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Hornby 2021 - 4 & 6 wheel period coaches


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55 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

Producing two sets of tooling (one 'Stroudley' and one 'generic') doesn't come cheap these days!

 

I am sure you're right, but comments from others earlier on in this topic seemed to imply that the only difference from "proper" Stroudley coaches are the door handles.  I don't know if that is true or not, as I know nothing about these coaches, but, if it is, then that implies that all that would be needed are different door handles, not a complete set of tooling.

 

Best wishes


Roddy

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14 minutes ago, Roddy Angus said:

I am sure you're right, but comments from others earlier on in this topic seemed to imply that the only difference from "proper" Stroudley coaches are the door handles.  I don't know if that is true or not, as I know nothing about these coaches, but, if it is, then that implies that all that would be needed are different door handles, not a complete set of tooling.

 

Best wishes


Roddy

I can't help but think that if you had a product tool that was ready for production why would you change it just to paint it in other liveries?  Surely most who are looking for a 4w or 6w coach for their "train set" don't care what it is based on, just whether it looks nice behind their locomotive?

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38 minutes ago, Roddy Angus said:

I am sure you're right, but comments from others earlier on in this topic seemed to imply that the only difference from "proper" Stroudley coaches are the door handles.  I don't know if that is true or not, as I know nothing about these coaches, but, if it is, then that implies that all that would be needed are different door handles, not a complete set of tooling.

 

Best wishes


Roddy

 

It goes much deeper than just the door handles. Roof arc, roof furniture, chassis detail and braking arrangements etc. Its almost like they were mid development of a Stroudley set when someone came crashing into the office and insisted that design work wraps up ASAP to go to tooling. So they have the basis for a certain coach which needed a bit more effort to get right, but raided the bits bin and slapped the rest on in a hurry without any thought as to whether the rest would appear in any way functional.

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1 hour ago, Bishdurham said:

I can't help but think that if you had a product tool that was ready for production why would you change it just to paint it in other liveries? 

 

But it wasn't 'ready' at the critical time - i.e. when Hattons went public with their Genesis range.

 

At that point in time both projects were at the CAD stage with Hattons continuing to refine the details over the subsequent 6 months thanks to feedback from Knowledgable RMwebbers as can be seen from the relevant thread if you start at the beginning.

 

Its also noticeable that Hattons were not initially going to them in LSBCR livery and there were rumours floating round the internet that this was because someone else was looking at doing authentic Stroudley coaches.

 

The suggestion made by some on here - and one which seems entirely logical when you look back on things is that Hornby, having seen how well the modelling community took to the idea of 'generic stock' decided they wanted a piece of the action. They had been working on Stroudley stock but were still some way off making the tooling so a number of hurried alterations were made (not just changing the handrails as pointed out by Zunnan) allowing Hornby to not only dodge claims of copying past practices* but also to get their product out before Hattons.

 

Nothing wrong with this per say - after all we kept being told by Governments and trade bodies that competition in the market is always a winner for the consumer, however as with the Terrier duplication there is a strong suspicion that Hornby have deliberately altered their plans so as to rush something out to steel a march on their competitors. The downside of this, as seen from the first batch of Hornby Terriers and now these coaches is they are still a bit 'rough round the edges' so to speak with the Rails Terrier and now Hattons equivalents generally having finer detail as befits a product which had a longer gestation and was not rushed to beet a rival.

 

 

* Back in the 1970s and 1980s it was quite normal for an accurate model to also be released in a number of fictitious liveries on the basis that the result was 'good enough' Thus we got pretty accurate Collett GWR stock from Hornby Masquerading as Maunsells while Lima went and released their Mk1s in LMS and GWR liveries

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21 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

* Back in the 1970s and 1980s it was quite normal for an accurate model to also be released in a number of fictitious liveries on the basis that the result was 'good enough' Thus we got pretty accurate Collett GWR stock from Hornby Masquerading as Maunsells while Lima went and released their Mk1s in LMS and GWR liveries

 

Grief yes! Both the ex-Triang non-corridor and Hornby printed-panel corridor Dean clerestories appeared masquerading as Midland clerestories. The horror! The horror!

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3 hours ago, Nile said:

To me the least convincing of these is the 4-wheel all brake. It's too long to compared to the prototype it's loosely based on, and the panelling is wrong for most other railways. And yet it is proving very popular

Simply because to most people it’s a matching brake and they have no idea what is prototypical ;) Most photo album and coffee table books concentrate on the loco because that’s what the photographer took. I’ve been collecting LNWR books for a while and it’s pretty hard to find photos of these type of coaches unless you go to the LNWR Society or one or two other books. The LNWR company photographers did get some amazing action shots in a period where paving the train was the only way to do it except in really bright sun for exposure. But the vast majority have the loco filling the frame or at such an angle it’s hard to identify the coaches. Unless you buy the more study oriented specialist books you struggle to get a decent coach picture. 
I have friends who make sure their mk1’s & 2’s are the right formations but I know far more who just buy 8 mk1’s, Maunsells etc and that’s a train. 
 

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Just now, sandwich station said:

The Triang non-corridors appeared in LNER livery as well.

 

They don't offend my Derby sensibilities so much! They have a passing resemblance to GCR carriages, as Peter Denny noted. The faux-teak ones of the 1980s/90s are made from a plastic that is much more amenable to cutting up for a bit of cut'n'shuttery than the 60s Triang originals, which can be a bit brittle.

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9 hours ago, JohnR said:

Yes, but the point is that the Hornby lighting will not cause a drag on the coaches, whereas the Hattons one will. 

There’s no notable drag on the Hattons  vehicles, lit or unlit.

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1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

* Back in the 1970s and 1980s it was quite normal for an accurate model to also be released in a number of fictitious liveries on the basis that the result was 'good enough' Thus we got pretty accurate Collett GWR stock from Hornby Masquerading as Maunsells while Lima went and released their Mk1s in LMS and GWR liveries

Still fine for locos though in Space Year 2021 (*cough* SECR Thom...E2 *cough*). Ah, but that's Railroad. I wonder if there'd've been slightly less hostility had these releases turned up in a yellow and red box. :scratch_one-s_head_mini:

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7 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

At that point in time both projects were at the CAD stage with Hattons continuing to refine the details over the subsequent 6 months... as can be seen from the relevant thread.

 

Hornby, having seen how well the modelling community took to the idea of 'generic stock' decided they wanted a piece of the action.

This is, of course, precisely the reason that manufacturers have traditionally not engaged publically on forums or announced products in advance.

Edited by Hal Nail
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1 hour ago, Hal Nail said:

This is, of course, precisely the reason that manufacturers have traditionally not engaged publically on forums or announced products in advance.

 

But which approach results in the better product?

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Whilst LMS livery was OK for their Caley-sided Mk.1s, Tri-ang also did them in SR and GWR (dis)guises. 

 

Of the late-seventies "Year of the Coach" approximations, the GWR ones were by far the nearest thing to proper models. All the rest had battery boxes where the GWR put them..

 

It's already been mentioned that those were dressed up as alleged SR Maunsells by making them from green plastic and tweaking the roof details. I've always considered them to be (slightly) closer to the Thanet stock*- at least the brake thirds have the right number of compartments!  

 

John

 

* not LSWR Ironclads - beware typing about one thing whilst thinking about another!

Edited by Dunsignalling
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1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

But which approach results in the better product?

By definition, those of us discussing or reading about details here value accuracy. Therefore we think a more accurate model is better.

 

A lifetime employee of Hornby chatting to their unemployed mates from Airfix and Mainline might conceivably have different values (edit- probably should have talked about shareholders realistically).

 

Hornby's mission is to sell the highest volume. If cost effective detail helps then they will do it, if knocking out a passable model quicker than their rivals sells more, they will do that.

 

 

Edited by Hal Nail
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3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

But which approach results in the better product?

in some instances as with the hattons coaches, their approach without doubt. however in others makes no odds. Hornby have produced a number of amazing models without outwardly asking for help on the forums (maybe they have had input on the quiet though).

As i said in an early post, Hornby are a different beast to Hattons, they sell to the masses, not just to a percentage of very knowledgable rmweb members who require everything to be 100% accurate (that is in no way a dig, we are all at different phases our of modelling journey, all want different things from our models etc).

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2 hours ago, Nile said:

Looks like the same types that Derails had - GNR, LNER & BR.

Crimson set just arrived from them! The BR Crimson livery is very nice done.  Plan is to put them into service on "Lyncombe Vale", forming a 'what if' Highbridge service, where SDJR 4 & 6 wheelers survived into BR...

 

IMG_20210115_134911.jpg

IMG_20210115_134923.jpg

Edited by SDJR7F88
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20 hours ago, Nile said:

Something is puzzling me. To me the least convincing of these is the 4-wheel all brake. It's too long to compared to the prototype it's loosely based on, and the panelling is wrong for most other railways. And yet it is proving very popular with buyers. Derails have sold out of the ones they had, and at Kernow the GWR version is the best seller this week (pre-orders). There's no accounting for taste it seems.

Thousands of rakes of old Hornby 4-wheelers that finally have an end vehicle?

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5 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

Ah, the trademark Kohler all-1st. I bet he's planning a full Pullman livery soon.

 

To be fair, a rather more common type for 19th-century 4/6-wheelers than 20th century bogie corridor coaches! But, even if one gets over one's profound doubt that any 6-wheelers surviving in passenger use after 1947 ever got BR crimson, there's the point that the outer compartments would undoubtedly have been downgraded to third.

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26 minutes ago, SDJR7F88 said:

Crimson set just arrived from them! The BR Crimson livery is very nice done.  Plan is to put them into service on "Lyncombe Vale", forming a 'what if' Highbridge service, where SDJR 4 & 6 wheelers survived into BR...

 

IMG_20210115_134911.jpg

IMG_20210115_134923.jpg

 

Oh my Callum, I am positively surprised! An order of ours that actually got to you quickly without DPD leaving it in a builders yard or Royal Mail keeping it at their depot for 27 days....that's a turn up for the books considering our last few attempts at getting items to you :wink_mini: Jokes aside, can't wait to see them on your new layout.

 

They are selling quite well (especially the LNER and GNR - all pretty much gone here now) so if you'd like some, make sure you contact your local model shop asap and see what they've got left!

 

Cheers!

 

 

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