Hornby 2021 - 4 & 6 wheel period coaches

[The Johnster]

On 05/01/2021 at 11:31, PhilJ W said:

I would like to see them side by side with the Hattons coaches to see if I can spot the differences. For myself I am looking for some stock to run with the Oxford railway gun so I will probably select examples from both Hornby and Hattons and repaint them.

You'll be able to tell the difference from the window profiles.  My impression is that the general appearance of the Hatton's coaches is that they are inteneded to represent a slightly earlier period than the Hornby's, but that they would stil have been in service at the same time and would probably have run in the same formations.  Automatic brakes became a requirement following the Armagh accident in 1889, and my senise of this is that the Hatton's style predates that by a few years and the Hornby post dates it by a few.

[The Johnster]

On 05/01/2021 at 12:06, Kris said:

At some point in the future I might well pick up a train for the GWR ones knowing that they are not accurate, but knowing that they would look lovely on a small layout. 

A good point, Kris.  Both these and the Hattons 4/6 wheelers are very well suited to smaller layouts, and it my belief, nay, hope, that they will engerder interest in earlier periods, which have much to commend them in terms of space saving.

[The Johnster]

On 05/01/2021 at 14:06, Denbridge said:

 Hattons announced their Genesis coaches in October 19. Hornby had surviving examples scanned in November 19. That suggests to me that Hornby were already working on these prior to Hattons announcing their range.

Time would need to be booked to have access to full size examples, and i doubt if scanning is the 1st stage of the process.

Even if Hornby were workig on this project before Hattons announced theirs, it is probable that Hattons started work on their project before Hornby started on theirs, assuming that both were at roughtly the same stage of develepment at the time that each were announced.  There is probably no point in announcing a model until the design and production engineering have been determined and production slots in Chinese factories booked, and I would assume that this stage had  been reached when both announcements were made.

 

Scanning is probably not the first stage; firstly, a decision is made to investigate the marketing aspects, so market research and sales predictions, then a managerial decision to give the project a green light, and then the research and developement, including the scanning.  Then the scans are used to develop CAD drawings for the factories, and the production engineers design efficient tooling and assembly methods, factory slots booked, engineering and livery prototypes made, and then sit back and wait for the container to arrive so you can crack on with the distribution.  Bachmann apart, this process seems to take about 3 years, with the initial stages culminating in the scanning probably the first 6 months.

[MGR Hooper!]

21 hours ago, Frank Sharp said:

 

Hornby did this with Rails. Rails announced a Terrier and Hornby quietly did theirs to arrive just before. 

 

 

Completely untrue... The Hornby Terrier didn't start out as a Hornby project at all. As per one of the magazines and various other sources the Terrier was initially an Oxford Rail project. It was later passed on to Hornby to complete and release.

 

Almost all Hornby "duplicated" models have actually been started on before their rivals did. It's just unfortunate that Hornby make an annual announcement and therefore they end up announcing theirs after the rival company. This just gives trolls and conspiracy theorists a chance to "prove" that Hornby are duplicating a rival company. 

 

And let's be honest even if ABC announces a model of XYZ and Hornby decides to let people know that they have already been working on it (rather than wait for the January announcement date) , the trolls would still blame Hornby for trying to steal the limelight EG: L&MR 3rd CLASS OPEN CARRIAGE.

 

Either way it seems that whatever Hornby does is wrong and what everyone else does/says is correct. 

Edited January 7, 2021 by MGR Hooper!

[The Johnster]

On 05/01/2021 at 15:45, Pmorgancym said:

Now if they'd upgraded the open cab pannier and the J52 that would have made some nice train packs.

And  I’d have definitely sprung for an upgraded 2721 half cab!

[The Johnster]

On 05/01/2021 at 13:15, Chuffed 1 said:

One point for the more knowledgeable, did many 4w and 6w coaches last long enough for crimson livery?

Some GW 4 wheelers were repainted in crimson at Caerphilly Works for miner’s workman’s trains on the Senghenydd and Glyncorrwg branches, Glyncorrwg seeing the last in service. 

[Steamport Southport]

Caledonian Railway four wheelers lasted until the 1950s. Although they were new in 1921 and quite modern compared to others.

 

Some even got the SC number M and possibly got a coat of paint in 1949. One of the photos in the prototype notes link certainly look like they are in BR livery.

 

 

http://www.caleycoaches.co.uk/balerno.php

 

 

Jason

[The Johnster]

21 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

The clue to its inappropriateness is in the name.

 

Hornby's range is somewhat lacking in bread-and-butter locomotives - the J15 being an honourable exception.

Not really.  ‘Goods’ is a Victorian term for general purpose mixed traffic 0-6-0s with driving wheels in the 5’2”-5’3” ball park with vacuum or Westinghouse brakes, used for passenger teains as well as goods.  The GW’s Dean Goods, for example, for many years did all the passenger work on the Mid Wales and the Newport-Brecon route. 

[Dunsignalling]

On 05/01/2021 at 10:34, MikeParkin65 said:

Both in terms of duplication and not of any specific prototype. In fact is a model of something that doesnt exist a model at all?

On a similar basis, is the Angel of the North a statue?

 

By the literal definition, an electric "locomotive" is nothing of the kind because it doesn't move under its own power, merely processing that which is supplied to it from an external source.

 

If they are not locomotives then presumably, what we operate can't be "model locomotives" whatever the external shape. So that's pretty much all r-t-r done for then. 

 

John

 

 

Edited January 7, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[Compound2632]

4 hours ago, The Johnster said:

You'll be able to tell the difference from the window profiles.  My impression is that the general appearance of the Hatton's coaches is that they are inteneded to represent a slightly earlier period than the Hornby's, but that they would stil have been in service at the same time and would probably have run in the same formations.  Automatic brakes became a requirement following the Armagh accident in 1889, and my senise of this is that the Hatton's style predates that by a few years and the Hornby post dates it by a few.

 

I don't quite see how you get that impression. The Hattons carriages embody features typical of carriages built in the 1880s and 90s; the Hornby carriages, in so far as they are based n a prototype, are being said to represent carriages built in the 1870s.

 

As to brakes, the Hattons carriages have a much fuller representation of the automatic vacuum brake than do the Hornby carriages of wither vacuum or Westinghouse. The Hattons carriages started out with a representation of the Westinghouse brake cylinder but this was changed to vacuum when it was pointed out that Westinghouse lines were in a minority, so vacuum is more generic.

 

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

Not really.  ‘Goods’ is a Victorian term for general purpose mixed traffic 0-6-0s with driving wheels in the 5’2”-5’3” ball park with vacuum or Westinghouse brakes, used for passenger teains as well as goods.  The GW’s Dean Goods, for example, for many years did all the passenger work on the Mid Wales and the Newport-Brecon route. 

 

I was really just trying to point out that there's a dearth of small Victorian passenger tender engines. As to passenger tank engines, one can count the LBSC Class A, LSW 415, O2, and M7 classes, L&Y Class 5, LNW Coal Tank, and now Midland 1532 Class, although not all of these are presented in the condition they would have been in when hauling trains made up of 6-wheeled carriages.

Edited January 7, 2021 by Compound2632

[eldomtom2]

10 hours ago, Mel_H said:

Hattons, Hornby and now....

 

Anyone for a 'generic' 4-wheel coach from Bachmann?

 

Due this month, they are in BR red with a compartment coach and a brake coach with end lookout duckets. And, at only a tad under £30 each from Model Railways Direct (other stores may be available) ! 

These are actually (through a long chain of events) copies of Tennmille Gauge 1 kits for LBSC Stroudley coaches.

[phil-b259]

5 hours ago, MGR Hooper! said:

 

That is highly incorrect. The Hornby Terrier didn't start out as a Hornby project at all. As per one of the magazines and various other sources the Terrier was initially an Oxford Rail project. It was later passed on to Hornby to complete and release.

 

Almost all Hornby "duplicated" models have actually been started on before their rivals did. It's just unfortunate that Hornby make an annual announcement and therefore they end up announcing theirs after the rival company. This just gives trolls and conspiracy theorists a chance to "prove" that Hornby are duplicating a rival company. 

 

And let's be honest even if ABC announces a model of XYZ and Hornby decides to let people know that they have already been working on it (rather than wait for the January announcement date) , the trolls would still blame Hornby for trying to steal the limelight EG: L&MR 3rd CLASS OPEN CARRIAGE.

 

Either way it seems that whatever Hornby does is wrong and what everyone else does/says is correct. 

 

I don't buy that assertion.

 

I agree that with the terrier and the LMR carriage Hornby were working on it before Rails made their announcements - but in both cases I believe that Hornby subsequently accelerated their development / bought forward the release dates when Rails went public. That is not a criticism, given the alternative would be to write off considerable amounts of money if Hornby called a halt to either project its quite logical.

 

The case is rather different with the 4 wheeled stock - I do grant that Hornby may have been working on some Stroudley stock (which is logical as it complements its Terriers), but it seems clear to me that their transformation into 'Generic' stock is indeed an attempt to muscle in on sales of the Hattons product.

 

It might make financial sense for shareholders but this is unfortunate - Hornbys product looks inferior to the Hattons one in quality / finesse (probably due to being rushed) while consumers miss out on proper Stroudley stock. Consequently I admit that in this particular case I'm disappointed with Hornby - as it seems premeditated rather than accidental.

Edited January 7, 2021 by phil-b259

[Compound2632]

10 minutes ago, eldomtom2 said:

These are actually (through a long chain of events) copies of Tennmille Gauge 1 kits for LBSC Stroudley coaches.

 

Yes indeed, and the Thomas coaches have been used as the basis of really rather passable models of Stroudley block trains:

Also the subject of an ancient K's kit. So they've been rather over-done for their limited sphere of operation.

[boxbrownie]

17 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Sorry - but it seemed to start as an unboxing video ... 

Go stand at the back if the class and think about what you said......

[BlueLightning]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

Thomas coaches have been used as the basis of really rather passable models of Stroudley block trains

 

Having you say that about my carriages feels like true praise indeed! They look even better now that I have got transfers on them (although no lining, I'm not good enough at that yet)

 

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, BlueLightning said:

Having you say that about my carriages feels like true praise indeed!

 

Sorry, yes, I have been criticised for being a bit stinting with praise, so you rightly decode "really rather passable" as meaning "very good indeed"!

[adb968008]

So much debate about these coaches...

 

but I dont see much conversation about how many rakes of each people are going to buy.

 

Indeed people arent even discussing merits of buying lit vs unlit.

 

Are people planning to buy all 372 Hattons and all 82 Hornby versions ?

 

its certainly the most ambitious range of coaches in oo gauge history..  no ones ever made so many versions of so few prototypes that I can recall.. it beats the mk1 by a long mile... and theyve been made of 5 decades.

 

so much euphoria, but I wonder if it will end as a cash bleed.. I cant see most people buying more than 1 or 2 sets.. which is what.. 10 coaches from 454 variants on offer...

Even Lima, didnt make all 512 class 47’s, but at around 100 it felt like it, and that still took a decade.

 

Edited January 7, 2021 by adb968008

[wainwright1]

9 minutes ago, BlueLightning said:

 

Having you say that about my carriages feels like true praise indeed! They look even better now that I have got transfers on them (although no lining, I'm not good enough at that yet)

 

 

They certainly look good.

 

Ray

[SteamingWales]

8 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

So much debate about these coaches...

 

but I dont see much conversation about how many rakes of each people are going to buy.

 

Indeed people arent even discussing merits of buying lit vs unlit

 

To settle your curiosity.

 

I will be buying 0 Hornby coaches, got a Hattons Departmental livery on pre-order and yet to decide on a pre grouping rake.

 

All unlit

[Nile]

9 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

but I dont see much conversation about how many rakes of each people are going to buy.

Good, I find such posts rather boring.

As for the lights, all they do is highlight the lack of passengers in them. I'll stick with unlit ones, the lights would hardly get used anyway.

[phil-b259]

15 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

So much debate about these coaches...

 

but I dont see much conversation about how many rakes of each people are going to buy.

 

Indeed people arent even discussing merits of buying lit vs unlit.

 

Are people planning to buy all 372 Hattons and all 82 Hornby versions ?

 

its certainly the most ambitious range of coaches in oo gauge history..  no ones ever made so many versions of so few prototypes that I can recall.. it beats the mk1 by a long mile... and theyve been made of 5 decades.

 

so much euphoria, but I wonder if it will end as a cash bleed.. I cant see most people buying more than 1 or 2 sets.. which is what.. 10 coaches from 454 variants on offer...

Even Lima, didnt make all 512 class 47’s, but at around 100 it felt like it, and that still took a decade.

 

 

Having invested in small locos like the P, H, Terrier, 1P in pre grouping liveries then I will be purchasing quite a number of Hatton's coaches in SECR, LSBCR, and MR variants.

 

In fact it was the prospect of MR examples which prompted the decision to by the MR 1P anyway. Similarly an IOW SR terrier was purchased largely because of the Hattons SR liveried ones.

 

If Hattons do SDJR as per the planned 'batch 3' then thats another half a dozen or so to go with the colectors club 1P...

 

 

Edited January 7, 2021 by phil-b259

[Hal Nail]

23 minutes ago, Nile said:

Good, I find such posts rather boring.

Agreed but in fairness, the context was "are all these versions actually going to sell?"

[BlueLightning]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

but I dont see much conversation about how many rakes of each people are going to buy.

 

I'll have ordered all the Hornby LBSC liveried ones, and I will order more if they do more in LBSC livery in the future. The same goes for Hattons in SECR livery. Both sets unlit, however I may add lighting to them at a later date.

 

Gary

[GreenGiraffe22]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

 

but I dont see much conversation about how many rakes of each people are going to buy.

 

 

One Southern Hornby 4 wheeled brake

One Southern Hatton's 6 wheeled Tool van

Both for department use 

That's about all that will be useful to me I think ?

Being in Southern livery they could have come from any former pre grouping company that got absorbed by the Southern.

 

Maybe a couple of Southern Hatton's brakes for the crew on military tank trains in due course unless an actual prototype appears on the RTR market.

[PhilJ W]

I haven't yet decided what ones I will have but probably a couple from each range. This will be to go with my rail gun together with a few goods/ferry vans. The only thing missing is a suitable bogie coach for the officer I/C but I'm looking at some of the Ratio offerings.