Hornby 2021 - 4 & 6 wheel period coaches

[jcm@gwr]

5 minutes ago, Nile said:

I can't pronounce that!

 

(I don't think it's really a word, but I think I've got away with it!)

[Torn-on-the-platform]

1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

I think it was pointed out earlier in the thread. But they are open stock, not compartment stock. Note there isn't any partitions.

 

 

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/619256/hornby_r40058_4_wheel_3rd_1636_in_gnr_lined_teak_era_2_due_jan_21_2021_new_tooling/stockdetail.aspx

 

 

 

Jason

I believe that some Stroudleys had seats across the carriage but with no partitions. A bit like the RHDR or Tallylyn Railway carriages are today. One of the LBSCR carriages in the Bluebell's carriage shop is so arranged, one of the staff/volunteers was quite blunt and dismissive of me when I asked about the lack of partition!

[Steamport Southport]

1 minute ago, Torn-on-the-platform said:

I believe that some Stroudleys had seats across the carriage but with no partitions. A bit like the RHDR or Tallylyn Railway carriages are today. One of the LBSCR carriages in the Bluebell's carriage shop is so arranged, one of the staff/volunteers was quite blunt and dismissive of me when I asked about the lack of partition!

 

I've no idea of Stroudley Carriages. But I've just ordered the books, only £20 each from various places.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/LB-SCR-Carriages-Six-Wheeled-Passenger/dp/1905505353?ref_=Oct_s9_apbd_simh_hd_bw_b17GB&pf_rd_r=S6W745XG6SGPSZPMZ59D&pf_rd_p=4fa8f002-7820-55ab-be4e-cd02dac884f3&pf_rd_s=merchandised-search-10&pf_rd_t=BROWSE&pf_rd_i=266239

 

 

 

Jason

[phil-b259]

24 minutes ago, Torn-on-the-platform said:

I believe that some Stroudleys had seats across the carriage but with no partitions.

 

Yup

 

See this one currently undergoing restoration https://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/coach949.html

 

Or this one awaiting restoration https://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/coach676.html

Edited January 15, 2021 by phil-b259

[Edwardian]

2 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

I've no idea of Stroudley Carriages. But I've just ordered the books, only £20 each from various places.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/LB-SCR-Carriages-Six-Wheeled-Passenger/dp/1905505353?ref_=Oct_s9_apbd_simh_hd_bw_b17GB&pf_rd_r=S6W745XG6SGPSZPMZ59D&pf_rd_p=4fa8f002-7820-55ab-be4e-cd02dac884f3&pf_rd_s=merchandised-search-10&pf_rd_t=BROWSE&pf_rd_i=266239

 

 

 

Jason

 

 

These are excellent books, not only for the information on Brighton coaches, but in understanding how coaches of the period were constructed and appeared more generally.  

[The Johnster]

4 hours ago, Torn-on-the-platform said:

I believe that some Stroudleys had seats across the carriage but with no partitions. A bit like the RHDR or Tallylyn Railway carriages are today

 

Also the Vale of Rheidol and Welsh Highland.  I believe the arrangement was fairly common for local stock in Victorian times.

 

4 hours ago, jcm@gwr said:

Or is it accurate genericity?

 

A curate's generosity?

[sandwich station]

10 minutes ago, MGR Hooper! said:

There's also one infamous manufacturer that claims to accept feedback and be all open and forthcoming, but the reality of it is just the opposite. Customers with a wealth of knowledge provide feedback in good faith and absolutely nothing is done.

 

Which manufacturer is this?

[The Johnster]

I think MGR’s post has been taken down, not surprisingly, so he’s obviously not going to be allowed to name names.  There is, as I read his post and IMHO, one likely candidate, given the names he mentioned as being paragons and applying a process of elimination, and there is no evidence that I am aware of that his comment is justified or accurate; of course, he may be party to knowledge that I am not aware of.  And I’m not sticking my head over this particular parapet to name who I think they are. 

[Dunsignalling]

11 hours ago, Hroth said:

 

A rake of B/G six-wheelers behind a blue Class 37 would look really smart!

Why not, but they don't need to do the coaches in B/G, there are previous examples of Private Owner wagons being boxed with Blue 37s.

 

John

[Hroth]

26 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Why not, but they don't need to do the coaches in B/G, there are previous examples of Private Owner wagons being boxed with Blue 37s.

 

John

 

Of course, Blue 37s got around a lot, they had a lot in common with the Tardis. As well as the colour... 

[Butler Henderson]

10 hours ago, Torn-on-the-platform said:

One of the LBSCR carriages in the Bluebell's carriage shop is so arranged, one of the staff/volunteers was quite blunt and dismissive of me when I asked about the lack of partition!

I did order the GN one on the basis the guttered body, retrieved from a barn where it had been for decades, had been restored on an appropriate chassis and an open seating arrangement provided to avoid any further harm to the historic asset; may be a similar case for that LBSC coach.

[Compound2632]

43 minutes ago, Butler Henderson said:

I did order the GN one on the basis the guttered body, retrieved from a barn where it had been for decades, had been restored on an appropriate chassis and an open seating arrangement provided to avoid any further harm to the historic asset; may be a similar case for that LBSC coach.

 

I like the thinking. But the Stroudley thirds were built like that - the clue being in the single wide window. Not taking the partitions up to full height was common enough in the earlies - and the Stroudley 4-wheelers can be considered early, certainly by RTR pre-Grouping standards - early 1870s. By the 1880s I think one would struggle to find examples being built, even for high-density metropolitan area services. No-one likes banging the back of their head against a stranger's. The only later example I can think of off hand are the rather splendid carriages built for the Lynton & Barnstaple in 1898; even these had partitions between the seats that could be lifted up to divide the compartments in the winter months:

 

 

There is a fixed partition between the end two compartments and the rest of the carriage, as witnessed by the separate quarter-lights. These two were smoking compartments.

[boxbrownie]

14 hours ago, Butler Henderson said:

Was just about to press the button on Derails web site for a GN 3rd 4 wheeler when something niggled me about it and did a quick web search found this ; not such its six compartments long but rather each compartment has a roof ventilator whereas Hornby  on their five compartment 3rd class 4 wheelers are only providing three ventilators which makes it look more toy like to me. 

Here you go.....Bachmann got it correct for Thomas 

[Nile]

And cheaper than the Hornby version.

(or at least they were at Kernow)

Edited January 16, 2021 by Nile
extra info

[PaulRhB]

56 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

Here you go.....Bachmann got it correct for Thomas 

Fancy posting an actual prototype model in the generic coach thread! 

 

[tractionman]

Thanks to very speedy despatch by Derails and delivery by RM, I have 3 lovely-looking 6-wheelers:

 

 

I like 'em but I'll also be getting some of the Hatton's ones too!

 

cheers,

 

Keith

 

[sem34090]

My partner recently bought a Hornby Terrier in Improved Engine Green (It wasn't my purchase and I think both the Rails and Hornby versions have their flaws) so I decided to investigate these. Picked up one of the over-length full brakes in LNER Teak (I was curious about the livery application) as a trial, with a few in LBSCR livery on pre-order.

As a past Brighton modeller, I think they have a lot of potential for those wishing to represent Stroudley and with adaptation some Billinton stock. This one is too long but I'm imagining it can be cut and shut to get a reasonable approximation of the prototype. Some Roxey grab rails and as far as I'm concerned the job would be a good 'un. The alternatives are the rather more basic and coarse Bachmann Thomas models pictured above, the Smallbrook resin kits and the Roxey Mouldings brass kits, of maybe also the venerable Keyser whitemetal affairs. All of these are of a similar price to, or more expensive than, the Hornby coaches and don't include the additional passenger brake van or six wheel versions. I'm not enough of an LBSCR coach enthusiast to know how accurate the latter are. As far as I'm concerned the four wheelers in LBSCR or SR livery will be perfectly acceptable with a few minor modifications and possibly a little filler to deal with those buffers; They've even got Westinghouse air brake pipes! Their shortcomings are not too much of a concern and for a modeller of limited talent such as myself they have a lot of potential. I'm sure they could also provide a basis for bashing some later LBSCR bogie stock too.

 

Where these coaches fail abysmally in my opinion is in their purporting to be generic. In their attempt to go against Hattons they have swapped a few details and been lazy with others such that even for the LBSCR use to which they're best suited they will require modification. The brakes are far too distinctively Stroudley to convincingly pass for much else, and many other details are the same. If one wants a generic coach for companies other than the LBSCR and the SR's Island outpost Hattons still definitely have the edge in my book, certainly when it comes to brake coaches as to me the Stroudley brake end is very much too distinctive to be useful for non-LBSCR stock. Others are sure to disagree. 

 

For other stock, particularly for post-grouping modellers, I think a mix of Hattons and Hornby stock may be a useful way to suggest coaches of different ancestries as was more likely to be found after the grouping. A modeller representing two pre-grouping companies on their layout may find benefit in using both types to show a difference in design, maybe altering the Hornby brake coaches to look less LBSCR. I fail to see why Hornby couldn't have done a proper Stroudley and still outshopped it in spurious liveries but oh well. Some will love these, others will hate them; For my own part some LBSCR Stroudley coaches are going to be useful so the Hornby ones have been ordered. For my other projects, however, my money will go to Hattons.

 

The only Hattons models that I would probably question in light of Hornby's product are the LBSCR liveried ones; The Hornby model is a much better representation of LBSCR practice than the Hattons ones will be, but in being so they're not a lot of good for anything else! They may be good as a stop-gap until better stock can be bought or built for a layout though and are certainly very attractive.

 

Turning specifically to my passenger brake van, my two main criticisms are that it's a little bit on the light side and the attempt to represent GNR-style panelling is very odd and silly looking to my eye; Better to follow the moulded panelling in my opinion. Lining it in GNR style would have been one thing, but altering the direction of the wood grain mid-way up the panel is a bit strange. Yes it's supposedly a generic vehicle, but it still would've looked better to follow the moulded panelling.

 

Edited January 16, 2021 by sem34090

[BlueLightning]

Thank you for that rather informative review! Your findings seem to reflect my suspicions on this stock. A couple of questions if I may.

 

I don't suppose you have a set of scales to measure just how light the coach is? and is the NEM socket moulded onto the bottom of the chassis?

 

Cheers,

 

Gary

[sem34090]

15 minutes ago, BlueLightning said:

Thank you for that rather informative review! Your findings seem to reflect my suspicions on this stock. A couple of questions if I may.

 

I don't suppose you have a set of scales to measure just how light the coach is? and is the NEM socket moulded onto the bottom of the chassis?

 

Cheers,

 

Gary

No scales to hand, but I can say that the NEM socket is separate, with the mounting block being moulded to the chassis. It might not be too hard to chop off though.

[sem34090]

Just weighed mine on some not-too-great kitchen scales - 47 grams. 

 

The only comparable size vehicle I had to hand was a Bachmann Pillbox Brake at 43 grams.

[phil-b259]

On 15/01/2021 at 06:16, Compound2632 said:

 

But which approach results in the better product?

 

In this case its clear the Hattons product has benefited enormously from feedback and the resultant model is definitely going to be better than Hornbys offering.

 

However we also need to remember that the whole 'Generic coaches' thing is a bit of a special case. Unlike other models there is no prototype by which people can evaluate the model against for accuracy etc. Thus if you are Hattons how do you decide what level of detail, what characteristic, what configurations to make etc?

 

Engagement with railway modellers is thus fairly vital - it ensures the design perimeters align with what the market is expecting thus ensuring the end product is what people want to buy.

 

Were Hattons making an accurate rendition of Stroudley coaches say then they would have all sorts of source material from works drawings to measuring up the ones on the Bluebell to provide the data the designers need. In such a situation its quite sensible to keep things close to your chest - as Hornby have done though it would be extremely nieave to think they haven't also been looking at the feedback on the Hattons thread while working on their generic pseudo Stroudley stock.

[eldomtom2]

2 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

Here you go.....Bachmann got it correct for Thomas 

Not GNR though but LBSC (again!).

[Miss Prism]

Have they used the wrong lining artwork on those teaks?

 

[phil-b259]

18 hours ago, Butler Henderson said:

Was just about to press the button on Derails web site for a GN 3rd 4 wheeler when something niggled me about it and did a quick web search found this ; not such its six compartments long but rather each compartment has a roof ventilator whereas Hornby  on their five compartment 3rd class 4 wheelers are only providing three ventilators which makes it look more toy like to me. 

 

Please be aware that some Stroudley coaches only had one oil lamp that was shared between TWO compartments via a cut out in the partition.

 

See https://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pic2/328.html

 

Thus a 3rd class carriage can easily end up with less lamps in total than a 1st class one even though the latter has fewer compartments.

 

This particular coach got a lighting upgrade when gas lamps replaced oil and each compartment had its own lamp installed.

[Mike Harvey]

21 hours ago, David Schweizer said:

I have been following the announcement from Hattons regarding their Genesis range of coaches for what seems like decades,

 

 

Hattons announcement was one year and 3 months ago. Seems there has been a lot of input in that time. Oddly it appears to have just pre-dated Hornby measuring up a coach in the south of England.