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Hornby 2021 - 4 & 6 wheel period coaches


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18 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Even odder when you remember that they've released two different engines in SE&CR livery:scratchhead:   But I suspect that sort of logic might not come into it when you see the anachronistic  'GWR' Terrier set but seemingly no set with a Terrier and LB&SCR like(ish) coaches in the far more logical LB&SCR livery combination.   I would have thought it a far more joined-up way of doing things to start by releasing generic Pre-Group liveried coaches to go with the engines you've already sold than doing them to for something else.  And why not a set of a J15 with some in early BR. livery - not far off the realoty of the Mid Suffolk where the last 6 wheelers ran in every day servivce?

 

I'm guessing the fact that the Lyme Regis branch packs (of a black radial and a pair of the ex-LSW rebuilds) hanging around for ages is the reason they didnt go with a pack of the LSWR Terrier with matching 4-wheelers? 

 

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If we are talking personal likely intentions .....

 

My plans were, and remain, one each of the Hattons to be repainted in freelance livery to supplement my 4 and 6-wheel Triang hacks. I have seen something of what has gone into the design of the Hattons coaches.  I think they will be stunning.  I suspect, like the rival Terriers, I'll be better waiting for what seems likely to be the higher-spec version rather than succumbing to impatience.

 

Of course, if I think the Hornby coaches are as good and get me something the Hattons don't, I'll be open to them too.  So far it is not obvious that they do.  The panel style of the Hattons is a better fit for me (in terms of the Hornby brake coaches where the vertical panels leave no waist band).  I really like the elongated Stroudleyesque full brake, as I have said, and will probably buy one because of that, though I'm not sure where it would fit with my projects. Perhaps a second freelance company or an extra phase in my Line's otherwise logical evolution of carriage styles!?!

 

I suppose it is hard to see why any of us would need 2 such ranges giving very similar coverage. Though one range may suit a particular modeller better than another in any given instance, that's still a lot of needless overlap.  I like the idea, raised by some, of generic panelled bogie coaches.  Something in the 42'-50' range, non-corridor, would have been really useful and arguably a better use of resources. But still, we are where we are. 

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12 minutes ago, JohnR said:

 

I'm guessing the fact that the Lyme Regis branch packs (of a black radial and a pair of the ex-LSW rebuilds) hanging around for ages is the reason they didnt go with a pack of the LSWR Terrier with matching 4-wheelers? 

 

 

That is a bit of a silly comparison - for starters people who model the BR era don't tend to also tend to have a need for pre grouping liveries!

 

The reason the Lyme Regis packs were slow sellers probably had more to do with the flooding of the market for Adams Radials (a class of 2 / 3 used on only one branch line) by Oxford and Hornby and the fact the coaches were also available as separate items.

 

However to return to the subject of Hornbys 4 / 6 wheelers, and particularly the train pack, the more you think about it Hornbys selection is just plain daft. They could have done:-

 

LSWR terrier and LSWR stock

LBSCR terrier and LBSCR stock

SECR terrier and SECR stock

SR terrier and SR stock

 

all of which would have been far more logical than the GWR terrier and stock they did chose!

Edited by phil-b259
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I have some Bachmann coaches awaiting repainting into LBSC livery, but had the Hornby announcement come sooner then I'd probably get a rake of theirs.

 

As it is, I could use some pre-Grouping coaches for a planned freelance layout set in the Port of London in the late 50s. Historically, the London and Blackwall Railway had very tight clearances, such that Gresley Quint-Arts couldn't be used. So I was thinking I'd get one of the Hornby brake coaches in BR (E) livery and a Hattons 4-wheeler in LNER brown to represent some beaten-up pre-Grouping stock pressed into service as a passenger train. In reality, such trains had long since lost their passengers to trams and buses, but I just like those oddities.

Edited by HonestTom
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By the time the Radials took up residence on the Lyme Regis branch they (in Drummond livery) were paired with short non-corridor bogie coaches in a 2-set.

 

So, again, perhaps short pannelled bogie coaches would have been a good idea?

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4 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

That is a bit of a silly comparison - for starters people who model the BR era don't tend to also tend to have a need for pre grouping liveries!

 

 

My tongue was somewhat tongue in cheek, especially at trying to make some logic out of Hornby's marketing decisions!

 

As it happens, I can think that there might be some BR era modellers who will be interested. I got the LSWR Terrier for Christmas - and am now bitten by the pre-grouping (at least in so far as it pertains to my area of interest). If there had been a pack of a LSWR Terrier (hopefuly 734, as I already have 735), and some 4/6 wheel coaches, I would have bitten their hands off!

 

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32 minutes ago, JohnR said:

 

I'm guessing the fact that the Lyme Regis branch packs (of a black radial and a pair of the ex-LSW rebuilds) hanging around for ages is the reason they didnt go with a pack of the LSWR Terrier with matching 4-wheelers? 

 

Problem with the Lyme Regis train pack was that all the ingredients had been released well before it.

 

I'd already bought three Radials and a pair of coaches earlier. I did eventually buy the train pack (at a good discount) but only because I wanted 30583 with Drummond boiler and early crest. The one sold on its own is late condition after all the old Adams bits had been transferred to it preparatory to preservation.  

 

I now have more of the things than BR did, and I'll be in the market for another if Hornby ever get round to doing 30584 in unlined black with "BRITISH RAILWAYS" on it.

 

John

Edited by Dunsignalling
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1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

So much debate about these coaches...

 

but I dont see much conversation about how many rakes of each people are going to buy.

 

 

I can easily answer this one from my own perspective. If Hornby had done a proper job of a set of Stroudleys I would have bought a LBSC rake to give an E4 I spuriously bought a purpose. But they've kind of botched them as proper Stroudleys at the last hurdle, so my interest is stone cold for the LBSC livery. First and foremost for me, there are the LMS livery coaches. As 'generic' coaches I feel better they suit the grouping period where everything came together under one roof so the origins of where a coach came from can become lost under the livery of amalgamation. Thats two 6 coach rakes plus a handful of the full brakes of Hattons coaches, and even if Hornby did theirs in LMS livery in a future batch I really can't stomach a very obvious Southern constituent dolled up in LMS livery. To coin the football related analogy, I'd rather have a Fruit of the Loom one size fits all in Birmingham City kit colours than a Villa shirt in City colours. Same applies to LNWR stock while I work on a short rake of 51L/Chowbent/Wizard bogies for the forthcoming Precedent. Besides, Hornbys effort looks distinctly Scottish to me and would sit better with their blue Single.

 

NCB livery perhaps as I do enjoy some colliery paddy action. Sorry, I have a 51L D333 based on the Cannock example in the works for my fix in that. So thats nil for both H & H on that front. Plus the engineering survivors that made far and wide it into BR, which Hornby has shown zero interest in thus far.

 

For me, its 24 Hattons vehicles across 4 livery variants vs 0 from Hornby, if you want to put a number to it. ;)

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To be honest, my purchase of a LSWR Terrier has been made all the more likely thanks to Hornbys release of the 4whl coaches. They will do fine until the Hattons LSWR coaches are released and they can then run alongside each other. 

 

I think from a distance they will be okay.......but thats just me....

 

Now if Hornby did a Radial in Drummond LSWR livery..............(or Maunsell SR livery to be honest ) 

 

 

Edited by NHY 581
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2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

So much debate about these coaches...

 

but I dont see much conversation about how many rakes of each people are going to buy.

 

Indeed people arent even discussing merits of buying lit vs unlit.

 

Are people planning to buy all 372 Hattons and all 82 Hornby versions ?

 

its certainly the most ambitious range of coaches in oo gauge history..  no ones ever made so many versions of so few prototypes that I can recall.. it beats the mk1 by a long mile... and theyve been made of 5 decades.

 

so much euphoria, but I wonder if it will end as a cash bleed.. I cant see most people buying more than 1 or 2 sets.. which is what.. 10 coaches from 454 variants on offer...


Even Lima, didnt make all 512 class 47’s, but at around 100 it felt like it, and that still took a decade.

 

 

One "rake"  or less for each corresponding loco.

 

If someone has a larger collection of locos than they can put out on their layout at any one time, then why buy more coaches, especially as the range for any one railway is limited. So if you have an LNWR Coal Tank and a LNWR precedent, then you will probably only have one rake of LNWR six wheelers.

 

This is a very loco centric hobby and from helping one manufacturer of 4mm pre-grouping kits at shows over many years, I know that the quantity of carriage kits sold isn't in the correct prototypical relationship to loco kits sold. 

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17 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

... from the late 20s onwards. A class of 74 in their prime, spread across the LSWR.

 

 

 

I was referring to the BR era and the slow selling train pack.

 

At the time 4 / 6 wheelers were in mainstream use on the LSWR then of course far more Radials were in service across the LSWR network.

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10 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

I was referring to the BR era and the slow selling train pack.

 

At the time 4 / 6 wheelers were in mainstream use on the LSWR then of course far more Radials were in service across the LSWR network.

 

Well, you could use 4-wheelers and a Radial in the released Adams livery to represent LSW suburban block sets.  Nothing will be quite right, and I find it hard to be expressing a view on suitability when nothing can be more than a rough approximation.  Perhaps I finally understand how non-plussed P4 modellers must feel when we OO gaugers talk of accuracy!

 

Clearly some combinations, and formations, even using generic stock, will be more appropriate than others.  I still think people will have a lot of fun with these ranges.

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1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

By the time the Radials took up residence on the Lyme Regis branch they (in Drummond livery) were paired with short non-corridor bogie coaches in a 2-set.

 

So, again, perhaps short pannelled bogie coaches would have been a good idea?

 

I totally agree, as they were definitely knocking around until post war. 

 

Regarding the Lyme Regis branch, from the pictures I have seen, it appears to be 4/6 wheel stock being hauled by the Terriers (admittedly only from 1903-07) - the Radials not appearing until 1913. 

 

 

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I wonder if they might do the Radial in SR olive finally to go with these, I can hope! ;) I waited on a Hornby version as I preferred their full boiler but nuffin so far, I’m still holding out though :D


 

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10 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

I wonder if they might do the Radial in SR olive finally to go with these, I can hope! ;) I waited on a Hornby version as I preferred their full boiler but nuffin so far, I’m still holding out though :D


 

Would be lovely if they'd do the Radial in LSWR Drummond green too, to go with the LSWR liveried carriages. That being said, I've not long finished repainting my Radial, so was half expecting it to be announced in this livery this year!

 

Adams Radial.jpg

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4 hours ago, Nile said:

Time for Kernow or EFE Rail to knock out an O2 in LSWR livery. It doesn't have to be absolutely correct, after all the coaches won't be.

Ditto for the Beattie Well Tank - both that and the O2 would look beautiful in LSWR livery and, who knows, if demand is there the manufacturers might see fit to do the necessary tooling tweaks for perfect accuracy. 70-80% accurate would be a lot better than nothing for now. Indeed, some gate leg stock in LSWR would be lovely too, even without the modified ends.

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7 hours ago, adb968008 said:

So much debate about these coaches...

 

but I dont see much conversation about how many rakes of each people are going to buy.

 

Modelling the GN I won't be buying any of the 'GN' liveried 4 or 6 wheelers as they're too far removed from reality (same for the LNWR)  I will try and pick up anything which is a second/bargain so I can see if they can be 'bashed' into something that represents some 1860's Met Cam coaches the GN acquired. The trouble is that at £27 each it's probably easier to just draw and get them etched although it'll probably be fun trying.

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1 hour ago, AVS1998 said:

I must confess I'm reasonably impressed with these carriages, but I'm far from an expert on Brightonian vehicles, the SECR being my line of preference. Indeed, I've ordered two of the Hattons full six-wheel brakes, one in GNR  (for rebranding into LCDR livery with SECR lettering) and one in SECR, for sandwiching a coach set. 

 

However, after studying Ian White's Volume One of LBSCR carriages and with help from a few people, I feel a little more confident about recognising specific diagrams in the Hornby line-up. If I do buy anything, which I may as a birthday present to myself, I'd likely try to represent a general Hastings set with the six-wheelers. The lavatory carriage is redundant for anyone modelling LBSC post-1910, however, unless they wanted to cut-and-shut a pair with a third class carriage - all 14 were rebuilt into tri-comp lavatories at this time. 

 

The livery is too early for me, too, so I expect I would buy NBR examples and repaint them. 

 

I must agree with other commenters, however - these carriages are pretty but also pretty niche. I'd rather have seen a bogie carriage attempt made, with Fox bogies. Imagine how useful a spares number they would have been! 

 

 - Alex

 

Yes, if generic bogie coaches were attempted, 8' Fox bogies would be an excellent choice - the nearest thing to a generic pre-Grouping bogie I should have thought!

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7 hours ago, adb968008 said:

So much debate about these coaches...

 

but I dont see much conversation about how many rakes of each people are going to buy.

 

Indeed people arent even discussing merits of buying lit vs unlit.

 

Are people planning to buy all 372 Hattons and all 82 Hornby versions ?

 

its certainly the most ambitious range of coaches in oo gauge history..  no ones ever made so many versions of so few prototypes that I can recall.. it beats the mk1 by a long mile... and theyve been made of 5 decades.

 

so much euphoria, but I wonder if it will end as a cash bleed.. I cant see most people buying more than 1 or 2 sets.. which is what.. 10 coaches from 454 variants on offer...


Even Lima, didnt make all 512 class 47’s, but at around 100 it felt like it, and that still took a decade.

 

 

To be honest, Hornby has twisted my arm with the LNER coaches. They would go well alongside their existing wood stock for variety. I'm down for a good set of 10+ unlit coaches over time for a planned small layout. However, I am also staying loyal to the Hattons + Compound's coaches (he helped a lot  to design them). Different needs can be given from both and both look really well made.

 

Personally, the Hattons pre-war brown coaches can fill a slot that they were around longer than Hornby's, giving the sense that they could no longer be teaked but were still pressed in service. Hornby's teak are a newer refined addition that could have been created on company demand. Then again, rule one can always apply! :P

 

This may be everyones chance to show exactly what coach they want; the more interest shown, the more likely that actual prototype representations could appear future-wise. Heres hoping someones taking notice!! 

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7 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

That is a bit of a silly comparison - for starters people who model the BR era don't tend to also tend to have a need for pre grouping liveries!

 

I model the BR era, but ...
I live slap-bang in SECR territory: I can see the mid-Kent line out of my back bedroom windows. So in my opinion it is natural for me to want a few SECR rakes pulled by SECR locos to run over my BR layout now and again. After all, it's my model railway and I'll run what I like. 

Edited by Budgie
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I'll be going for a pair from both manufacturers - two LNER Brown 6 wheelers from Hattons, and two BR Crimson 6 wheelers from Hornby. Got my pre-order in for the Hornby ones today, really looking forward to them. 

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Loads of missed "train pack" opportunities here:

 

"Lyme Regis Branch" - LSWR Terrier and four wheelers.

"LSWR Suburban" - LSWR Adams Radial and four wheelers.

"LBSCR Suburban" - IEG Terrier with four wheelers.

"Mid Suffolk Light Railway" - BR J15, two crimson six wheelers and a Toad B.

 

Instead they've gone for the one combination which makes the least sense!

 

Someone noted above that the J15 was a slow seller; I think this was simply because they over produced models in that period, rather than a reflection of low consumer demand. The LSWR 700 and the K1 seem to have suffered similarly.

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31 minutes ago, nathan70000 said:

Loads of missed "train pack" opportunities here:

 

"Lyme Regis Branch" - LSWR Terrier and four wheelers.

"LSWR Suburban" - LSWR Adams Radial and four wheelers.

"LBSCR Suburban" - IEG Terrier with four wheelers.

"Mid Suffolk Light Railway" - BR J15, two crimson six wheelers and a Toad B.

 

Instead they've gone for the one combination which makes the least sense!

 

Someone noted above that the J15 was a slow seller; I think this was simply because they over produced models in that period, rather than a reflection of low consumer demand. The LSWR 700 and the K1 seem to have suffered similarly.

 

But it's the only one of those which will sell. People will buy them just for the GWR Terrier regardless of the carriages. I'm doing just that. Couldn't care less about the fake carriages.

 

All those other locomotives are already available. Most at heavy discounts.

 

Are people really going to put their hands in their pockets and run out to buy a BR J15 or an Adams Radial Tank when you can get one for £60? Or a bit more for a LSWR or LBSC Terrier. Rails were even selling those for £60 the other week as part of the Advent Calendar thing.

 

 

But the GWR Terrier is special. Hornby know that, that's why they are doing it this way. Don't underestimate the amount of GWR enthusiasts there are. I reckon this could be the start of the resurgence of the GWR BLT.

 

 

Jason

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