Hawksworth 94xx tank : Strawberry Line

[Blobrick]

Just a quick question, to the RMweb membership in the off chance someone knows the answer?   

I ve come across a photo of a class 94xx (8492 built 1952 by R Stevenson under subcontract to Hudswell Clark) shunting at Wells station yard on the Cheddar Valley Line. The reference notes state that the loco has worked over the Cheddar line from Bristol to Wells which is a Blue route even though the loco is a Red route loco and therefore barred. Unfortunately there is no date on the photo, does anyone have any more information of this, or knows of over workings involving 94xxs over this line?

 

 

Bob C

[Blandford1969]

I don't but know someone who might, will ask and then see if they reply elswhere

[Blobrick]

Thanks for the offer Blandford, l ll keep my fingers crossed!

 

Thanks 

 

Bob C

[Steamport Southport]

It spent most of it's short life at Bristol SPM if that's of use. With a short spell at Worcester.

 

https://www.brdatabase.info/locoqry.php?action=locodata&type=S&id=8492&loco=8492

 

I'll have a little peek in the Pannier Papers book at some point to see if there is a mention of it.

 

 

Jason

[Blobrick]

4 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

It spent most of it's short life at Bristol SPM if that's of use. With a short spell at Worcester.

 

https://www.brdatabase.info/locoqry.php?action=locodata&type=S&id=8492&loco=8492

 

I'll have a little peek in the Pannier Papers book at some point to see if there is a mention of it.

 

 

Jason

Hi Jason

 

Thank you for the link to the BR data base. The dates indicated narrow the possible dates field down nicely.  As l am interested in traffic on the branch around 1956  the first set of dates before going north would be perfect.

To be honest  8492 appears to have only been allocated to Worcester for about two and a half months, before returning to Bristol SPM until withdrawal in  June of 1959. This is better news than l first thought, suspecting that the photo in question, was possibly post 1960ish

[The Stationmaster]

The Wells branch, aka the East Somerset Line, aka the Yatton - Witham branch was Dotted Blue (not Blue) for route availability which meant that  engines in the Uncoloured, and Yellow Route Availability groups were permitted without restriction - except in various sidings etc.  But as a Dotted Blue line it also meant that various engines in the Blue Route Availability group were permitted at a maximum speed of 25 mph (although most of those permitted were barred from using certain sidings).

 

It looks like the status of the route never changed in the steam era - it was shown as Dotted Blue on the GWR RA map published in 1931 and was unaltered on that map including amendments up to April 1957.  it was still shown as Dotted Blue in the June 1963 Route Availability book.  

 

But if the 94XX was indeed at Wells it is not the first instance of a photo coming to light showing a WR pannier tank on a line which it was not permitted to work over as there are several photos which show panniers (not 94XX) in the Tetbury branch in BR days

[Blobrick]

Hi Stationmaster

 

Once again you ve come to my rescue!. I was not aware of the distinction between Blue and dotted Blue routes so thank you for  pointing that out.

[dibber25]

8433 at Black Dog Halt on the Calne branch, working an engineers train. The Calne branch was yellow restriction. I have another shot of a 94XX on  troop train on the same branch. Both pictures are by Don Lovelock. As I have said in my review of the model, it does seem that the weight restrictions were quite frequently ignored or misinterpreted where these panniers were concerned. (CJL)

[Blobrick]

Thanks Dibber,

 

Love the photo, its not one that l ve seen before.

As you say it does seem as if more than the occasional blind eye was turned, with regard to these locos. Interesting that this is a Yellow route, even lower RA than a Blue route l believe.

I wonder what the lowest route class was that any of these locos traversed ?

Could be the start of a whole new thread, as a "I can justify one of these type of locos on here"  type of thing 

 

Bob C

[The Stationmaster]

On 16/12/2020 at 11:22, Blobrick said:

Hi Stationmaster

 

Once again you ve come to my rescue!. I was not aware of the distinction between Blue and dotted Blue routes so thank you for  pointing that out.

The full list, in descending order was -

Hatched Red. (shown on engines by the 'double red' discs and as known as 'Double Re but shown on the RA map as Hatched Red)

Red

Dotted Red.  (Basically a Blue route but Red engine permitted limited to a maximum speed of 20 mph)

Blue

Dotted Blue  (Basicallya Yellow route but Blue engines permitted limited to a maximum speed of 25 mph)

Yellow

Uncoloured

 

The axle loadings (which is all the system was based on, clearances were subject to individual restrictions or authiorities by class of engine).  going the other way this time -

Uncoloured - maximum permitted axle load - up to 14 tons.

Yellow - maximum permitted axle load up to 16 tons

Blue - maximum permitted axle load up to  17tons 12 cwt

Red - all engines over 17tons 12 cwt (except 60XX 'King' class)

Hatched or Double  Red. 22 tons 10 cwt for the 60XX

 

There were odd exceptions to this - for example the 57XX/8750 panniers (excluding teh cindensing engines) were reclassified from Blue to Yellow in 1950 due to their low hammer blow.  Going the opposite way the 47XX were Red but were prohibited from numerous  Red routes (such as Cornwall and the Wycombe branch between Maidenhead and High Wycombe).  

There were also other interesting exceptions, for example the DN&S was uprated from Dotted Blue to Blue (probably in WWII) but by 1963 both 'Halls' and 'Granges' were permitted between Didcot and Newbury at a maximum speed of 40 mph.  Red category engines were not allowed south of Enborne Jcn on the DN&S but there is photographic evidence the at 'City of Truro' worked through to Southampton over the DN&S while shedded at Didcot so it looks like a Nelsonian eye was being exercised by one Shed Foreman as early as 1957

Edited December 17, 2020 by The Stationmaster

[TheSignalEngineer]

In my area of GWR interest the Swan Village  Branch was Dotted Blue with all Blue classes permitted at 25mph. There is however evidence that Tyseley put out Halls and Granges on passenger trains across it after the LMR takeover.

Fenny Compton to Stratford was a Red route but Castles, Counties and 47xx were barred.

Edited December 16, 2020 by TheSignalEngineer

[astropsidings]

Not strictly on topic but a notice below regarding additional restrictions for Kings in the Birmingham area. Were there similar restrictions for other classes? The Stationmaster mentioned sidings.

 

Ian

Working of King Class Engines 1953.pdf

Edited December 17, 2020 by astropsidings

[TheSignalEngineer]

Local restrictions were listed in the last few pages of each Working Timetable books. See this page to select some that are available online and go to the last pdf section on the page for the area you want.

 http://www.michaelclemensrailways.co.uk/?atk=572

Edited December 17, 2020 by TheSignalEngineer

[dibber25]

A bit nondescript but I'm pretty certain this is also a 94XX. It's also on the Calne branch and its a troop train (another Don Lovelock picture). The previous shot was an engineers train, so maybe availability was an issue when extra trains were laid on and restrictions were 'more liberally interpreted '. The Calne branch had one bridge ( I think called Lord Carlisle's bridge) which seems to have been a little 'insubstantial' and might have been the limiting factor, although there was also an iron bridge (the Black Bridge) over the river just outside Chippenham. (CJL)

[Blobrick]

1 hour ago, dibber25 said:

A bit nondescript but I'm pretty certain this is also a 94XX. It's also on the Calne branch and its a troop train (another Don Lovelock picture). The previous shot was an engineers train, so maybe availability was an issue when extra trains were laid on and restrictions were 'more liberally interpreted '. The Calne branch had one bridge ( I think called Lord Carlisle's bridge) which seems to have been a little 'insubstantial' and might have been the limiting factor, although there was also an iron bridge (the Black Bridge) over the river just outside Chippenham. (CJL)

 

Hi Dibber, where do you keep finding these pictures?  They are smashing! however you could be on to something there, in that these photos represent extra working where  suitable motive power may have been an issue?

 

Thanks again for uploading the se photos

 

Bob C

[The Johnster]

The 94xx in this picture is banking, I think; this explains the lamp position and there is a plume of steam from the other end of the train, though the train loco is hidden by the curve. 

[Steamport Southport]

Or Top/Tailing, possibly so weight is distributed. I wonder what type the train engine was.

 

Certainly not a Light Engine movement which is what a single central bottom lamp would signify.

 

 

 

Jason

[Blobrick]

7 hours ago, The Johnster said:

The 94xx in this picture is banking, I think; this explains the lamp position and there is a plume of steam from the other end of the train, though the train loco is hidden by the curve. 

 

Well spotted that man, this makes the photo even more interesting!

[The Stationmaster]

8 hours ago, The Johnster said:

The 94xx in this picture is banking, I think; this explains the lamp position and there is a plume of steam from the other end of the train, though the train loco is hidden by the curve. 

But if you look at the position of the Driver, and even more so what the smoke leaving the chimney and where the exhaust is going (over the train) there is either an extremely strong tail wind or the train is coming towards the camera.  It would also be considerably easier to get a sharply focused picture of a train coming towards the photogrpaher rather than one running away from him.

 

I undestand that Mr Lovelock took quite a lot of photos on teh Calne branch and presumably he carefully catalogued them although obviously notes could go astray.

 

I think the position of the lamp tells its own story as well.  If it was a tail lamp it would almost inevitably have been put on the most convenient lamp bracket which would be over one buffer or the other and that of itself suggests t me that it could well be a headlamp placed on the most convenient lamp bracket which was at buffer beam level instead of climbing up to put it on the bracket at the top of the bunker.  That wasn't authorised on the Calne branch as far as I can trace although I have no detailed information for the branch pre 1960 but it was not an entirely unknown practice on Western branch lines - both where it was authorised and elsewhere especially on engiines running bunker first..

[The Johnster]

I believe it was authorised for some auto workings as well.   The driver’s stance does indeed suggests a loco running bunker first towards Mr Lovelock, but OTOH he is clearly aware of the photograph being taken (he is looking at the camera) and perhaps posing. 
 

The other clues are the sun’s position and the the trees.  The coaches have open droplights and vetilators, suggesting a warm day, and the length of shadows suggests fairly early morning or mid-evening.  If anyone who knows the Calne branch can identify the location, we might be able to determine which, but either suggests a recent departure or imminent arrival; troop trains in peacetime usually left after breakfast and arrived before dinner.  
 

The steam plume evidence is ambivalent; it is difficult to definitively identify it as coming from the 94xx, which is not to say that it isn’t, but my interpretation is that there is a loco at the other end of the train.  A nice crisp exhaust suggests the cool of morning, and the lamp is almost certainly a tail lamp, hence my suggestion of banking and the train going away from the photographer. 

[dibber25]

Before this goes any further down the route of conjecture, I should perhaps explain that Don was the son of the Station Master at Black Dog Halt (before anyone spouts about halts not having station masters, Black Dog was until 1952 the private station of the Landsdownes and their home Bowood House. The SM was appointed by the GWR and had to be approved by Lord Landsdowne). Don was brought up in the house beside the halt, was an avid enthusiast and recorded on camera all sorts of workings on the the branch. This particular shot is on the curve close to his home and I can assure you that if Don says it was a troop train (and he did say it was), that it IS a troop train and it is running bunker-first towards the camera. If the lamp is in the wrong place, in my experience (on the Staines branch) it was by no means unusual for crews to forget or not to bother moving lamps, especially once the branches were unstaffed, unsignalled and there were few, if any, staff to report the lapse. On page 79 of Colin Maggs' Calne branch book, there is a picture of 5566 waiting to depart Calne with the Saturdays-only 1.12pm to Weston-Super-Mare and the lamp is in the self-same position.

Thank you, Blobrick. Don died several years ago and his family have loaned me a box-full of his pictures. (CJL)

Edited December 19, 2020 by dibber25

[Blobrick]

You are welcome Dibber, l and no doubt a lot of other members on here, really appreciate you sharing these photos, so thank you too

 

Bob C

[The Johnster]

Chapter and verse, you can't ask for more than that.  A good illustration of the perils of interpreting photos, this features a class apparently banned from the branch, with incorrect lamping.

 

I still say the driver is posing, though...

[Blobrick]

On 15/12/2020 at 15:42, Blobrick said:

Just a quick question, to the RMweb membership in the off chance someone knows the answer?   

I ve come across a photo of a class 94xx (8492 built 1952 by R Stevenson under subcontract to Hudswell Clark) shunting at Wells station yard on the Cheddar Valley Line. The reference notes state that the loco has worked over the Cheddar line from Bristol to Wells which is a Blue route even though the loco is a Red route loco and therefore barred. Unfortunately there is no date on the photo, does anyone have any more information of this, or knows of over workings involving 94xxs over this line?

 

 

Bob C

Looks like we ve drawn a blank with 94xx s  on the Cheddar Valley Line,, but l d like to say thank you to all who contributed, l for one now have a better idea of the GWR's route markings!

 

Bob C

[Blandford1969]

I heard back from my source whose father worked at Wells loco as a driver. He said of the incident

 

".It was 8492 that worked to Wells on the afternoon goods from Bristol. Ex Bristol SPM cleaner/fireman D.Fleming (author of Raising the Echoes & St.Phillips Marsh ) wrote about it in a article in Steam World a few years ago can't remember the year but what I remember he said was a driver had failed a engine & they gave him 8492 he remembers after it had left a shout went up " who put it on the Wells goods"

 

Hope that helps