Hornby 2021 - 4 & 6 wheel period coaches

[jcm@gwr]

47 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

The challenge.

 

Which is equally, if not more so, human nature.

 

19 minutes ago, chris p bacon said:

 

I don't think they're that difficult, I just make the middle axle 'float' and don't have any issues with them.

 

I'm confident that you are both capable, like many others on here, but you are missing the point!

I agree we should encourage newbies, or those who are late developers (modelling wise!), but

not by telling them they're doing it wrong, and they have to build a kit!

Once they've had success with doing a cut-n-shut, they'll have the confidence to do more, on the

other hand, if they feel they are being criticised before they've even started, they are more likely

to give up and try wargaming, or anything without rivet counters.

[Pmorgancym]

Surely.just make the centre set blind.  Works on the Emily coaches that take impossibly tight curves on my garden line.

[Compound2632]

10 minutes ago, jcm@gwr said:

I'm confident that you are both capable, like many others on here, but you are missing the point!

I agree we should encourage newbies, or those who are late developers (modelling wise!), but

not by telling them they're doing it wrong, and they have to build a kit!

Once they've had success with doing a cut-n-shut, they'll have the confidence to do more, on the

other hand, if they feel they are being criticised before they've even started, they are more likely

to give up and try wargaming, or anything without rivet counters.

 

What I see happening is that people will find pre-grouping model railways more accessible as a result of the Hattons and Hornby carriages; as their interest in the period grows, so does their discernment and knowledge of the prototype, to the point at which they become dissatisfied with the RTR offerings and start looking for something better. Meanwhile, they've dabbled in a bit of injection-moulded plastic wagon kit building, printed resin kit building, then maybe even into trying their hand at brass and whitemetal, building up the skills to give them the confidence to tackle a carriage kit, which is inevitably more complex than a wagon kit.

 

No doubt there will be foul-ups, botched jobs, and frustration along the way but that's all part of life. One always needs to remember that the person who never made a mistake never made anything.

[Ravenser]

7 hours ago, Budgie said:

 

So I think they should issue unpainted versions or purchasers to dress up in their own liveries.

 

A lot of the minor railways used varnished teak I believe, So a "debranded" teak one should do the job

[chris p bacon]

47 minutes ago, jcm@gwr said:

 

 

I'm confident that you are both capable, like many others on here, but you are missing the point!

I agree we should encourage newbies, or those who are late developers (modelling wise!), but

not by telling them they're doing it wrong, and they have to build a kit!

Once they've had success with doing a cut-n-shut, they'll have the confidence to do more, on the

other hand, if they feel they are being criticised before they've even started, they are more likely

to give up and try wargaming, or anything without rivet counters.

 

Eeeeerr I never said 'build a kit' I just said I didn't think the middle wheelset of a 6 wheeler was that hard.  

 

I've also not criticised anyone for wanting to purchase these for use or for cut n shut. I've only said that as they are nothing like the GN Howldens they're not really for me, I did say though that I'd pick one up to see whether I could turn it into an early Met Camm built coach. 

[Butler Henderson]

Of the 6 wheel coaches I listed earlier as photoed on departmental use the only one the Hornby range could possibly represent with a reasonable degree of similarity is 7500, the former MR arc roofed all 3rd with a lot of windows infilled. The NBR version offered by Hornby (R40090) being the nearest in terms of roof vent types. Visually aside from the windows, or rather lack of them other than the doors and the LH compartment, the foot step would need relocating to run immediately below the axleboxes and wheels replaced by split spoked ones.

[The Johnster]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

One always needs to remember that the person who never made a mistake never made anything.

If true, this should mean I’ve made nearly everything...

[Jenny Emily]

My review video:

 

Edited January 12, 2021 by Jenny Emily

[The Johnster]

But it's not tomorrow yet.  OTOH it's been later than this before now, and before you know where you are, where are you?  Will check out vid dreckly, Jens...

[9402 Fredrick]

So, what shops so far have the coaches in stock? I'm still confused as to why some shops have certain versions in stock but Hornby's website still has them on pre-order.

[The Johnster]

Jenny's video was very informative and has provided me with a lot more basic information to make decisions with.  I'd say the Hattons coaches are a better quality product; the Hornby lets itself down a bit with it's design clever style axles, crude underframe detail, and moulded end detail, despite the separate door handles and detailed wheel faces.  The lighting is clever and innovative, but at the cost of a floor raised to seat level in one compartment, made more obvious by the, um, lighting...  And I can't be doing with those odd concave buffers, or, on new stock in this day and age, brake blocks not in line with the wheels!

 

The Hattons are already earmarked for the brake thirds as their brake composites will pass muster and have duckets in the right place, and it will make sense to have a matching all third in between the brakes (this is for a Glyncorrwg miner's train as stated earlier), which leaves open the question of the other all third coach, which was lower and shorter.  The Hattons are better detailed at the underframe and have better buffers, as well as  separate end details; steps, lamp irons, and so on. 

[boxbrownie]

9 hours ago, Pmorgancym said:

Surely.just make the centre set blind.  Works on the Emily coaches that take impossibly tight curves on my garden line.

Exactly that, if it’s that difficult (which it’s not) to design a decent 6 wheeler, just make the centres flangeless, it’ll be impossible to notice and it’s already done on quite a few 4-6-2 Locos with the rear pair fixed......no one seems to mind that.

[boxbrownie]

9 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Jenny's video review of the Hattons coaches was an eye opener, and I'm looking forward to her offering on the Hornby front tomoz. 

Yes....I know they were EP or later but what was all that flickering lighting going on?

 

Bit worried I may have “backed the wrong horse”.

[mozzer models]

10 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Jenny's video was very informative and has provided me with a lot more basic information to make decisions with..  And I can't be doing with those odd concave buffers, or, on new stock in this day and age, brake blocks not in line with the wheels!

 

 

On the 6 wheelers all 3 axles slide sideways so the brake blocks can not line up all the time

Edited January 13, 2021 by mozzer models

[Compound2632]

5 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

Bit worried I may have “backed the wrong horse”.

 

Only if it is the steadiness of the lighting that is your overriding consideration, at the expense of probability and finesse in many other departments. Anyway, I bet there was plenty of flicker in the lighting of these carriages, certainly by oil, probably electricity, maybe not gas, depending on the system used.

[jonnyuk]

Hornby are getting into a habit of "it will do" for some of its products. Terrier for example, first batch was a bit umm....second batch much better with more refinement (really only the glazing is abit naf now).

 

but then we have to think what other manufacture has such a large range year on year, Bachmann maybe but even they are sliming down on the new ranges.

 

Hattons, accurascale etc are doing small amounts of new product so can invest the time make all their products more detailed, more refined, Hornby have to pick and choose theirs, Hornby are also selling to the masses. They are are a different beast.

 

Back to the coaches, they look ok and i think that sums them up, the lighting is a good idea, just enough refinement for the untrained eye, enough to please most people and will sell to the masses which i suspect is their aim leaving super duper stuff like the hush hush to the "modeller".

 

 

 

Edited January 13, 2021 by jonnyuk

[Dunsignalling]

57 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Only if it is the steadiness of the lighting that is your overriding consideration, at the expense of probability and finesse in many other departments. Anyway, I bet there was plenty of flicker in the lighting of these carriages, certainly by oil, probably electricity, maybe not gas, depending on the system used.

The only lit ones that might interest me are a couple of SR green ones to use as Camping Coaches, which will be easy enough to wire direct to the baseboard if necessary. The Hornby ones would save a little work, but those 'orrible buffers would definitely have to go! Overall, I prefer the look of the Hatton's models, though.  

 

John

[boxbrownie]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Only if it is the steadiness of the lighting that is your overriding consideration, at the expense of probability and finesse in many other departments. Anyway, I bet there was plenty of flicker in the lighting of these carriages, certainly by oil, probably electricity, maybe not gas, depending on the system used.

No I understand that, the lighting is a very small consideration, it just knocks my faith a little to see flickering lights I haven’t seen since I tried to light my Triang carriages when I was a kid.

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, mozzer models said:

On the 6 wheelers all 3 axles slide sideways so the brake blocks can not line up 

 

They could if the whole axle box/brake assemby slid with them

 

Edited January 13, 2021 by Michael Hodgson

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, mozzer models said:

On the 6 wheelers all 3 axles slide sideways so the brake blocks can not line up 

 

I took a look at the relevant bit of @Jenny Emily's video, around 11 min. As far as I can make out, only the centre axle slides - having all three sliding would be a disaster! The centre axle does not have brake blocks, as is correct for the majority of 6-wheelers; the blocks on the outer axles are set with ease of conversion to EM or P4 in mind.

 

The footboard is in a much better place on this 6 wheeler than on the GN 4-wheeler we were shown earlier.

 

I do feel sorry for the lamp man, though. Quite apart from the shallowness of the end-steps, the handrails are in useless positions. Compare:

 

 

... a curved handrail following the line of the steps.

[mozzer models]

43 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I took a look at the relevant bit of @Jenny Emily's video, around 11 min. As far as I can make out, only the centre axle slides - having all three sliding would be a disaster! The centre axle does not have brake blocks, as is correct for the majority of 6-wheelers; the blocks on the outer axles are set with ease of conversion to EM or P4 in mind.

 

The footboard is in a much better place on this 6 wheeler than on the GN 4-wheeler we were shown earlier.

 

I do feel sorry for the lamp man, though. Quite apart from the shallowness of the end-steps, the handrails are in useless positions. Compare:

 

 

... a curved handrail following the line of the steps.

have a look at around 11.49 were the coach is on its side showing the chassis

The wheels at the bottom line up with the brakes but not at the top they do not

[Compound2632]

21 minutes ago, mozzer models said:

have a look at around 11.49 were the coach is on its side showing the chassis

The wheels at the bottom line up with the brakes but not at the top they do not

 

I see what you mean. I had at first just put that down to 00 "slop" but on reflection I wonder if it has been found necessary to give the outer axles a bit of sideplay - considerably less than the middle axle - to get the carriage to go round set-track radius curves. Physics tells me that on the straight, the longitudinal tension provided by the vehicles fore and aft will tend to keep the vehicle centred, since he couplings are fixed on the centre-line. Though that would seem to suggest one would not want one of these 6-wheelers as the last vehicle in a train. I note that @Jenny Emily initially has a big bogie Pullmann behind the carriage, but in later footage where the carriage is running solo, I don't actually see any waggle. In her video of the Hattons EPs, she had several vehicles - 6 and 4-wheelers - so one was able to get an impression of how they run as an ensemble.

[SteamingWales]

Just had a watch of @Jenny Emilyreview (very much enjoyed it btw) and I think this is the first time we have had a proper up close look at the Hornby offering. I then followed up with both her's and Sam's Trains look at the Genesis stuff to get an idea of details on both offering. 

 

Having done this I am firmly in the Hattons camp. They just seem to have a lot more detail both under the chassis and the ends are miles better with the separate steps and lamp irons vs Hornby's moulded ends

[Pre Grouping fan]

10 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

Yes....I know they were EP or later but what was all that flickering lighting going on?

 

Bit worried I may have “backed the wrong horse”.

The only flickering lights I could see was she was demonstrating the tool to turn them on and off. to me it looks like waving the block over the roof in the wrong way will create that effect.

[Compound2632]

Just now, Pre Grouping fan said:

The only flickering lights I could see was she was demonstrating the tool to turn them on and off. to me it looks like waving the block over the roof in the wrong way will create that effect.

 

The flickering @boxbrownie had observed was in @Jenny Emily's review of the Hattons Genesis carriages, which draw their current from the rails. The Hornby carriages' lighting draws its current from an on-board battery.