Sweeping out wagons.

[birdseyecircus]

Does it happen?

Is it more appropriate to steam era.

Modern box wagons unloaded by grab - are the corners swept out?

 

Just curious, never seen pictures (or model) of wagons being swept out.

I guess even scrap metal would need the human touch for non metallic stuff etc.

 

Thanks for any Answers!

 

Paul

[Fat Controller]

Where wagons are being switched between flows (scrap to coal, for example), then they would be swept clean. They'd also be cleaned out before putting into store. I remember the coal yard at Blaydon being used for that, back in the 1980s- one poor soul with a brush, bucket and spade, and a long rake of wagons. We used to sweep ferry vans clean after they'd brought in bagged powders.

[Simon Lee]

When I dealt with MRL at Merehead one of their Rail ops controllers would often work a Sunday sweeping out wagons that were changing flow or commodity this was up to 5 years ago. 

He had a young family so the chance of any overtime was always welcome.

[The Stationmaster]

In the past Mineral wagons - the main ones for seriously mixed types of traffic - were cleaned but there was in many (?most) places no official way of doing it.  

 

In  South Wales in the early 1970s there was a chap who used to clean wagons down in the Cardiff docks area and everyone sent any wagons that needed cleaning to Long Dyke whence they were tripped to the siding he used.  However in a big audit in the area in early 1973 the auditors got very uppity because the chap wasn't paying siding rent and demurrage.  He refused to pay because that would eat most of his profit so taht was the end of that.  a rumour then wen t round that wagons were cleaned in a particular siding at Margam so we started sending any wagons which needed cleaning there - but they didn't clean wagons there so they sent them on to somewhere else.  We finished up after a few weeks with an ever growing train of wagons that needed to be cleaned circulating round the various marshalling yards in South Wales and it finished up with about 60+ wagons on it after which a second train also began doing the rounds.  In the end someone came to a sensible decision to get the original bloke nback into business but to pay him a small sum per wagon for cleaning with him also doing wehat he had originally done and making money out of selling what he got out of the wagons (mainly coal and scrap).

 

But cleaning definitely didn't always happen and in the mid to late '70s we had wagons turning up in the West Country to load sugar beet that needed to be cleaned - wes ent them to severn tunnel Jcn.

 

As far as wagons dealt with in freight depots etc they were inevitably cleaned out after unloading.  Wagons received by coal merchants were scraped clean by the merchant because every ounce of coal they could get out was profit for them.

[Reorte]

Apparently cleaning out wagons was my great-grandfather's job, although family history has him more often finding a comfortable wagon and a good book.

[Fat Controller]

Not ensuring wagons are at least emptied, if not clean, can have serious consequences. There was an incident involving a train of 'empty' hoppers from Angerstein Wharf, which derailed when joining the main line. The first wagon to have derailed was found to still have almost 10t of stone in one corner that hadn't vacated the wagon during unloading; The differential loading on one wheel, in conjunction with track twist, was sufficent to cause a derailment.

 

[Reorte]

3 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

Not ensuring wagons are at least emptied, if not clean, can have serious consequences. There was an incident involving a train of 'empty' hoppers from Angerstein Wharf, which derailed when joining the main line. The first wagon to have derailed was found to still have almost 10t of stone in one corner that hadn't vacated the wagon during unloading; The differential loading on one wheel, in conjunction with track twist, was sufficent to cause a derailment.

 

IIRC a possible contribution to the Soham disaster was an improperly cleaned wagon.

[Harry Welch]

Not a story of wagons being 'officially' cleaned out but it might be of interest.

An old retired goods guard told me that during the summer months in the 1940's and 50', when demand for coal was low, a considerable number of empty wagons were stored on some ex MOD sidings in a semi rural location, just beyond the edge of a small town with very few  houses about.

Later in the year, as demand for coal started to increase, one of his jobs as a guard, was to collect the wagons to send them back to the collieries. He said that if you were on this job you always arranged for a gang of platelayers to meet you there. The reason was that, during the summer, the locals had swept all the remaining coal and slack out every wagon, and every wagon had the doors down, impossible to put them back up from ground level by yourself.

This type of thing had no doubt been going on for years, all over the country, but it was interesting to hear it first hand, and I would never have thought about the doors being open.

 

 

[keefer]

Someone on here recently related the tale of a coal factor returning a consignment of coal as when he had unloaded the first couple of wagons there was x cwt of slack and dust in the bottom of them.

i.e. he was paying only for proper coal, not the rubbish that had accumulated in the wagons.

[TheSignalEngineer]

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Wagons received by coal merchants were scraped clean by the merchant because every ounce of coal they could get out was profit for them.

Been there, done that when my Great Aunt managed a coal merchant's office. Make sure the wagons were clear and then walk down to the goods office to tell them the numbers of the one we had finished with so we didn't get charged for holding them too long. The coal stacks were about 25 yards from the Birmingham - Bristol line. Nice way to spend a sunny afternoon in the school holidays getting extra pocket money whilst trainspotting.

[TheSignalEngineer]

39 minutes ago, Harry Welch said:

The reason was that, during the summer, the locals had swept all the remaining coal and slack out every wagon, and every wagon had the doors down, impossible to put them back up from ground level by yourself.

Last time I saw a lot of empty wagons stored during the summer was on a disused colliery branch on Cannock Chase. When they came to be retrieved the metal fairies had taken up several lengths of track between them and the main line connection and were in the process of removing the bearings.

 

[rodent279]

I'd imagine beer wagons would be popular for cleaning out?!

[Davexoc]

I knew they'd come in useful one day. Here are some empties, firstly going to collect scrap metal from Lincoln terrace IIRC.

 

 

 

 

Then the empties from Calvert landfill, for refilling. I think there might be several tonnes that travel considerable distances......

 

 

 

 

[Rivercider]

In the early 1980s empty air braked opens (TOPS code OAA or OBA) for loading with imported bagged raw sugar at Avonmouth Docks went to Severn Beach station for cleaning out first. After a couple of train loads had been dealt with local n'er-do-wells dropped all the wagon doors for fun, so that was the end of that arrangement.

 

In the TOPS system it was possible for empty wagon movement instructions to specify wagons only that had been previously loaded with a certain loading code. This could be used to ensure that empty 16t minerals (MCO or MCV) that had previously been loaded with scrap (for example) were not then sent for loading coal. If you look at a TOPS wagon enquiry on an empty wagon it will still show the last loading commodity type carried.

 

cheers

[Michael Hodgson]

7 hours ago, Reorte said:

IIRC a possible contribution to the Soham disaster was an improperly cleaned wagon.

Cause was uncertain.  Wagon had previously contained sulphur but was sheeted, so poor sweeping of the load shouldn't have been an issue.  It was suggested that a cinder from loco might have started the fire. 

 

Soham box supposedly demolished in the explosion still survives, as does the lever frame.

[kevinlms]

10 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

In the past Mineral wagons - the main ones for seriously mixed types of traffic - were cleaned but there was in many (?most) places no official way of doing it.  

 

In  South Wales in the early 1970s there was a chap who used to clean wagons down in the Cardiff docks area and everyone sent any wagons that needed cleaning to Long Dyke whence they were tripped to the siding he used.  However in a big audit in the area in early 1973 the auditors got very uppity because the chap wasn't paying siding rent and demurrage.  He refused to pay because that would eat most of his profit so taht was the end of that.  a rumour then wen t round that wagons were cleaned in a particular siding at Margam so we started sending any wagons which needed cleaning there - but they didn't clean wagons there so they sent them on to somewhere else.  We finished up after a few weeks with an ever growing train of wagons that needed to be cleaned circulating round the various marshalling yards in South Wales and it finished up with about 60+ wagons on it after which a second train also began doing the rounds.  In the end someone came to a sensible decision to get the original bloke nback into business but to pay him a small sum per wagon for cleaning with him also doing wehat he had originally done and making money out of selling what he got out of the wagons (mainly coal and scrap).

 

 

Amazing how the bean counters don't get that work that is required, needs doing and someone needs to be earn enough for a living from doing so. In other words, it comes at a price.

 

In Australia, the phone company in the CBD had rooms in major businesses, that were free of charge, where the techs could store spare parts and materials.

Until the day, the bean counters decided that all customers would be charged a call out fee. One such business owner rang up to question whether he would still get charged, considering the free use of the room.

Oh yes he was assured, the call out would still be applied. Needless to say, the phone company got their marching orders. The parts and materials now needed to be couriered out as required, at inconvenience and cost.

[Reorte]

4 hours ago, Davexoc said:

I knew they'd come in useful one day. Here are some empties, firstly going to collect scrap metal from Lincoln terrace IIRC.

 

 

A definite candidate for "when the real thing looks like a model" - I even thought it was at first! Typical empty wagon as new grey plastic interior, as-yet unweathered ballast and sleeper, I even thought it looked a bit like nickel-silver track! The looking almost straight down viewing angle furthers the impression.

Edited December 15, 2020 by Reorte

[rodent279]

5 hours ago, Reorte said:

A definite candidate for "when the real thing looks like a model" - I even thought it was at first! Typical empty wagon as new grey plastic interior, as-yet unweathered ballast and sleeper, I even thought it looked a bit like nickel-silver track! The looking almost straight down viewing angle furthers the impression.

Odd that one wagon has buffers, the other doesn't.

[phil_sutters]

I guess that hoppers generally do the job themselves, or rather gravity does; aggregates polishing the surfaces nicely. Does anyone model the wear and tear at the upper edges?

[Fat Controller]

49 minutes ago, phil_sutters said:

I guess that hoppers generally do the job themselves, or rather gravity does; aggregates polishing the surfaces nicely. Does anyone model the wear and tear at the upper edges?

They usually do the job themselves, but see my comments about Angerstein Wharf. 21t hoppers used to have several lozenge-shaped steel plates in the side, to allow judicious application of a lump-hammer. They also had grab rails inside, in case anyone had to climb down.

[Oldddudders]

14 hours ago, rodent279 said:

I'd imagine beer wagons would be popular for cleaning out?!

I recall a story from the '70s concerning a tanker of wine from Italy, which I think was destined to Eastleigh. The consignee pumped it out and it was sent back to Italy. There was international hell to pay when it arrived home with a sticky residue coating the interior of the tank. It seemed it was nobody's job to clean it after the contents had gone. 

 

Then there was the van which had contained something fragile, so it was left full of straw. The junior was told to go and burn the straw, which he did - by throwing in a match and walking away. "Sir - I regret to report that wagon number Bxxxxxx was this day consumed by fire." must have been the start of the letter to the Division at the time....

[rodent279]

29 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

I recall a story from the '70s concerning a tanker of wine from Italy, which I think was destined to Eastleigh. The consignee pumped it out and it was sent back to Italy. There was international hell to pay when it arrived home with a sticky residue coating the interior of the tank. It seemed it was nobody's job to clean it after the contents had gone. 

 

Then there was the van which had contained something fragile, so it was left full of straw. The junior was told to go and burn the straw, which he did - by throwing in a match and walking away. "Sir - I regret to report that wagon number Bxxxxxx was this day consumed by fire." must have been the start of the letter to the Division at the time....

Moral of the story-be very careful what you ask someone to do. They might just do it.

[Trog]

1 hour ago, Fat Controller said:

They usually do the job themselves, but see my comments about Angerstein Wharf. 21t hoppers used to have several lozenge-shaped steel plates in the side, to allow judicious application of a lump-hammer. They also had grab rails inside, in case anyone had to climb down.

 

Track ballast freezing in the hopper wagons could be a major cause of embarrassment, we tried anti-freeze, loading the ballast into the wagons immediately before they left for site, and stabling the wagons in carriage sheds but nothing worked. So one of our supervisors had a ring round and received a promising suggestion from someone he knew in Glasgow.

 

The following week-end was freezing weather so he tried it out, on a discreetly remote site half way up Camden Bank. The suggestion was that five minutes before you wanted to unload you used a watering can to apply a gallon of petrol to the top of the ballast in the hopper.  Then once it had had a couple of minutes to percolate down through the load you threw a burning rag or wad of paper onto the wagon.  It worked a treat and looked very impressive as the still burning ballast poured out of the hopper chutes.  Not too sure if EWS would have been all that impressed though had they found out about it.

[birdseyecircus]

14 hours ago, Davexoc said:

I knew they'd come in useful one day. Here are some empties, firstly going to collect scrap metal from Lincoln terrace IIRC.

 

 

 

 

Then the empties from Calvert landfill, for refilling. I think there might be several tonnes that travel considerable distances......

 

 

 

 

Great pictures. Just thinking if you had 10,000 tons of whatever to move from A to B and every day 50+ tons of it came back because the wagons weren't fully emptied it would generate another part train load!

 

Paul

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, Trog said:

 

Track ballast freezing in the hopper wagons could be a major cause of embarrassment, we tried anti-freeze, loading the ballast into the wagons immediately before they left for site, and stabling the wagons in carriage sheds but nothing worked. So one of our supervisors had a ring round and received a promising suggestion from someone he knew in Glasgow.

 

The following week-end was freezing weather so he tried it out, on a discreetly remote site half way up Camden Bank. The suggestion was that five minutes before you wanted to unload you used a watering can to apply a gallon of petrol to the top of the ballast in the hopper.  Then once it had had a couple of minutes to percolate down through the load you threw a burning rag or wad of paper onto the wagon.  It worked a treat and looked very impressive as the still burning ballast poured out of the hopper chutes.  Not too sure if EWS would have been all that impressed though had they found out about it.

One of the PerWay subbies in the area I was working in when in the West Country was rather slapdash in his approach to just about everything and he was supervising a relaying job one weekend and, typically, didn't think to check the ballast hoppers until they worked onto site - and of course it was frozen solid.  An awful lot of cotton waste was burned trying to warm up those hoppers.