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Hornby 2021 - 4 & 6 wheel period coaches


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4 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

Fancy posting an actual prototype model in the generic coach thread! :lol:

 

 

If you're taking it as a model of a Stroudley 4-wheeler, maybe. If you're saying its an accurate representation of Annie or Clarabel, think again:

 

image.png.ffd59d5884762405e1229840946a6c2c.png

 

Then again, you could be saying it's a model of one of the carriages from the original television series...

 

That's the spire of Kings Sutton church, as seen from the railway just south of Banbury...

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2 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

Have they used the wrong lining artwork on those teaks?

 

No, the lining's spot on. It's the panelling that's way out! 

 

If you find you get a headache thinking about that, I suggest go and lie down and think of Swindon.

Edited by Compound2632
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3 hours ago, sem34090 said:

 

Where these coaches fail abysmally in my opinion is in their purporting to be generic

 

In all fairness to Hornby, they've never claimed them to be generic, using the term 'period' to describe the range.

 

3 hours ago, sem34090 said:

the rather more basic and coarse Bachmann Thomas models pictured above,

 

The Baccy coaches are a slightily different beast, and may well be suitable for working up into models of prototypes not included in either Hornbys' or Hattons' ranges.  They have no tumblehome and look radically different, and I am not aware of their being based on a particular prototype, but are fairly  repesentative of early 3rd class stock from the 1850s and 60s.  IIRC Annie and Clarabelle had tumblehome in the book artwork.

 

3 hours ago, sem34090 said:

the Stroudley brake end is very much too distinctive to be useful for non-LBSCR stock

 

This is the main reason I'm hanging on for the Hatton's version, as it includes brake compos that have the duckets in a more conventional inboard location; my purpose  is to use them as 'layout coaches' representing GW Dean brake thirds in a 1950s South Wales miner's workmans' train.  Such stock ran in the early 50s on the Senghenydd and Glyncorrwg branches, not in the public timetable, and some were painted in BR crimson under the filth. 

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2 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

Have they used the wrong lining artwork on those teaks?

 

 

:D

 

In lining them as if it had something closer to the GNR's distinctive style of pannelling, completely ignoring the panels they've tooled, a most unsettling effect is produced!

 

756352840_DSCN4224-Copy.JPG.805ac5f751bbec667bdc0ddb4cf0cf74.JPG

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

In all fairness to Hornby, they've never claimed them to be generic, using the term 'period' to describe the range.

 

'Twas that Phil Parker wot said it, in response to a question as to whether they were accurate.

 

On 05/01/2021 at 10:08, Phil Parker said:

 

No, they are generic.

 

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4 hours ago, sem34090 said:

 

IMG_20210116_115705_734.jpg.11b1ce869be1da422e62a29cd972c956.jpg

IMG_20210116_115547_321.jpg.2109c01933fb3ea75c5c0099c9cee6c7.jpg

IMG_20210116_115605_732.jpg.6b9e32d6039cab2a86b41245e255b14f.jpg

IMG_20210116_115616_417.jpg.58deb49678680997b843c0e64473dfef.jpg

IMG_20210116_115633_944.jpg.187474e6fa43aa678c8ff739c9be2f8b.jpg

As a past Brighton modeller, I think they have a lot of potential for those wishing to represent Stroudley and with adaptation some Billinton stock. This one is too long but I'm imagining it can be cut and shut to get a reasonable approximation of the prototype. .....

 

Where these coaches fail abysmally in my opinion is in their purporting to be generic. In their attempt to go against Hattons they have swapped a few details and been lazy with others such that even for the LBSCR use to which they're best suited they will require modification. The brakes are far too distinctively Stroudley to convincingly pass for much else, and many other details are the same. If one wants a generic coach for companies other than the LBSCR and the SR's Island outpost Hattons still definitely have the edge in my book, certainly when it comes to brake coaches as to me the Stroudley brake end is very much too distinctive to be useful for non-LBSCR stock. Others are sure to disagree. 

 

....

 

IMG_20210116_114908_094.jpg.5f2ce3654f283b91b53f4b5029f748c6.jpg

 

 

Sem, as you are the man with the van and a Brighton man to boot .....

 

Can I ask you to get out your ruler and give us some measurements, please?

 

1506193647_HornbyGenericStroudleyBrake.jpg.62b7a50f8c5a6a03fa81f77315b5fa04.jpg

 

This, is, obviously, a stretched version of the Stroudley 20' D47/222 passenger brake van, as has been several times noted. Both the panel style and the ends are pure Stroudley.

 

What I had not appreciated is that the Hornby coach also has a Westinghouse brake air cylinder, again straight from a drawing of a Stroudley.  So, best not view these coaches from ground level if your locomotive is vacuum braked only (as will be the case for a majority of companies' passenger engines, of course).

 

Hattons started with just such a cylinder on their drawing, but had the wisdom, in my view, to replace it with vacuum brake cylinders, as vac brakes were used by the majority of companies and, so, were arguably a more appropriate for generic coach.

 

So, given that it is pretty much Brighton, as you say, not that appropriate for anything else, how usable is it? In other words, can it be cut and shut?

 

So, some questions for you please, Sem:

 

- What is the body height? I've read these Hornby generics are pretty low. Are they the height of the Stroudleys?

 

- What is the vertical panel width?  Your Hornby model sports five between the two sets of doors (as opposed to 3 on the prototype) and 3 at the end (as opposed to 1). In other words, if I cut and shut in two place to remove a total of 3 panels, do I reduce a model of a 26' coach to a model of a 20' coach?  Such a result would seem too good to be true, but perhaps worth checking?

 

Alternatively, another option is the slightly longer 22' version (pictures of which are rare - but one below)?  I cannot seem to find out much about this prototype, but it appears to have had an additional vertical panel at the non-brake end.

 

If, as seems logical, the vertical panels on the Hornby model scale at 2', losing three of them gets you a standard 20' D47/222 and losing 2 gets you the version below (note, you still need to make the same number of cuts, so, IMHO, you might as well go for the common 20' one).

 

This, assuming the other dimensions are correct.

 

As to the chassis, what is the Hornby wheelbase, because this would need to be reduced to 12'3"? 

 

 

1723850284_StroudleyD47-222PBVEBModels.png.57cc95c5a813c07e3c8bb0a8081a9fa1.png

Photograph EB Models

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10 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

What I had not appreciated is that the Hornby coach also has a Westinghouse brake air cylinder, again straight from a drawing of a Stroudley.  So, best not view these coaches from ground level if your locomotive is vacuum braked only (as will be the case for a majority of companies' passenger engines, of course).

I've just checked, and the GWR 4 wheeler reviewed in RM has an air-brake cylinder hiding between the gas tanks.

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30 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

So, given that it is pretty much Brighton, as you say, not that appropriate for anything else, how usable is it? In other words, can it be cut and shut?


Having played around in Microsoft Paint with a side-on view of the full brake, a closer representation of the D47 can be had, but a) the wheels will be too far inboard unless much surgery is performed on the underframe, and b) the panelling would *still* be wrong - the D47/222 had curious half-panels along the door seams of the luggage compartment doors, as per this CAD model:
image.png.26a6baad1e62117df53cfd3146b3ef09.png

Edit: After reshuffling some underframe bits this was the best I was able to make from the virtual Hornby full brake: 
image.png.43db5b25231040181a355eb477eeb60a.png
 

Edited by Skinnylinny
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14 minutes ago, Skinnylinny said:


Having played around in Microsoft Paint with a side-on view of the full brake, a closer representation of the D47 can be had, but a) the wheels will be too far inboard unless much surgery is performed on the underframe, and b) the panelling would *still* be wrong - the D47/222 had curious half-panels along the door seams of the luggage compartment doors, as per this CAD model:
image.png.26a6baad1e62117df53cfd3146b3ef09.png
 

 

Not bad!

 

My preference would be for your 3D printed version, if I'm being perfectly honest, rather than spending £30 to saw through something and it still be wrong!

 

BTW, I was looking at the Hattons 4-wheelers and (apart from lacking the distinctly Stroudlyesque treatment of the Brake Third ends) thought they would make very good LB&SCR Billinton 4-wheelers.

 

The Hattons coaches I believe scale at a shade over 27', so close to the 28' Billintons:

 

- Hattons 4-wheel 5-compt. coaches for D57 Second and D58 Third

 

- Hattons 4-wheel 4-compt coaches for D56 First 9though the Hattons coach is spaced as a 1st/2nd comp)

 

- Hattons 4-wheel Brake Third for D59/155.  The configuration is very similar, even down to the 3 panels to the luggage compartment. Double doors with droplights to both is the main difference. Hattons have an end ducket, and these were rebuilt with mouldings.  

 

I can't remember what the Hattons 4-wheel wheel base is; for the Billintons it was 16'.

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2 hours ago, The Johnster said:

They have no tumblehome and look radically different, and I am not aware of their being based on a particular prototype, but are fairly  repesentative of early 3rd class stock from the 1850s and 60s.

The Bachmann Red Coaches are based on Tennmille Gauge 1 kits purchased for the show. I can make no comment as to the accuracy of Tennmille's kits, the TV crew's construction thereof, Nitrogen Studios' CGI recreation thereof, or Bachmann's 1/76 replica thereof, but provide these pictures for reference.

C7aqD4VV0AA_kjp.jpg.6855cf130e8f85dc791852111c3aae93.jpg

PaintPotsandQueens38.png.22fa93a8796a5ca8a066fecd6013e73c.png

RedBranchLineCoaches.jpg.ad6538fc90c00abaf79a5dae2012e2e1.jpg

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2 hours ago, Nile said:

'Twas that Phil Parker wot said it, in response to a question as to whether they were accurate.

 

If they aren't designed to be accurate models of a specific coach, they are surely generic. Hornby definitely don't say they are a particular prototype. If they had, this thread would be 3 times as long. I 'd need to go back to the original video to check if Simon used the term "generic", but I've got better things to do.

 

1 hour ago, eldomtom2 said:

The Bachmann Red Coaches are based on Tennmille Gauge 1 kits purchased for the show. I can make no comment as to the accuracy of Tennmille's kits, the TV crew's construction thereof, Nitrogen Studios' CGI recreation thereof, or Bachmann's 1/76 replica thereof, but provide these pictures for reference.

 

Annie and Clarabel in the books, are bogie coaches. Anything else, IMHO, is just WRONG.

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15 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

I 'd need to go back to the original video to check if Simon used the term "generic", 

 

He certainly does in their showroom tour video, very up front about it.

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Well turns out my Father couldn’t wait for the GNR 6 wheelers so he bought the LNER ones! Does prove though there’s a lot out there who generic is plenty good enough even with the wrong company on ;) 

 

98884EE8-7898-4110-AA2C-6580CA916CAA.jpeg.0b2c3cbcded84827c138cefd2637e9cf.jpeg

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I’ve got some SR on pre order but I do like the livery on the lner and very tempted, don’t have a single lner model or even close to pull them, so for me they are just nice coaches that you can put with anything.

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I'm looking into the possibility of converting the four wheel brake into a GE example. The main difference is the guards lookout windows, six instead of four and shallower. It looks possible to be able to cut out the window aperture, file off the raised detail and fit an etched end to the coach. I will need to obtain an example first though to see if its feasible.

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3 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

Sem, as you are the man with the van and a Brighton man to boot .....

 

Can I ask you to get out your ruler and give us some measurements, please?

 

1506193647_HornbyGenericStroudleyBrake.jpg.62b7a50f8c5a6a03fa81f77315b5fa04.jpg

 

This, is, obviously, a stretched version of the Stroudley 20' D47/222 passenger brake van, as has been several times noted. Both the panel style and the ends are pure Stroudley.

 

What I had not appreciated is that the Hornby coach also has a Westinghouse brake air cylinder, again straight from a drawing of a Stroudley.  So, best not view these coaches from ground level if your locomotive is vacuum braked only (as will be the case for a majority of companies' passenger engines, of course).

 

Hattons started with just such a cylinder on their drawing, but had the wisdom, in my view, to replace it with vacuum brake cylinders, as vac brakes were used by the majority of companies and, so, were arguably a more appropriate for generic coach.

 

So, given that it is pretty much Brighton, as you say, not that appropriate for anything else, how usable is it? In other words, can it be cut and shut?

 

So, some questions for you please, Sem:

 

- What is the body height? I've read these Hornby generics are pretty low. Are they the height of the Stroudleys?

 

- What is the vertical panel width?  Your Hornby model sports five between the two sets of doors (as opposed to 3 on the prototype) and 3 at the end (as opposed to 1). In other words, if I cut and shut in two place to remove a total of 3 panels, do I reduce a model of a 26' coach to a model of a 20' coach?  Such a result would seem too good to be true, but perhaps worth checking?

 

Alternatively, another option is the slightly longer 22' version (pictures of which are rare - but one below)?  I cannot seem to find out much about this prototype, but it appears to have had an additional vertical panel at the non-brake end.

 

If, as seems logical, the vertical panels on the Hornby model scale at 2', losing three of them gets you a standard 20' D47/222 and losing 2 gets you the version below (note, you still need to make the same number of cuts, so, IMHO, you might as well go for the common 20' one).

 

This, assuming the other dimensions are correct.

 

As to the chassis, what is the Hornby wheelbase, because this would need to be reduced to 12'3"? 

 

 

1723850284_StroudleyD47-222PBVEBModels.png.57cc95c5a813c07e3c8bb0a8081a9fa1.png

Photograph EB Models

 

A number of suggestions have been made about "cut and shut" with these coaches to get a closer representation of a particular prototype.  If, as many people have told me over the years that creating pre-group livery is beyond them, the chopping up these coaches will then require repainting them, or at least restoring them "Repair Shop" fashion, which would seem to defeat the object of buying ready finished pre-group livery coaches.

 

29 minutes ago, eldomtom2 said:

Someone used the term "period-literate" way back in the Hattons thread for what they should be aiming at, which I think is a good way of putting it.

Wouldn't "period illiterate" be more appropriate?

Edited by Jol Wilkinson
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1 hour ago, eldomtom2 said:

Someone used the term "period-literate" way back in the Hattons thread for what they should be aiming at, which I think is a good way of putting it.

 

Me. 'Prototypically literate' or some such. Hattons were kind enough to say they liked that as it summed up what they were aiming for.

 

It's what they have achieved, and, IMHO, they deserve the sales.

 

 

 

Hornby, not quite so much.

 

More haste, less speed? 

 

Do take the trouble to watch the Phil Parker video of the pre-production samples. Stunning even undecorated. They even have luggage racks inside! I don't honestly know how Hattons has done it for the price.

 

As for Jol's comment, yes, I suspect that with these generic coaches you either accept them as they are, or go to a kit for a true-to-prototype coach, because, as he says, once you start carving them up, you lose perhaps their single biggest advantage, the application of a complex livery.

 

But it's fun to speculate. Generics will be closer to some prototypes than others, and I've enjoyed considering the possibilities.  Today, for instance, shows that, for the LB&SCR, the Hornby coaches make passable Stroudleys and the Hattons passable 4-wheel Billintons.

 

 

 

Edited by Edwardian
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8 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

Am I the only one thinking a parcels vehicle would look great with a giraffe sticking out of the top?

 

With the old Triang vehicle one could sort of see how the giraffe got in, but not with a parcels van with 4ft wide double doors 6ft high. Elephants would be another matter, although trunks could not be sent as luggage in advance.

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