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Hornby 2021 - 4 & 6 wheel period coaches


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8 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Or alternatively, Hornby not supplying the numbers ordered by Hattons.


I think a while ago Hattons made a public statement saying that they allow more pre-orders from customers than the amount they have allocated from Hornby. I don't recall which thread this was discussed in but I do remember seeing that statement being put up either on rmweb or facebook.

 

We can't just blame Hornby for everything. I really don't understand why Hattons allows people to pre-order more than their allocation from Hornby. It does no one good and in the end people blame Hornby for it. If Hattons gets 100 of R1234 then they should only allow pre-orders for 100 pieces of R1234. If 20 people cancel their pre-orders Hattons has 20 extra to sell. If Kernow Model Rail Centre can do that, then I am sure Hattons can.

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29 minutes ago, MGR Hooper! said:


I think a while ago Hattons made a public statement saying that they allow more pre-orders from customers than the amount they have allocated from Hornby. I don't recall which thread this was discussed in but I do remember seeing that statement being put up either on rmweb or facebook.

 

We can't just blame Hornby for everything. I really don't understand why Hattons allows people to pre-order more than their allocation from Hornby. It does no one good and in the end people blame Hornby for it. If Hattons gets 100 of R1234 then they should only allow pre-orders for 100 pieces of R1234. If 20 people cancel their pre-orders Hattons has 20 extra to sell. If Kernow Model Rail Centre can do that, then I am sure Hattons can.

 

Just suppose for a second that Hattons want 100, and request 100 from Hornby. They put the item on sale, and all 100 sell out to pre-orders. Hornby then advise them that their allocation will actually be 80, due to demand (letting everyone get a fair share). Hattons, in all good faith, have taken orders, but perhaps should have waited until their allocation was confirmed? Thing is, if they do that, they risk losing out on sales to people who haven't waited! I don't think it's easy for either party.

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Just now, Oldddudders said:

Could it be that Hornby consider that they ought to give all their dealers a supply, rather than letting one or two prominent mail-order houses, known to offer pre-orders and maybe a price advantage, scoop the pool? 

I doubt it.  Excatluy the same thing has happened in the past with my - much smaller than Hattons - 'local' retailer.  The retailer orders from Hornby in accordance with his customer pre-orders and whatever number he wants to take into stock.  the system works reliably until Hornby apply ratiuoning and then all retailers get hit - upsetting some of their regular customers in the process.  In one case , and being loyal to my retailer (odd tho' that might sound) the models in question came out but the retailer received only two instead of the 20 or whatever which he had ordered.  I then had to wait over a year until Hornby supplied the balance of his pre-order.

 

It's nothing new with Hornby and it's really down to them not matching production orders with retailer orders although that in turn is probably due to them placing their production before they get in the retailers' orders.  The rror on their part would seem top be in taking orders from retailers for goods they cannot supply and then having to impose rationing.  It was even worse at one time (not under the present regime) when they were cutting back on retilers' siupplies and putting teh stuff out through direct sales instead.

 

Retailers do however face another problem and that is the percentage of 'no shows' on customer pre-orders and in some cases they no doubt have to balance that against what they will be spending on stock.  i know of one retailer where the 'no show' rate on pre-orders is sometimes as high as 10% and while that can often be sold through new customers coming along to replace those who dropped out it could equally mean stock not shifting and costing the retailer money.

 

I suspect that the way some parts of the industry now work sitruations with this are going to be difficult to avoid because manufacturers/commssioners need to be really cute in getting their numbers right on orders because they can be left holding stock which doesn't shift.  That is turn suggests to me a need to really understand how the market is working and possibly a need to be very careful about the number of variants offered which will in turn complicate stock holdings.  And that means accurately predicting what is going to sell fast and what isn't.

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14 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

Could it be that Hornby consider that they ought to give all their dealers a supply, rather than letting one or two prominent mail-order houses, known to offer pre-orders and maybe a price advantage, scoop the pool? 

It is well known that Hornby allocate across their retail customers if there is a shortfall. The issue of discount by retailers is irrelevant as Hornby set a minimum price of 10% below rrp, which most retailers now use as their selling price.

The issue is when does the retailer become aware that they are not going to receive their full order. At the beginning g of the year retailers put in their orders, presumably Hornby know at the end of that process whether they have sufficient on order from the manufacturer, as manufacturing slots will have already been booked and levels agreed, certainly for an item appearing so quickly in the year. Hornby should be able to notify retailers fairly quickly that they have to allocate, the retailer should then notify affected customers. These coaches, having been advertised only a few weeks before they are released, has truncated the time that this notification could take place, as we are less than 3 weeks after the 2021 release programme and potentially some retailers have only just completed their orders. I don't think in this case, that customers could have been advised any earlier.

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I previously suggested I was looking at cutting and shutting the Hornby Full Brake into an approximation of its Stroudley progenitor, but a chance buy on eBay, at the same price as a Hornby vehicle, means that I know have a Roxey Mouldings brass example instead. I've therefore taken the opportunity to compare this to the Hornby example, which may also offer an indication of how the wider Hornby range compares to Stroudley stock;

IMG_20210121_110912_509.jpg.932156e588856c7aefa009210a1188ec.jpg

IMG_20210121_110938_830.jpg.fad69abc2439173b2c68ea1fc002418d.jpg

IMG_20210121_110958_230.jpg.9a582d65ffd0bc2ec4d09f3334a82cfb.jpg

IMG_20210121_111030_324.jpg.065d93727afea049b546411184414346.jpg

IMG_20210121_111156_143.jpg.68aab996d93d5d58ae00a3b62f31d13a.jpg

IMG_20210121_114038_618.jpg.dd8f9094c25f4bcad2f411c318454622.jpg

IMG_20210121_111358_736.jpg.5523431601ebc85474ab9f008b58fa89.jpg

IMG_20210121_111305_704.jpg.54b188fdc72817a9ab18e545676f1f51.jpg

Edited by sem34090
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It'll be interesting to see how all of this pans out, because we have an unusual situation here. Ordinarily, in consultation with the marketing people, a manufacturer will anticipate the demand fairly accurately and produce a certain number of say Stanier coaches in LMS livery and probably rather more in BR livery, and so away we go.

 

Here on the other hand we have a product range, which is first split between four wheel and six wheel coaches and then between those with and without lights. Then we have an unprecedented variety of liveries. Most of these liveries are going to be relatively niche and nearly all of them unpredictable insofar as there's little or no reliable information on the market. 

 

Judging by the comments on this thread, coaches to hang on the back of a Terrier will be popular, the NBR ones I have on pre-order, probably much less so. In time [next year and beyond] Hornby will have a much better idea of what people want, but in this first release I suspect that the quantities of each livery released could be quite small

Edited by Caledonian
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51 minutes ago, sem34090 said:

 a chance buy on eBay, at the same price as a Hornby vehicle, means that I know have a Roxey Mouldings brass example instead. I've therefore taken the opportunity to compare this to the Hornby example, which may also offer an indication of how the wider Hornby range compares to Stroudley stock;

 

Those photos show what clanger Hornby have made by making a very uncommon brake end generic.  The offering would have been better if at least the brakes in particular were correct for the LBSC.

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56 minutes ago, Butler Henderson said:

Those photos show what clanger Hornby have made by making a very uncommon brake end generic.  The offering would have been better if at least the brakes in particular were correct for the LBSC.

 

From the point of view of the LBSC and its successors that lack of total fidelity is obviously going to be disappointing, but that particular market is so very much smaller than the one Hornby is aiming for. At the most basic level I have no interest at all in purchasing LBSC/Southern/British Railways[Southern] coaches, but I have been tempted by the NBR ones, notwithstanding the limitations

Edited by Caledonian
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3 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

Could it be that Hornby consider that they ought to give all their dealers a supply, rather than letting one or two prominent mail-order houses, known to offer pre-orders and maybe a price advantage, scoop the pool? 

About 18 months ago our society (SEERS) had Simon Kolner as a guest speaker. He said that Hattons (and some others) have a habit of accepting all pre-orders and expecting suppliers to cover them. The result is that Hornby will not guarantee that those extra orders will be filled, from any trader. Unfortunately this has resulted in some smaller traders not taking pre-orders.

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2 hours ago, Caledonian said:

It'll be interesting to see how all of this pans out, because we have an unusual situation here. Ordinarily, in consultation with the marketing people, a manufacturer will anticipate the demand fairly accurately and produce a certain number of say Stanier coaches in LMS livery and probably rather more in BR livery, and so away we go.

 

Here on the other hand we have a product range, which is first split between four wheel and six wheel coaches and then between those with and without lights. Then we have an unprecedented variety of liveries. Most of these liveries are going to be relatively niche and nearly all of them unpredictable insofar as there's little or no reliable information on the market. 

 

Judging by the comments on this thread, coaches to hang on the back of a Terrier will be popular, the NBR ones I have on pre-order, probably much less so. In time [next year and beyond] Hornby will have a much better idea of what people want, but in this first release I suspect that the quantities of each livery released could be quite small

 

Currently Hattons have 372 different buying options listed for the genesis coaches. Add in the Hornby range and possible batch 3 liveries from Hattons and market must be well covered...

https://www.hattons.co.uk/stocklist/1484058/1000588/1000636/0/hattons_originals_oo_gauge_1_76_scale_coaches/prodlist.aspx?pageid=5

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3 hours ago, sem34090 said:

I previously suggested I was looking at cutting and shutting the Hornby Full Brake into an approximation of its Stroudley progenitor, but a chance buy on eBay, at the same price as a Hornby vehicle, means that I know have a Roxey Mouldings brass example instead. I've therefore taken the opportunity to compare this to the Hornby example, which may also offer an indication of how the wider Hornby range compares to Stroudley stock;

IMG_20210121_110912_509.jpg.932156e588856c7aefa009210a1188ec.jpg

IMG_20210121_110938_830.jpg.fad69abc2439173b2c68ea1fc002418d.jpg

IMG_20210121_110958_230.jpg.9a582d65ffd0bc2ec4d09f3334a82cfb.jpg

IMG_20210121_111030_324.jpg.065d93727afea049b546411184414346.jpg

IMG_20210121_111156_143.jpg.68aab996d93d5d58ae00a3b62f31d13a.jpg

IMG_20210121_114038_618.jpg.dd8f9094c25f4bcad2f411c318454622.jpg

IMG_20210121_111358_736.jpg.5523431601ebc85474ab9f008b58fa89.jpg

IMG_20210121_111305_704.jpg.54b188fdc72817a9ab18e545676f1f51.jpg

 

'Get a room'! (fourth picture from top).

 

1 hour ago, Caledonian said:

rs that lack of total fidelity is obviously going to be disappointing, but that particular market is so very much

smaller than the one Hornby is aiming for

 

It is the reason I will not be buying Hornby 4 wheel Brake Thirds, and I doubt I am unique in this, so they are denying themselves potential sales from the 'generic' market.  This patter of brake van end  is peculiar to and highly suggestive of the Brighton, and specifying in this way is not really ideal in a 'generic' model. 

 

5 hours ago, Coryton said:

 

I'm not sure I'd have the confidence that Hornby would still have them by then.

 

This is a risk, of course, and I may well buy my Hornby 4 wheel 3rd at an earlier opportunity, but now just I am concentrating funds on the Bachmann 94xx and food for the next week (poor pensioner, fixed income, cue violins and all that) so won't be doing it for a few weeks at least.  I can manage all this, but not all at the same time!  If I am caught out, it's a 1st world problem, and I have no doubt Hornby will commision another production batch, unless these are spectacularly unsuccessful, in which case there'll be plenty on shelves.  And there's always the Bay of E.

 

My cashflow means that I must micromanage and pre-plan my railway budget and I order, and buy, models on a fairly regulated basis, but, if I am able, I will 'bite' for offers I think are not going to be repeated if I can do so at that particular point in time without compromising bills and essenttials; the Bure Valley prairie being  a classic example.  I allow myself these treats on the justification that the price of models is increasing at a faster rate than my pensions.  While pleading poverty, I am not in the underclass, in that my income puts me in an income tax paying bracket.  Proper middle class, me...

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I'll be buying a plainer livery for my 4 wheelers, for no other reason that it would be a crime against decency and taste to obliterate these superbly executed GWR fully lined out works of art with a coat of BR crimson and a top coat of early 50s muck.

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45 minutes ago, Mel_H said:

This may have been posted in one of the other 38 pages on this thread, if so, admin please delete!

 

Otherwise, here's some prototype inspiration.

 

DE962673 at Stratford in about 1965. Not listed by Longworth but believed to be an ex GER 6-wheel Brake Third. Photo: Graham Young

 

Source: https://www.ltsv.com/rd/photo_view.php?id=5387

DE962673.jpg

Significantly closer to Hattons than Hornby.

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1 hour ago, Mel_H said:

This may have been posted in one of the other 38 pages on this thread, if so, admin please delete!

 

Otherwise, here's some prototype inspiration.

 

DE962673 at Stratford in about 1965. Not listed by Longworth but believed to be an ex GER 6-wheel Brake Third. Photo: Graham Young

 

Source: https://www.ltsv.com/rd/photo_view.php?id=5387

 

 

I presume that's an external hand brake visible on the left. Is that something that would have been added for departmental use?

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5 minutes ago, Coryton said:

 

I presume that's an external hand brake visible on the left. Is that something that would have been added for departmental use?

 

Yes, There is (or perhaps was) a brake standard in the guard's compartment. I wonder if it was removed and replaced by this external brake wheel - presumably there was also one on the other side. 

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16 hours ago, The Johnster said:

It is the reason I will not be buying Hornby 4 wheel Brake Thirds, and I doubt I am unique in this, so they are denying themselves potential sales from the 'generic' market.  This patter(n) of brake van end  is peculiar to and highly suggestive of the Brighton, and specifying in this way is not really ideal in a 'generic' model. 

 

The Brighton wasn't unique in this sort of ducket arrangement. @brossard is building an NBR vehicle with a similar layout, although closer to the Hatton's version, and several other lines had similar examples, but of course the roof profile (semi-elliptical?) is very different, but quite common throughout the UK, perhaps another "generic" failure from the manufacturers?

911531260_brossardnbrbrake.jpg.5541dae4779f26f087cb81e999ed021c.jpg

 

12 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

Or, indeed, side on; the ends are flat, there is no turn-under to the ends as was GWR practice (as there is, e.g. on the Ratio 4-wheelers and Triang clerestories).  

Although the end turn-under was the GWR general practice, they did built flat-ended examples in the 1870's which also had a simple arc roof. There are a number of examples on @Penrhos1920 website, as this snapshot shows. (I hope Penrhos doesn't mind) Originally built as a six wheeler, it would seem that many were converted to four, and they were probably formed into close coupled sets, hence the flat ends.

1521489284_gwrsecond.png.87107800cd59c6f2ec8005e8e428f04c.png

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1 hour ago, Nick Holliday said:

but of course the roof profile (semi-elliptical?) is very different, but quite common throughout the UK, perhaps another "generic" failure from the manufacturers?

 

The 19th century 4 and 6-wheeled carriages of the LNWR, MR, GER, NER, LYR, and MSLR had arc roofs. The 4 and 6-wheel carriage stock of those companies alone accounts for a large majority of such vehicles in England and Wales. To this we can add carriages of the GWR and LSWR dating from before the (mid?) 1890s, along with the carriages of various smaller companies, notably NSR, FR, and Cam Rys. So I think one can safely assert that the arc roof is "generic".

 

The GNR, LSWR and GWR from the 1890s, and SER in I think just the very last years before the working union, used higher roof profiles - these were not semi-elliptical but three-centred, having a uniform large radius over most of the width with a tighter radius curve at the eves. A similar profile was used for the lower roof of the LNWR's dining saloons from 1893 Midland's clerestory carriages from 1896; it became standard for a few years in the Edwardian period on the LNWR, where it is referred to as a "cove" roof, before giving way to the true semi-elliptical roof, which is definitely a 20th century thing.

 

I'm not so well up on Scottish carriages but I think only the NBR made widespread use of the three-centred arc roof in the 19th century. I'm not aware of any Irish examples.

 

I'd confidently assert that the three-centred arc roof was unusual in the overall context of late 19th-century carriages, although of course highly characteristic of a handful of companies but not, with the exception of the GWR, those with the largest fleets of carriages.

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3 hours ago, Nick Holliday said:

The Brighton wasn't unique in this sort of ducket arrangement. @brossard is building an NBR vehicle with a similar layout, although closer to the Hatton's version, and several other lines had similar examples, but of course the roof profile (semi-elliptical?) is very different, but quite common throughout the UK, perhaps another "generic" failure from the manufacturers?

911531260_brossardnbrbrake.jpg.5541dae4779f26f087cb81e999ed021c.jpg

 

Although the end turn-under was the GWR general practice, they did built flat-ended examples in the 1870's which also had a simple arc roof. There are a number of examples on @Penrhos1920 website, as this snapshot shows. (I hope Penrhos doesn't mind) Originally built as a six wheeler, it would seem that many were converted to four, and they were probably formed into close coupled sets, hence the flat ends.

1521489284_gwrsecond.png.87107800cd59c6f2ec8005e8e428f04c.png

 

Yes, GER is another line with a similar brake end arrangement.

 

Regarding the GWR, if one accept generics in the spirit they were intended, I see no problem. 

 

If , on the other hand, one wants to suggest that the generics are a particularly good match for the GWR, which is how I took the post I was answering, then, no, they are not.

 

As you say, your example is an earlier design (1870s), with very deep eaves panels. Not a great match for the 'generic' panel styling. Neither generic range particularly represents coaches as old as the '70s terribly well.  As has been mentioned often, Stroudley seems to have pioneered the panel style found on the 'generics'.  It is not widespread and typical until much later in the Century. For instance, by the time the GWR had a body panel style close to that of the generics, it (a) built them with end turn-unders (my earlier point), (b) built them with elliptical roof profiles and (c) had stopped building 6-wheelers.* 

 

So, the combination of features found on the generics is not a particularly good match for the GW at any stage of their coach development. Just pointing out one consistent feature doesn't affect that.

 

However, I think the main point here is that some people will embrace them as 'good enough' in general appearance, which is the intent behind these products. I have absolutely no problem with that. 

 

* I daresay there is the odd oddity or absorbed coach that defies this generalisation, but there is no virtue in offering the exception as the rule.

 

 

 

.  

 

Edited by Edwardian
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1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

The 19th century 4 and 6-wheeled carriages of the LNWR, MR, GER, NER, LYR, and MSLR had arc roofs. The 4 and 6-wheel carriage stock of those companies alone accounts for a large majority of such vehicles in England and Wales. To this we can add carriages of the GWR and LSWR dating from before the (mid?) 1890s, along with the carriages of various smaller companies, notably NSR, FR, and Cam Rys. So I think one can safely assert that the arc roof is "generic".

 

The GNR, LSWR and GWR from the 1890s, and SER in I think just the very last years before the working union, used higher roof profiles - these were not semi-elliptical but three-centred, having a uniform large radius over most of the width with a tighter radius curve at the eves. A similar profile was used for the lower roof of the LNWR's dining saloons from 1893 Midland's clerestory carriages from 1896; it became standard for a few years in the Edwardian period on the LNWR, where it is referred to as a "cove" roof, before giving way to the true semi-elliptical roof, which is definitely a 20th century thing.

 

I'm not so well up on Scottish carriages but I think only the NBR made widespread use of the three-centred arc roof in the 19th century. I'm not aware of any Irish examples.

 

I'd confidently assert that the three-centred arc roof was unusual in the overall context of late 19th-century carriages, although of course highly characteristic of a handful of companies but not, with the exception of the GWR, those with the largest fleets of carriages.

 

To add to what m' Learned Friend has just said, the LB&SCR would be another arc-roof 4 and 6-wheel coach builder.  As to the LSWR, we can place that company fully in the arc-roof camp so far as 4 and 6-wheel carriages are concerned; when bogie carriages were introduced by the SW in the '80s, they too were arc-roofed.  The SW elliptical roofs didn't come in until about 1893, IIRC, on bogie carriages.  

 

The arc roof is an apposite choice for a generic coach. IMHO.

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