or look through Paul Barlett's woderful website for odd axleboxes or 1960s BR platefront axleboxes or any pre-Nationalisation wagon with a BR era box. 

 

How long before it might happen though? Obviously that going to depend on the wagon but it would be interesting to get an idea, say for 12T vans or minerals rather than specials such as Lowmacs.

 

Justin

Edited December 14, 2020 by jjnewitt
Clarity

[shipbadger]

I've now been through the examiners and oilers book and there is no mention of a 'service interval' for the boxes but oil pads were supposed to be checked at two month intervals and the date written in chalk on the solebar on both sides prefixed PE.  Must say it is not something that leaps out at you in photos, must look harder.  I use a paint pen and write the date on the axlebox  when the oil is topped up, but of course this is for stock that spends much of it's time just standing around.

 

Tony Comber

[jjnewitt]

I've seen markings with dates on the solebars of wagons in photos taken in the fifties. Not sure about I've seen any prefixed PE but definately prefixed P, usually accompanied by another date prefixed by an L. P for pads makes sense. Anyone have any idea what the L stood for?

 

Justin 

[Wickham Green too]

'LIFT' ?

[jjnewitt]

I can't find anything illustrative of the dates with a quick look online but if anyone's got David Larkin's Wagons of the Early British Railways Era on page 25 there's a great picture of a nearly new Shocopen and you can clearly see the two dates on the solebar. Both read 28-9-51.

 

1 minute ago, Wickham Green too said:

'LIFT' ?

 

That would make sense. In context of the Shocopen mentioned above that would probably have been when the wheels were put in for the first time. The wagon was new that year and doesn't look like it's carried a lot of freight.

 

Justin

[Miserable]

Have a look here, another Paul Bartlett site - there was some pretty ancient stuff still going in late BR https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/axleboxes

[2251]

On ‎13‎/‎12‎/‎2020 at 09:16, shipbadger said:

 

Incidentally grease axleboxes used 'grease' derived from whale blubber so the few that survive need a modern substitute.

I rather thought that grease axle boxes used tallow (readily available and cheap) or what was described as  "yellow grease" (which I think is merely a lower grade of tallow). Are you able to give a reference for the use of whale blubber/ whale oil?

[Wickham Green too]

Whale oil was used for lighting - rather smelly, I guess - but maybe there was a residue from processing it that was suitable for bearings ?