Hornby 2021 - 4 & 6 wheel period coaches

[Jol Wilkinson]

2 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

Well now, once upon a time there was a TV drama called God's Wonderful Railway and the title music was, indeed, a piece of Elgar, his Severn Suite, Opus 87. 

 

But, yes, Elgar is evocative of England generally, but perhaps particularly places in the West, such as the Malvern Hills.

 

 

 Perhaps "The Wagon Passes" might be more appropriate.

[GreenGiraffe22]

Found this photo while searching for something else, thought it would be of interest =]

 

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, Edwardian said:

Well now, once upon a time there was a TV drama called God's Wonderful Railway and the title music was, indeed, a piece of Elgar, his Severn Suite, Opus 87. 

 

Ah, yes, I remember that - late 70s / very early 80s? It was filmed on the Severn Valley Railway, at Arley, I think, and traced a railway family through three generations, from the point of view of the family children of the time - the construction and opening of the line, the Edwardian heyday, and the Second World War. So the choice of that particular piece of Elgar was apt, as well as wonderfully atmospheric.

Edited January 10, 2021 by Compound2632

[adrianmc]

1 hour ago, Ravenser said:

 

I read that as 127mm over body (152-25)= 31'9"

 

I actually make it 128mm over body (151-23) = 32"

 

Which would make sense with the prototype SR No 7514 being a 32ft 4-compartment 1st - SR Diag 507/508/509

 

As I have said previously the model is a very close representation of the prototype Stroudley LB&SCR - the only main difference being the more "generic" choice of grab rail adjacent to each door.

 

What would be interesting is to have the other dimensions - especially the wheel base.

 

According to Mike King's drawing this should be 10ft 6in + 10ft 6in

 

[The Johnster]

I'm beginning to think that grab rails are the key to the use of these as 'layout coaches', which is all they're ever going to be at best except if they can be worked up into LBSCR condition,  My interest is for 4 whelers as GW workmen's stock, for which they may have some uses, especially as much of the underframe incorrectness is hidden by footboards.

[Compound2632]

17 minutes ago, adrianmc said:

 

I actually make it 128mm over body (151-23) = 32"

 

Which would make sense with the prototype SR No 7514 being a 32ft 4-compartment 1st - SR Diag 507/508/509

 

As I have said previously the model is a very close representation of the prototype Stroudley LB&SCR - the only main difference being the more "generic" choice of grab rail adjacent to each door.

 

What would be interesting is to have the other dimensions - especially the wheel base.

 

According to Mike King's drawing this should be 10ft 6in + 10ft 6in

 

 

Is this actually a Stroudley carriage? The high arc roof looks more like the style built under Billinton's superintendancy.

Edited January 10, 2021 by Compound2632

[Les1952]

8 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

Surely Elgar, Holst, Britten, or another English composer would be more appropriate.

 

Not forgetting the first to be knighted for being a composer......

 

Les

 

- Sir Arthur- composer of the North East South West Diddlesex Junction 

Edited January 10, 2021 by Les1952

[adrianmc]

16 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Is this actually a Stroudley carriage? The high arc roof looks more like the style built under Billinton's superintendancy.

 

I would agree - I was using Stroudley as a description as to general style - the coaches to these diagrams were built 1892-1897 so definitely under R.J.Billinton's tenure with as you say a higher arc-roof profile.

[tomparryharry]

Generally speaking, a passenger-rated vehicle should be measured over the headstocks (the buffer beams ). Then, add 7mm at each end for the buffers to give you the overall length of the vehicle. Measuring the body is ok-ish, but if the tumblehome is of a different design, you might not get the accuracy you want. 

 

I'm rather taken with these coaches; although generic, the basic structure of the Vctorian coach was already generic by design. It's only the detail features  that sets one coach apart from its cousin. Having not seen the Hattons models yet, it appears  that  convincing looking train formations   can be gleaned from both. 

 

If I was in Hattons shoes right now, I'd be having a damn good look to see if I could 'out Hornby, Hornby'.  With 150-odd coach company liveries to choose from, it wouldn't be too hard.

 

Interesting times indeed.

[Steamport Southport]

9 minutes ago, tomparryharry said:

Generally speaking, a passenger-rated vehicle should be measured over the headstocks (the buffer beams ). Then, add 7mm at each end for the buffers to give you the overall length of the vehicle. Measuring the body is ok-ish, but if the tumblehome is of a different design, you might not get the accuracy you want. 

 

I'm rather taken with these coaches; although generic, the basic structure of the Vctorian coach was already generic by design. It's only the detail features  that sets one coach apart from its cousin. Having not seen the Hattons models yet, it appears  that  convincing looking train formations   can be gleaned from both. 

 

If I was in Hattons shoes right now, I'd be having a damn good look to see if I could 'out Hornby, Hornby'.  With 150-odd coach company liveries to choose from, it wouldn't be too hard.

 

Interesting times indeed.

 

I think they've already got a couple of dozen liveries announced already.

 

But when you end up with something like the Shropshire & Montgomeryshire I think it's time to give up as you are selling about three of them....

[Jenny Emily]

1 hour ago, adrianmc said:

 

I actually make it 128mm over body (151-23) = 32"

 

Which would make sense with the prototype SR No 7514 being a 32ft 4-compartment 1st - SR Diag 507/508/509

 

As I have said previously the model is a very close representation of the prototype Stroudley LB&SCR - the only main difference being the more "generic" choice of grab rail adjacent to each door.

 

What would be interesting is to have the other dimensions - especially the wheel base.

 

According to Mike King's drawing this should be 10ft 6in + 10ft 6in

 

I make it 42mm from axle centre to axle centre on my example. 
 

The lighting is particularly good. I like the magnet actuation and the choice of the CR2032 battery should give reliability and longevity. 
 

[JohnR]

1 hour ago, tomparryharry said:

If I was in Hattons shoes right now, I'd be having a damn good look to see if I could 'out Hornby, Hornby'.  With 150-odd coach company liveries to choose from, it wouldn't be too hard.

 

Interesting times indeed.

 

For some reason theres been a delay in Hattons revealing the livery details of the 2nd batch LSWR examples. I wonder if they might pull them, or even adjust some of their 1st batch examples in light of Hornbys announcement. 

 

[johnd]

46 minutes ago, Jenny Emily said:

I make it 42mm from axle centre to axle centre on my example. 
 

The lighting is particularly good. I like the magnet actuation and the choice of the CR2032 battery should give reliability and longevity. 
 

 

Interesting I note there is a sag in the footboard quite noticeable to my eyes ! 

[Butler Henderson]

The reed switch activated light system could be problematic for Kadee users with fixed magnets for the Kadees. 

[Helmdon]

6 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

Well now, once upon a time there was a TV drama called God's Wonderful Railway and the title music was, indeed, a piece of Elgar, his Severn Suite, Opus 87. 

 

But, yes, Elgar is evocative of England generally, but perhaps particularly places in the West, such as the Malvern Hills.

 

 

Definitely - those of us lucky enough to have grown up in the tight little Worcestershire/Shropshire corner of the Severn Valley are called home by Elgar. Housman too, on the poetry side.

[tomparryharry]

1 hour ago, Jenny Emily said:

I make it 42mm from axle centre to axle centre on my example. 
 

The lighting is particularly good. I like the magnet actuation and the choice of the CR2032 battery should give reliability and longevity. 
 

 

I rather like them, other than  (personally ) I think they are a tad too bright. 

[tomparryharry]

2 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

I think they've already got a couple of dozen liveries announced already.

 

But when you end up with something like the Shropshire & Montgomeryshire I think it's time to give up as you are selling about three of them....

 

Yes, very probably. But remember that there are quite a lot of coaches, multiplied by a lot of railway companies. Right now I'm trying to find my Mountford book on Western Absorbed Coaches.  Can I find it? PAH!

 

[Steamport Southport]

4 minutes ago, tomparryharry said:

 

Yes, very probably. But remember that there are quite a lot of coaches, multiplied by a lot of railway companies. Right now I'm trying to find my Mountford book on Western Absorbed Coaches.  Can I find it? PAH!

 

 

However I think 372 is more than enough!

[PaulRhB]

1 hour ago, Butler Henderson said:

The reed switch activated light system could be problematic for Kadee users with fixed magnets for the Kadees. 

Unlikely with the Reed switch in the roof. The kadee 308 large magnets need to be within a few mm to actuate. I have mine on drop flaps to stop random uncoupling and they only need to drop about 15mm for the sleeper base to stop them actuating. 

[Miss Prism]

What is the body width?

What is the buffer height?

 

[The Johnster]

My main grouse about both the Hattons and Hornby 4 wheelers (I have no more than a passing interest in 6 wheelers) is that the Brake vehicles in both cases are based on the LBSCR  Stroudley 'balloon' brakes which had the duckets right at the end of the coach.  Of course there is no problem with this if one is making an LBSCR Stroudley 'balloon' brake,, but this style was unique to Stroudley and is therefore an issue if one produces GW, GN, NB, LNW, LSW and so on brake coaches to this pattern which are clearly and absolutely wrong even if one is prepared to accept all thirds, composites, or all firsts that look reasonably like the coaches they are intended to represent.  The balloon duckets scream Stroudley at you and prevent your accepting them as anything else, 

 

The back story is a bit odd; we first heard of Hattons' 'Genesis' project, which has clearly based it's brake vehicles on Stroudley's balloons.  Then along come Hornby with what seems to have originally been an intention to make LBSCR Stroudley coaches, including the balloon brakes, that has been changed (probably by marketing) to generic coaches whose difference from the Hattons version is mostly the window/panelling profile, radiussed corners for Hornby and square corners.  What is the attraction of Stroudley coaches that has seduced two RTR commissioner/producers over larger railways such as the Midland, LNW, GW, and many others?  The Ratio 4 wheel Brake 3rd is still the only 4 wheeler passenger brake suitable for railways that are not the LBSCR, but is very firmly GW.  I'm not at all sure that the market is best served by either Hattons' or Hornbys' coaches, and Hornby do not state that they consider their coaches to be generic.  There are differences in roof, grab rail, and underframe detail that flag them up as belong to the railway whose livery they are supplied in, but the  main toolings are common across the ranges and thus by any standards generic, both of them.

 

Kudos to Hornby for their very sensible lighting, which is available seperately and which I hope will be featured on other models as well in future.

[Paul.Uni]

Hornby Magazine video (I don't think it has been shared on this thread)

 

[BlueLightning]

9 hours ago, The Johnster said:

My main grouse about both the Hattons and Hornby 4 wheelers (I have no more than a passing interest in 6 wheelers) is that the Brake vehicles in both cases are based on the LBSCR  Stroudley 'balloon' brakes which had the duckets right at the end of the coach.  Of course there is no problem with this if one is making an LBSCR Stroudley 'balloon' brake,, but this style was unique to Stroudley and is therefore an issue if one produces GW, GN, NB, LNW, LSW and so on brake coaches to this pattern which are clearly and absolutely wrong even if one is prepared to accept all thirds, composites, or all firsts that look reasonably like the coaches they are intended to represent.  The balloon duckets scream Stroudley at you and prevent your accepting them as anything else, 

 

The back story is a bit odd; we first heard of Hattons' 'Genesis' project, which has clearly based it's brake vehicles on Stroudley's balloons.  Then along come Hornby with what seems to have originally been an intention to make LBSCR Stroudley coaches, including the balloon brakes, that has been changed (probably by marketing) to generic coaches whose difference from the Hattons version is mostly the window/panelling profile, radiussed corners for Hornby and square corners.  What is the attraction of Stroudley coaches that has seduced two RTR commissioner/producers over larger railways such as the Midland, LNW, GW, and many others?  The Ratio 4 wheel Brake 3rd is still the only 4 wheeler passenger brake suitable for railways that are not the LBSCR, but is very firmly GW.  I'm not at all sure that the market is best served by either Hattons' or Hornbys' coaches, and Hornby do not state that they consider their coaches to be generic.  There are differences in roof, grab rail, and underframe detail that flag them up as belong to the railway whose livery they are supplied in, but the  main toolings are common across the ranges and thus by any standards generic, both of them.

 

Kudos to Hornby for their very sensible lighting, which is available seperately and which I hope will be featured on other models as well in future.

 

Minor point that Balloon brakes were bogie carriages, had no duckets, and were made a long time after Stroudley died

 

Actual point that the duckets on the Hattons carriages are nothing like those of Stroudley carriages, much more like LCDR ones, which not only had them on the end, but also had a similar shape to the Hattons ones (There may be other railways, the LCDR is just one I am familiar with)

 

And for your other point, there were also other railways with end duckets in a similar shape to the Stroudley carriages, for example the Highland had 4 wheelers with similar end mounted duckets, I know there are others, as I have seen pictures of them, but can't think of which railways off the top of my head (I want to say Caledonian, but I'm not sure)

 

I hope that answers both your issues.

 

Gary

[jcm@gwr]

Hmm, having got a Keyser whitemetal coach kit, with the ducket at the end,

I wondered if it was based on a GWR prototype, or not.

So, having checked Penrhos' excellent website, I found multiple examples

of this arrangement (T30-33, T40, 49 & T63), including a picture of the T49

preserved, and running, at Didcot.

[6990WitherslackHall]

I may be considering purchasing one of Hattons GNR six wheelers to run with my DJH Ivatt C1 4-4-2. Should i still consider getting it?