Hornby 2021 - 4 & 6 wheel period coaches

[PhilJ W]

5 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 Elephants would be another matter, although trunks could not be sent as luggage in advance.

[Edwardian]

20 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

Am I the only one thinking a parcels vehicle would look great with a giraffe sticking out of the top?

 

You'd need to make sure there was suitable accommodation for it at your station ...

 

 

[Steamport Southport]

2 hours ago, jonnyuk said:

I’ve got some SR on pre order but I do like the livery on the lner and very tempted, don’t have a single lner model or even close to pull them, so for me they are just nice coaches that you can put with anything.

 

What you need is one of those cheap LNER black J15s.

 

Who knows, they might release more of them...

 

 

 

[Nick Holliday]

12 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

BTW, I was looking at the Hattons 4-wheelers and (apart from lacking the distinctly Stroudlyesque treatment of the Brake Third ends) thought they would make very good LB&SCR Billinton 4-wheelers.

 

The Hattons coaches I believe scale at a shade over 27', so close to the 28' Billintons:

 

- Hattons 4-wheel 5-compt. coaches for D57 Second and D58 Third

 

- Hattons 4-wheel 4-compt coaches for D56 First 9though the Hattons coach is spaced as a 1st/2nd comp)

 

- Hattons 4-wheel Brake Third for D59/155.  The configuration is very similar, even down to the 3 panels to the luggage compartment. Double doors with droplights to both is the main difference. Hattons have an end ducket, and these were rebuilt with mouldings.  

 

I can't remember what the Hattons 4-wheel wheel base is; for the Billintons it was 16'.

Have a look at Burgundy's excellent Modellers' Digest www.lbscr.org/Models/Digest/LBSCR-Modellers-Digest-12.pdf where I have tried to compare the Hatton's offerings to the real thing. I'd do the same for the Hornby if I had reasonable drawings, as working off photos isn't the best idea.

[Dunsignalling]

10 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

With the old Triang vehicle one could sort of see how the giraffe got in, but not with a parcels van with 4ft wide double doors 6ft high. Elephants would be another matter, although trunks could not be sent as luggage in advance.

The Southern also built bogie vans for transporting theatrical scenery, the sides being similar to the Bogie GLVs, but with end doors and high arc roofs. A small number were equipped with tethering rings for elephants.

 

John

 

 

[Butler Henderson]

2 hours ago, Nick Holliday said:

Have a look at Burgundy's excellent Modellers' Digest www.lbscr.org/Models/Digest/LBSCR-Modellers-Digest-12.pdf where I have tried to compare the Hatton's offerings to the real thing. 

 

Seems the 4 compartment lavatory  Composite is the most accurate for a LBSC vehicle albeit needs the third class lettering changed to second and the running number as 250 or 251 not 271. Might there be time for Hattons to make the change?

It's a pity the duckets are not separate as that would have allowed different styles to be offered, the flat roof type being provided being wrong for most of these LBSC offering and from a normal viewing distance shape is one of the key issues. Have earmarked a Hornby SR brake 3rd 6 wheeler for one end of the vintage train for my layouts preserved mode and wondering what Hattons vehicle to use at the other end.

[Edwardian]

2 hours ago, Nick Holliday said:

Have a look at Burgundy's excellent Modellers' Digest www.lbscr.org/Models/Digest/LBSCR-Modellers-Digest-12.pdf where I have tried to compare the Hatton's offerings to the real thing. I'd do the same for the Hornby if I had reasonable drawings, as working off photos isn't the best idea.

 

Thank you for that, Nick.

 

I had overlooked this, but found it tremendously useful.  I take great comfort from the fact that you, in more detail and from a more knowledgeable perspective, had identified the same Billinton 4-wheelers as a good match for the Hattons coaches, though you include more useful detail such as underframe and roof comparisions that I hadn't yet begun to consider.

 

The overlays are really helpful.

 

I really like your idea of a simple after-market etch for the brake ends and ducket sides. 

 

I can probably live with the 9" discrepancy in the w/b.  The only thing I am unsure I could live with is the fact that the 4-compt coach is, as we both note, made with 1st/2nd composite spacing, rather than as an All First.

 

For the Hattons 6-wheelers, the Lav. Comp has got to be worth having as it's such an easy fit. 

 

I would thoroughly endorse your conclusion that Brighton modellers should seriously consider using the Hattons 4-wheelers for the 3 Billinton block sets. 

 

Your article has pushed me from idle speculation to a concrete desire to try this out. 

[Compound2632]

39 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

The Southern also built bogie vans for transporting theatrical scenery, the sides being similar to the Bogie GLVs, but with end doors and high arc roofs. A small number were equipped with tethering rings for elephants.

 

See also Midland Railway Study Centre Item 05395.

[The Stationmaster]

12 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

Am I the only one thinking a parcels vehicle would look great with a giraffe sticking out of the top?

Would that be a generic giraffe? 

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

See also Midland Railway Study Centre Item 05395.

Thank you but I really had little wish to be reminded about Zonal Tickets for dogs which, believe it or not, survived for longer distances until the 1960s.  And on the relatively rare occasions somebody actually bought a ticket for a dog always meant the rate had to be checked to arrive at the correct fare.

 

Elephants were apparently always an extremely popular traffic with staff at stations where they were unloaded because the 'calling cards' they left in the van were claimed to be even better at encouraging the growth of roses than the equivalent deposited by horses.  And there was more of it with elephants

[Nick C]

19 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 

This is the main reason I'm hanging on for the Hatton's version, as it includes brake compos that have the duckets in a more conventional inboard location;

I'd say the end location is more conventional, at least in the south - a quick hunt on Google shows end duckets on the following:

 

LBSCR, LSWR, LCDR, SECR, GNR, GWR, LYR, Caledonian, GER, LNWR, M&GN

 

Whereas the only inboard duckets I've seen are GWR, or things like full brakes where the guards compartment was in the middle of the vehicle. 

 

To me personally, of the options on offer, it's the Hatton's 4w BT that looks the most 'right'. 

Edited January 17, 2021 by Nick C

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, Nick C said:

To me personally, of the options on offer, it's the Hatton's 4w BT that looks the most 'right'. 

 

Interesting. What would you say is "un-right" about the 6-wheel 5 compartment third? (Surely the most generic of generic carriages.)

 

Not criticism of your preference, just curious.

[That Model Railway Guy]

Hi everyone, my own set of the LNER 6 wheel coaches turned up yesterday so I've put together a video showing some closeups and a bit of them in action at the end. Pleased to report they ran very well even over the old dodgy setrack on my shunting layout. Posting here in case anyone finds it useful.  

 

 

[franciswilliamwebb]

31 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Would that be a generic giraffe? 

Available in a variety of liveries including Zebra, Leopard, etc.

[GreenGiraffe22]

9 minutes ago, franciswilliamwebb said:

Available in a variety of liveries including Zebra, Leopard, etc.

 

I mean, Giraffes are a minefield of 'liveries' and 'toolings' as it is, 4 different main species and sub species within those species :p 

[stephennicholson]

26 minutes ago, GreenGiraffe22 said:

 

I mean, Giraffes are a minefield of 'liveries' and 'toolings' as it is, 4 different main species and sub species within those species :p 

and not forgetting albinos

[Compound2632]

10 minutes ago, stephennicholson said:

and not forgetting albinos

 

The idea of an unpainted or "neutral" version for people to apply their own livery has been touted.

[wainwright1]

The underframes on the 6 wheeled coaches with oil pot lighting definitely look a bit spartan when they have not got the running boards fitted.

It is curious on these Hornby models that the turned metal buffers have been left bright and shiny, whereas on all other models I can think of for quite a while have had them chemically blackened. Not a problem to me as I usually paint mine anyway to get a model realistic finish.

Ray

[Nick C]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Interesting. What would you say is "un-right" about the 6-wheel 5 compartment third? (Surely the most generic of generic carriages.)

 

Not criticism of your preference, just curious.

Sorry, I meant of the options for brake thirds. 

 

Probably because most of my exposure to such vehicles is Isle of Wight based, so I'm more used to 4-wheelers and LCDR/LBSCR styling. As I said, just my preference. 

 

They're all too early for my modelling period anyway, but I'll probably still get a few of both in SR livery...

[micklner]

Re the "LNER" version reviewed  in the video above .

 

The poster has some incorrect comments.

 

They should normally be Plain Teak Brown.

 

LNER did line to suits the panel shapes, not square as suggested. The LNER and Numbers are missing colours in their make up.

 

The Brake end is truly awful design  not helped by the lining out , I have never seen a ducket which is also joined to the rear windows ?

 

Re the Brake again LNER and Numbers should be on the first inboard  panel large enough for the Lettering and Numbers  to fit into . Placing them the Ducket doesnt help the look at all.

 

I never watched anymore of the video, after the first couple of minutes.

 

My money if any, will be for the Hattons versions , correct LNER Livery , better looking and detail shown, so far on pre production versions, and the Coaches are a reasonable match to NER prototypes as well.

[micklner]

1 hour ago, Nick C said:

I'd say the end location is more conventional, at least in the south - a quick hunt on Google shows end duckets on the following:

 

LBSCR, LSWR, LCDR, SECR, GNR, GWR, LYR, Caledonian, GER, LNWR, M&GN

 

Whereas the only inboard duckets I've seen are GWR, or things like full brakes where the guards compartment was in the middle of the vehicle. 

 

To me personally, of the options on offer, it's the Hatton's 4w BT that looks the most 'right'. 

NER had inboard Duckets.

[Butler Henderson]

22 minutes ago, micklner said:

The Brake end is truly awful design  not helped by the lining out , I have never seen a ducket which is also joined to the rear windows ?

A LBSCR design; the only vehicles which are at all appropriate in that respect in the current offerings are the SR ones,

 

[Chris116]

32 minutes ago, Butler Henderson said:

A LBSCR design; 

 

One of the lovely Isle of Wight Steam Railway four wheel coaches that ride better than the 1938 stock did on the Island Line. I hope they sort out the track on the Island Line so the ex-D stock give a better ride!

[Edwardian]

40 minutes ago, micklner said:

Re the "LNER" version reviewed  in the video above .

 

The poster has some incorrect comments.

 

I broadly agree with your reaction to the coaches in this livery, however ....

 

40 minutes ago, micklner said:

They should normally be Plain Teak Brown.

 

I should think that any 4 or 6-wheelers surviving to LNER days would be painted 'coach brown', not varnished wood?

 

 

40 minutes ago, micklner said:

LNER did line to suits the panel shapes, not square as suggested. The LNER and Numbers are missing colours in their make up.

 

The Brake end is truly awful design  not helped by the lining out , I have never seen a ducket which is also joined to the rear windows ?

 

Say, rather, a particularly inappropriate design?

 

As Brightonians have pointed out, Hornby have not strayed from the Stroudley origins of their design in relation to the brake ends. So, not awful!

 

As to applying a livery in spite, as it were, the design of the coach, for me this 'denial by lining' only works from several feet away! Any closer and it simply emphasises that the design does not suit the livery. 

 

However, regarding a ducket "which is also joined to the rear windows", the LB&SCR was hardly unique in that. The Great Eastern, for example.  

 

40 minutes ago, micklner said:

Re the Brake again LNER and Numbers should be on the first inboard  panel large enough for the Lettering and Numbers  to fit into . Placing them the Ducket doesnt help the look at all.

 

I never watched anymore of the video, after the first couple of minutes.

 

I seldom find that sort of thing useful, so only really bother if it's Jenny Kirk!

 

40 minutes ago, micklner said:

 

My money if any, will be for the Hattons versions , correct LNER Livery , better looking and detail shown, so far on pre production versions, and the Coaches are a reasonable match to NER prototypes as well.

 

Yes, I agree, the Hattons are not a bad overall match to NER in terms of general appearance. 

 

- 32' 6-wheel coaches, as Hattons

- Generally similar panel style 

- IIRC the same 6-wheel w/b

- Flat ends

- Flat-topped duckets

 

[sem34090]

20 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

Sem, as you are the man with the van and a Brighton man to boot .....

 

Can I ask you to get out your ruler and give us some measurements, please?

I'll get onto it soon enough...

20 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

This, is, obviously, a stretched version of the Stroudley 20' D47/222 passenger brake van, as has been several times noted. Both the panel style and the ends are pure Stroudley.

 

What I had not appreciated is that the Hornby coach also has a Westinghouse brake air cylinder, again straight from a drawing of a Stroudley.  So, best not view these coaches from ground level if your locomotive is vacuum braked only (as will be the case for a majority of companies' passenger engines, of course).

 

Hattons started with just such a cylinder on their drawing, but had the wisdom, in my view, to replace it with vacuum brake cylinders, as vac brakes were used by the majority of companies and, so, were arguably a more appropriate for generic coach.

 

So, given that it is pretty much Brighton, as you say, not that appropriate for anything else, how usable is it? In other words, can it be cut and shut?

Based on other comments it may be a tough job, but I'm planning to give it a shot anyway given I have one.

20 hours ago, Edwardian said:

So, some questions for you please, Sem:

 

- What is the body height? I've read these Hornby generics are pretty low. Are they the height of the Stroudleys?

 

- What is the vertical panel width?  Your Hornby model sports five between the two sets of doors (as opposed to 3 on the prototype) and 3 at the end (as opposed to 1). In other words, if I cut and shut in two place to remove a total of 3 panels, do I reduce a model of a 26' coach to a model of a 20' coach?  Such a result would seem too good to be true, but perhaps worth checking?

 

Alternatively, another option is the slightly longer 22' version (pictures of which are rare - but one below)?  I cannot seem to find out much about this prototype, but it appears to have had an additional vertical panel at the non-brake end.

 

If, as seems logical, the vertical panels on the Hornby model scale at 2', losing three of them gets you a standard 20' D47/222 and losing 2 gets you the version below (note, you still need to make the same number of cuts, so, IMHO, you might as well go for the common 20' one).

 

This, assuming the other dimensions are correct.

 

As to the chassis, what is the Hornby wheelbase, because this would need to be reduced to 12'3"? 

 

 

Photograph EB Models

I'll report back later, but I'm hoping a representation of a Brighton passenger brake can be cobbled. If not then I'll do something else with the bits.