Problems wiring double switch

[sunrunner4kr]

Hi all,

I have a Peco code 55 double switch wired up. I'm having problems with one of the frog polarities and hoping someone could help!

 

I have a Z21 setup, with PM1 motors connected to ads2sx.

All rails connecting to double slip are insulated.

 

My right point (wired to left frog) is working fine, which when I set in Z1, switches and sets the opposing frog polarity correctly.

My left point (wired to right frog) when set in Z21, is switching and setting the opposing frog polarity correctly in line with what Z21 thinks it is, but physically it's set to the wrong direction.

 

I've tried swapping the signal on Z1 for the point, so physically it matches the Z1, but then polarity of the frog is wrong.

I've tried switching the connectors to the ads2sx around, and still the same problem.

I've tried manually moving the point, but it just remembers and sets it wrong again.

 

It's really frustrating, as i'm sure there must be something wired wrong, but i've wired it the same as the opposing motor/frog which is working correctly.

 

So, in the picture below when for the configuration when the tracks should be directed top left, to top right.

I've highlighted what polarity the tracks are when physically it is set to move the engine in the yellow highlighted direction.

 

On the Z21, when the app is set to the picture on the left, the polarity is correct, but physically it's pointing bottom right.

And when the app is set to the picture on the right, it's physically correct, but polarity the opposite.

 

   

 

Any help much appreciated!

 

Thanks

 

Simon

 

[Ray H]

Something looks amiss with the point motor wiring.

 

Have you per chance got the to green wires the wrong way round?

 

If you are switching (say) the left hand blades and (correctly) using that motor's inbuilt switch to set the frog polarity it isn't possible to throw the blades in one direction and get the relevant frog polarity correct and to then throw the blades the other way and find the frog polarity is incorrect.  I temper that statement by adding that the switch on the motor has to actually be working properly (or you need a new PM1).

 

Unless the two switch wires - which I think are red & the adjacent black in your picture - are somehow connected incorrectly to the same place.

[mikeg]

I had this problem and overcame it by using two Y points toe to toe and then you get the right switching to the frogs I know this is not correct but I could only get one frog the correct which ever way I set the switches on the Z21.

 

regards mike 

[sunrunner4kr]

Thanks both. @mikeg do you mean y points in the app?

 

@Ray H sorry, it was hard to explain. The frog polarity is wrong every time I throw it. Always the opposite it needs to be. Like it's back to front.

And like I tried to explain, in the Z21 app it makes sense. The polarity and direction matches what it should be.

It's just that physically it's pointing the opposite direction.

 

If I change the Z21 app switch to match the way it's pointing physically, then the app always matches physically. But the polarity is then always wrong, alternating to the opposite of what it should be.

[sunrunner4kr]

@mikeg I'm using two turnouts back to front in the app btw, not the double switch unit

[Ray H]

If the frog polarity is correct and the blades (at the opposite end) are in the wrong position all you should need to do is to swap the wires to the A & B terminals on the PM1 - or leave them alone and swap the other ends of those two wires over.

[RAF96]

BRM did an article fairly recently detailing the wiring for these points.

Maybe Andy could link to it.

[jpendle]

This problem is unrelated to the Z21 app, or the ADS.

 

You've wired the second point motor wrong. The black and red feeds to the built in switch should be reversed.

Remember that in a double slip you have the two 'points' back to back, they don't face the same direction, so the frog polarity wiring won't necessarily be the same.

 

BTW the double slip icon in the Z21 app works fine, you just need to get your head around the logic of how each point motor works with the slip.

 

Regards,

 

John P

[Grovenor]

And the wiring for two Y points and for a double slip are identical.

[John ks]

2 hours ago, jpendle said:

You've wired the second point motor wrong. The black and red feeds to the built in switch should be reversed.

 

The top left corner shows the 2 wires that need to be swapped at the point motor(what jpendle said as an image)

The physical orientation of the point motor can determine if the frog polarity is correct

 

Assuming that DCC red & black wires to the seeps go to the red & black buses respectively 

In the slips shown below if the top one switches the frogs correctly then the RH frog on the lower slip will be incorrect

The lower LH seep is orientated 180deg compared with the top LH seep

To fix this the red & black wires to that seep would need to be reversed 

 

I hope this explanation will give you an insight as to why you went wrong

John

 

 

 

 

 

 

[sunrunner4kr]

Wow, thanks for all the help!!

 

I've swapped the black and red cables over and that point and frog are now correct!

 

I'm getting successful movement in every direction now but one.

 

The plot thickens...

 

Now I'm getting continuity over my top and bottom rail, when I am directing bottom left to bottom right. Which seems strange.

 

So now, in this configuration, basically everything is red :/ both outside rails and the frogs. The frogs are correct as they are now effectively the top rail in this configuration. But why the bottom rail has continuity when it's wired separately to black and works as black in the other configurations....

[sunrunner4kr]

Did a bit more testing. I'm not sure there is continuity, but the multimeter was making a strange pulsating noise when connecting any of the other rails to the bottom rail. In any configuration.

 

It seems to come and go. Sometimes it's doing it all the time. Sometimes nothing. I wonder if it's a loose cable or something

[sunrunner4kr]

Right.... It's because the frog on the left is now out of sync.

 

Z21 app matching physical config. But frog is wrong polarity...

[Nigelcliffe]

If the Z21 App and the turnout motor are moving correctly (ie. blades move to correct position matching Z21 diagram) to both positions, and in each the frog is wrong, then the problem is the wiring of the frog.  

 

There are two wires into the frog switch (the track bus), and one out (to the frog). Swap the two input wires over at the switch and the frog polarity will reverse.   Doesn't matter whether you use the switch on the motor, or the switch on the side of the accessory decoder, just use whichever you find easiest to access.  ( I'd use the accessory decoder because ferrule connectors are so quick to unscrew and swap over to try each arrangement).   

 

 

 

 

 

[sunrunner4kr]

So, I've switched over the cables now on the RH point as well, for the LH frog. The frog is now, no longer switching polarity.

 

Maybe this was the problem all along...and why I was getting so confused.

 

LH point, controlling RH frog is fully working now I've switched cables.

 

Wonder if anything else could be wrong... Before I rip it out and assume the point motor is dud..

 

Guess I could try switching the frog on the decoder instead as suggested.

 

 

[RobinofLoxley]

Although it isnt what you want to hear I think the majority opinion here would be against using Seeps on a double slip.

[Free At Last]

1 hour ago, RobinofLoxley said:

Although it isnt what you want to hear I think the majority opinion here would be against using Seeps on a double slip.

One of the minority here, having three slips using seep PM1s with no problems.

[sunrunner4kr]

I had to sleep on it.

 

I moved the cabling over to use the decoder frog control. And now everything works perfectly. Both points and both frogs.

 

So now I have one I've the motors controlling a frog, and he decoder controlling the other.

 

Maybe it's just a faulty motor.

 

But from now on, think I'll just use the decoder frogs for peace of mind.

 

Thanks everyone for all your kind help!!

[Izzy]

6 minutes ago, sunrunner4kr said:

I had to sleep on it.

 

I moved the cabling over to use the decoder frog control. And now everything works perfectly. Both points and both frogs.

 

So now I have one I've the motors controlling a frog, and he decoder controlling the other.

 

Maybe it's just a faulty motor.

 

But from now on, think I'll just use the decoder frogs for peace of mind.

 

Thanks everyone for all your kind help!!

The Seep has a reputation for the frog polarity switches not being very reliable and working properly. It’s allied to where they are positioned relative to their throw and that of the point tie-bar. If not in unison in respect of equal throw each side of mid-point then the switch often won’t change polarity.

 

Izzy