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Hornby 2021 - 4 & 6 wheel period coaches


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27 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

a mandarin duck or just some generic duck?

 

All generic ducks are Network Rail yellow, these coaches may be Mandarins as they're attractive non-native species considered to originate from the Orient.

 

Screenshot-20210104-054440-Samsung-Internet.jpg

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Les Bird said:

Almost certainly true given that some of Hornby's are already in stock

 

And it follows that Hornby would be researching/measuring/photographing Stroudley coaches in late 2019 as a 'go with' for the new Terrier. Perhaps after Hattons made their Genesis announcement Hornby saw an opportunity to beat them to the shelves in the same way as they did with the Rails Terrier.

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6 minutes ago, Les Bird said:

Almost certainly true given that some of Hornby's are already in stock

Not at all true, as already pointed out by an ex Hornby employee in this thread !!!!

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10 minutes ago, paulontheball said:

I'm building stock for a future Isle of Wight layout set in the late 1930s/start of WW2 period and considering what a mish-mash of secondhand, patched up and modified coaching stock they had at the time, I wondered if a set of these or the Hattons units in SR livery would work behind a Terrier or an O2? - any views?

I was thinking of using both the Hornby offerings and Hattons for my planned freelance Southern layout Colonel Stephens esq.

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4 minutes ago, 57xx said:

 

Hattons range was already at an advanced CAD stage when announced, Hornby were clearly no where near as advanced. Seems pretty obvious what the intent was.

Even if they were at an advanced CAD stage, it is irrelevant. They werent announced until Oct '19. I am not defending or decrying anyone. My own development experience still tells me that Hornby were already working on these BEFORE that date. The difference with Hornby and most other retailers and manufacturers is that they choose to only announce products that are at an advanced stage of development.  Whether that policy is right or wrong is a debate not for this thread.

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21 minutes ago, Denbridge said:

 Hattons announced their Genesis coaches in October 19. Hornby had surviving examples scanned in November 19. That suggests to me that Hornby were already working on these prior to Hattons announcing their range.

Time would need to be booked to have access to full size examples, and i doubt if scanning is the 1st stage of the process.

 That's my thinking too

 

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Can't see the problem Hornby have made those old 4 wheelers coaches for years, my dad as a photo of Noah in shorts playing with them.

And if your going to get into a pond and take away the big fishily dinner ticket don't be surprised if you get bitten

 

wasn't that long ago Hattons was the bad boy for undercutting the small retailers, but now Hornby are the bad boys for given Hattons a slap.

 

what ever you think, the modeller will have a choice and might even get a bargain.

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9 minutes ago, spiket4 said:

I was thinking of using both the Hornby offerings and Hattons for my planned freelance Southern layout Colonel Stephens esq.

I feel like one or both manufacturers could do well offering coaches in a generic livery for modellers interested in freelance companies. Perhaps a beaten-up brown or maroon livery with some faded numbers. They've done similar with some of their other stock in the past - several of their clerestory and 4-wheel coach releases haven't included company identification.

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16 minutes ago, 57xx said:

 

Hattons range was already at an advanced CAD stage when announced

 

If that was true then why was there a 10 month gap between announcement and the showing of CAD?

 

17 minutes ago, 57xx said:

 

Seems pretty obvious what the intent was.

 

You are right about that though, the intent is obvious. I assume you mean the intent was to make some pre-grouping 4 and 6 wheelers in an LBSC style to go with their terriers since no one else had announced any at the point of planning?

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1 hour ago, adrianmc said:

Just dug out my copy of Mike King's Southern Coaches Survey where there is a chapter on LB&SCR six-wheeled stock.

 

Going by the numbers on the SR liveried stock we have:

 

SR No 7514 32ft 4-compartment 1st - SR Diag 507/508/509

SR No 1908 32ft 5-compartment 3rd - SR Diag 63

SR No 1909 32ft 5-compartment 3rd - SR Diag 63

SR No 3750 32ft 3-compartment Brake 3rd - SR Diag 176/177

 

Going by the elevations in the book for each of the above diagrams the Hornby coaches seem spot on for the panelling arrangements. As already pointed out earlier in the thread the models lack the distinctive LB&SCR "tall" grab rails at each doorway replacing them with a more generic type.

 

The four wheel brake from Hornby seems to be completely generic as SR No 762 was a Billington 30ft 6 wheel Guards Van with a central ducket (SR Diag 901). 

 

 

The four-wheel brake looks to me to be similar to a D47/222 full brake, stretched from 20' to fit a 26' underframe by the addition of a few extra panels (although I'll admit the panelling isn't quite perfect at the luggage compartment doors as Stroudley did some interesting narrow panels for the door grooves). 

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There seems to be a huge demand for the Hattons genesis range. I firmly believe these new Hornby offerings will compliment rather than compete with Hattons. 

Any time studying photos will show the huge variety of styles used by the railway companies. So, for those happy with generic vehicles, these two sets of offerings will allow buyers to build a representative train.

Sure, id rather have seen an accurate set of GW ( or insert your favourite company), but im pretty certain both Hornby and Hattons will sell loads of these.

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2 minutes ago, farren said:

Can't see the problem Hornby have made those old 4 wheelers coaches for years, my dad as a photo of Noah in shorts playing with them.

And if your going to get into a pond and take away the big fishily dinner ticket don't be surprised if you get bitten

 

wasn't that long ago Hattons was the bad boy for undercutting the small retailers, but now Hornby are the bad boys for given Hattons a slap.

 

what ever you think, the modeller will have a choice and might even get a bargain.

The Hatton's range, even though generic, will be in an entirely different class to Hornby's old pre-school  caricature. They've also taken great pains to ensure (and reassure us) that theirs will go round corners.

 

I look forward to being able to pick up the new Hornby ones as cheap conversion fodder, the old ones are barely fit even for that....

 

John

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3 minutes ago, BlueLightning said:

 

If that was true then why was there a 10 month gap between announcement and the showing of CAD?

 

 

You are right about that though, the intent is obvious. I assume you mean the intent was to make some pre-grouping 4 and 6 wheelers in an LBSC style to go with their terriers since no one else had announced any at the point of planning?

See my other point about Hornby only announcing models at an advanced stage of development.  Other firms make their announcements at much earlier stages.

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10 minutes ago, farren said:

Can't see the problem Hornby have made those old 4 wheelers coaches for years, my dad as a photo of Noah in shorts playing with them.

 

 

No they haven't!

 

They only '4 wheeled coaches' Hornby have ever made is a cast metal SDJR 3 compartment first body plonked on a brake van chassis.

 

The newly announced coaches come with a variety of different bodies and a reasonably well detailed underframe - very different beats from ANYTHING Hornby has previously made.

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Yes, why not go for generic shorty bogie clerestories and fill a real gap in the market?  That said, I confidently predict that a train of the LNER versions behind a Bachmann J72 will become the branch line/light railway cliche  train on every LNER exhibition layout next year.  Imaginary carriages in an imaginary livery (should be teak brown) behind a loco that never worked branchline trains (should be a  J71) - but it looks incredibly cute!

 

One niggle - Hatton were totally upfront in their publicity that their models were generic.  Hornby, on the other hand, are being much less err... clear in the publicity text above, where the weasel word “represents” is doing a *lot* of heavy lifting. Especially re the LNER versions, where they are claiming that these are ex-GNR - which they absolutely are not.
 

On the wish list thread many respondents to my fantasy of Hornby entering N said that they would “have to” do that with a complete range - again, why?  Something like these carriages would be an ideal foot on the door to go with Union Mills’ range of small locos.   But, again, OT.

 

Richard

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What heated discussions we are all having. Steam heated perchance?

 

I shall buy some of both ranges - this does not encourage me to cancel the orders I have with Hattons and I shall also be picking up some Hornby examples too. Room for all

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3 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

 

I look forward to being able to pick up the new Hornby ones as cheap conversion fodder, the old ones are barely fit even for that....

 

John

 

I don't know which is more likely to win outl I would say its split with the modeller. However my guess is mum and dad will see the little red box first and know the name,  time will tell. though i have to say for now I would go with Hattons coaches as they do the ones that can run with my Bachmann brake down crian.   

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I see these as complementary to the Hattons products. Small, bijou tank locos have had a good run in RTR 4mm in recent years, yet no period coaches of equivalent quality were to be had. How long since Dapol first released a Terrier?  How many have been sold - by them, by Hornby, by Rails? Plenty of older versions change hands on ebay. No doubt other companies' tiny tanks have also been around for a while, too. This is a deep, wide pool, and I expect both manufacturers to do quite well. 

 

If you want to feel sorry for someone, you might spare a thought for the chap on the IoW who makes decent Stroudley coach kits, since both of these ranges are going to upstage his products a little. 

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They wouldn't dream of doing this with generic locomotives (though Hornby International did by releasing a Spanish 0-4-0T repainted as a mythical SNCF "020TJ") which I suppose tells us something about where railway model collectors' interest in rolling stock begins and ends. 

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24 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

No they haven't!

 

They only '4 wheeled coaches' Hornby have ever made is a cast metal SDJR 3 compartment first body plonked on a brake van chassis.

 

The newly announced coaches come with a variety of different bodies and a reasonably well detailed underframe - very different beats from ANYTHING Hornby has previously made.

 

You're forgetting Hornby's 3 compartment hyper short coaches.

 

Hornby have been selling these in various liveries for decades.  Totally toy like and unconvincing so the new ones from Hattons and Hornby are a great want filled.

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6 minutes ago, GreenGiraffe22 said:

And anyway if you order the Hornby 'generics' through Hattons they get your money either way, so win win for them!?

 

I doubt it.  More like an assuaging of some loss as under their own commission they would have made the producer margin as well as the sales margin.  

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It would appear that Hattons and Hornby might well be hoisted by their own petard.  I guess it'll be whatever is on the shelves at the time.  If Hattons/Hornby are out of stock, then.....

 

Those Western 4-wheel brakes appear interesting. The full brake? Err....  But the passenger version? T48? I forsee some serious kit bashing in the future. If these are generic coaches, it won't be long before Western modellers start looking for their Mountford books  (Turns around, and finds his copy ). 

 

I'd suggest taking a chill-pill, stand back, and await events.  

 

Like others, I'm curious as to what likely locomotive power we'll see.  Oxford N7?  Thinking on this, perhaps it's a taster for what's likely to arrive from Hornby in the next few years. A bit of joined-up thinking by Hornby? Spot-on.  I can think of a xxxx, and then the xxxx Company. Almost forgot! There's xxxx as well!

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