Any Ideas what this motor is and why it's become so sluggish

[DCB]

Another lame duck.  This is a Dukedog chassis, built professionally  a while ago.

 Can anyone identify the motor please?   And give any hints on why its is so absolutely sluggish now and how to fix it?

It barely crawls along on full power,   It was quite lively when we first had it, but the life has ebbed away despite maybe only 4  hours  running since father in Law had it constructed.

  It ran OK to begin with but is hopelessly nose heavy and relies on the tender hung on the drawbar to hold the back down so it has never entered service as it constantly derails its trailing driving wheels or leading tender wheels.   While trying to adjust the tender arrangements it has become slower and slower.

I can't get the motor out without unsoldering the fly cranks to get the drive axle out to release the gear to give access to the motor screws.

Any  ideas please? 

Edited December 13, 2020 by DavidCBroad

[Izzy]

I think the motor might be an Anchorage DS10. As they look like Romford’s do the cranks not screw onto the axles? IIRC that is how they use to be. If it uses one side live frame pickup - the top motor brush tends to suggest a live chassis - could altering the tender arrangements be causing a short somewhere, not full blown but enough to divert it from the motor? Something along those lines anyway.

 

Izzy

[hayfield]

David

 

I recently bought a kit built loco where one of these motors has given up the ghost. I cannot see springs for the brushes , but initially i saw some burning around the commutator so it might just be dead

 

The crank pins are soldered to the cranks, which are threaded on to the axle. Something will be holding the cranks in place either thread lock, glue or a nut. Deal with as appropriate

 

Once the motor has been removed test it

 

I think the balance and road running issues may be unrelated to the motor issues

[Barclay]

Can the worm be eased off the motor shaft? This would enable you to test the motor off-load and also see if the chassis is free running. Would it also enable you to access the motor fixing screw, ideally with a screwdriver, but otherwise with a mini drill to grind the head off the fixing screw? 

[DCB]

14 hours ago, Barclay said:

Can the worm be eased off the motor shaft? This would enable you to test the motor off-load and also see if the chassis is free running. Would it also enable you to access the motor fixing screw, ideally with a screwdriver, but otherwise with a mini drill to grind the head off the fixing screw? 

Even with the worm off it still doesn't rev freely, the chassis pushes freely enough.  The cranks are soldered to the extended axles, out of line with the Romford crank bosses which is a bit odd.

[Michael Edge]

Yes it looks like a DS10 - still available as Hanozono 10x24 from Branchlines if you need another one. The windings don't look burned, it's unlikley to be weak magnets, it could be weak brush springs. Is there any arcing round the commutator on full volts? Does it always start in any position and is the armature free to turn by hand?

[micklner]

It looks like the motor is full off metal fillings . It will be a big help if its cleaned out !!

 

Remove the front bushes on the crankpins, and then see how it then runs once clean.

[Barclay]

Blast the motor with compressed air, or even better electrical switch cleaner to get rid of all that clag. Shine a torch at the commutator to make sure the brushes are still there and the springs aren't making direct contact with the commutator. The springs and brushes may have become gunged up - try getting a sharp craft knife blade between brush and commutator and make sure the brush will still slide back under pressure. A touch of oil on the bearings and it should then go. I did once have a magnet come loose on a DS10 and it fouled the armature so check that too.

 

Good luck..

[sandra]

I had a similar problem with a K’s Bulldog. It would hardly drag itself along never mind pull a train. It had a DS10 motor which are certainly not the most powerful available and so I was resigned to replacing it. 
 

However as a “kill or cure” solution I sprayed the whole mechanism with WD40. After this it was fine and could actually pull a train of 9 coaches. However I must emphasise that this is a risky solution and I only did it after all else had failed and I was prepared to replace the motor. I did a similar thing to a K’s motor once and it completely killed it.

[mike morley]

Do DS10's run hot?  Last year I had a loco that suddenly began running badly after several years exemplary service.  Cleaning the commutator (surprisingly difficult) made no difference and when I discovered it was running very hot I decided it had simply come to the end of its life and replaced it with a (surprisingly noisy) Mashima.  Only after it had been consigned to the bin did it occur to me that running hot might simply be a trait of all DS10's.

 

Edited to add a PS.

I think I'd want to investigate why the motor in the OP is full of metal filings, as well as cleaning them out.

Edited December 15, 2020 by mike morley

[Fat Controller]

It looks as though the swarf is bridging the gap between the wheel centres and the tyres, which isn't going to be helpful. I'd avoid WD40, as it leaves a residue; switch cleaner (IPA) would be better. And if you've access to one of those ultrasonic cleaning baths....

[stewartingram]

I've said it many times, but to me WD40 is the ultimate bodger's tool, which causes more problems than it cures. For a job like this, if a spray is to be used, Servisol switch cleaner is better as it evaporates after use.

 

Stewart

[Izzy]

I believe WD40 is a penetrating fluid which evaporates rather than a lubricating one that doesn’t.  So great for freeing rusted parts. It’s also good for spraying on spark plug leads to cure starting problems in very cold/damp conditions and dealing with lime scale build up in hard water areas, but terrible for pulling chrome plating off. So it will dry out bearings that need lubricants.

 

A blast of air so bits don’t stick to the surface followed by lubrication is best I find.

 

Izzy

[kevinlms]

On 14/12/2020 at 06:24, Izzy said:

I think the motor might be an Anchorage DS10. As they look like Romford’s do the cranks not screw onto the axles? IIRC that is how they use to be. If it uses one side live frame pickup - the top motor brush tends to suggest a live chassis - could altering the tender arrangements be causing a short somewhere, not full blown but enough to divert it from the motor? Something along those lines anyway.

 

Izzy

I think those motors have plastic bearings. If the motor gets hot (as others have suggested), the bearings get hot and expand, thus tightening up the bearings, which makes it sluggish and heats it up more. Until it overheats and cooks either the brush springs or windings or both!

Unless you can free the bearings, the motor is next to useless.

[Izzy]

8 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

I think those motors have plastic bearings. 

Not as far as I can remember, although I guess the spec may have changed after I stopped using them. A metal frame and plastic end housing which contains the metal brush gear and brass end bearing. I used a fair few of them like many others because apart from the Anchorage TA12 16mm can they were fairly slow running and powerful unlike the high rpm and gutless D11/13’s, and fully insulated to boot for those like me that prefer electrically dead frames where possible. But their metal frames could be distorted with effort, so an aspect to be aware of given the reduction in running quality that resulted.

 

Izzy

[Michael Edge]

They have metal bearings but the frame is held in alignment with the brush holders, if these aren't screwed in correctly the bearings can be out of line.

[DCB]

On 15/12/2020 at 16:16, Michael Edge said:

They have metal bearings but the frame is held in alignment with the brush holders, if these aren't screwed in correctly the bearings can be out of line.

That's interesting, I think I will see if I can remove the armature by pulling the end cap and bearing off after removing the brush holders and worm.

[Michael Hodgson]

DS10s were good motors.  From memory cylindrical brushes and tiny compression springs are contained within the hollow end of those big brass screws.  Apt to fly out and so tiny  that you'll never find them again. 

 

Anchoridge (sic) used to sell spares, not sure how you'd get them now.  I have made replacement brushes for O gauge Bassett Lowkes by filing down larger brushes for something like an electric drill, but these are so small I wouldn't fancy trying.  

[Pebbles]

On the D11 and D12 the brush holders in addition to being slotted  had a small hole. I know that a number of these motors were returned - the cause being connecting wires being soldered to the brush holder and solder infiltrating through the hole and soldering the spring solid. Eventually the carbon brush would erode, initially causing a reduction in power and eventually stopping altogether. I would bit the bullet, remove the motor clean and examine the brush holders. 

[hayfield]

10 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

DS10s were good motors.  From memory cylindrical brushes and tiny compression springs are contained within the hollow end of those big brass screws.  Apt to fly out and so tiny  that you'll never find them again. 

 

Anchoridge (sic) used to sell spares, not sure how you'd get them now.  I have made replacement brushes for O gauge Bassett Lowkes by filing down larger brushes for something like an electric drill, but these are so small I wouldn't fancy trying.  

 

I had this problem a couple of days ago, I found I had some tiny springs for buffers, cut it down in length and all works fine.

[DLT]

On 13/12/2020 at 17:41, DavidCBroad said:

Another lame duck.  This is a Dukedog chassis, built professionally  a while ago.

 

How long ago?  If its never run properly, I would be contacting the builder to sort it out.  Is it a kit?

Having said that, I agree that all that metal crud in the motor and wheels will be a large part of the problem.

Hanging the weight of the tender on the rear of the loco is a well known method of balancing up a 4-4-0, especially a whitemetal one, but like most things it takes a bit of trial and error to get it right.  I'm going through that process right now.

I hope you can get this sorted.

All the best, Dave.

[DLT]

Can you post some more photos from differing angel, to see if there are any other issues?

[DCB]

22 minutes ago, DLT said:

Can you post some more photos from differing angel, to see if there are any other issues?

I will try to, the metal debris is hardy apparent to the eye but shows up in the camera flash.

Still hoping to withdraw the armature from the pole pieces without removing the motor from its mountings.

[AdamsRadial]

15 hours ago, DavidCBroad said:

Still hoping to withdraw the armature from the pole pieces without removing the motor from its mountings.

It's tempting to strip a mech down as far as possible to clean it, but don't forget the armature acts to an extent as the keeper to maintain the closed magnetic circuit. An alternative is to dunk the mech as-is into a bath of solvent such as meths, lighter fuel, IPA, and swab it around to clean it, then after drying in an air-blast, carefully re-lubricate the bearings and see what improvement it has made.

[hayfield]

16 hours ago, DavidCBroad said:

 

Still hoping to withdraw the armature from the pole pieces without removing the motor from its mountings.

 

With the DS10 unscrew the worm, then the brush screws, BUT carefully remove the screws to collect the carbon brush and more importantly the spring.