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Hornby 2021 - 4 & 6 wheel period coaches


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11 hours ago, mi-go-a-go-go said:

Yes thats correct they do indeed have the oil lamp fittings in the roof. 

 

So that makes sense. Hornby need to update their product pictures. 

 

The bottom looks very errrrr naked though. Mys eyes keep being drawn to its bareness.......lol

 

Cheers for that Nile

 

 

There were quite a lot of naked bottoms before automatic brakes were insisted upon in the wake of the Armagh tragedy; trains looked pretty much like the standard image of pushalong toy trains.

 

10 hours ago, Mel_H said:

 

Has anyone tried fitting a resistor to reduce the LED output, given that oil lamps were presumably not very bright in real life (never seen a 1:1 in action)? 

A resistor will increase the load on the battery and shorten it's life, though I'd imagine performance would still be acceptable to most people.  An alternative, as LEDs do not emit much heat, not at this power level anyway, is to paint cream matt acrylic over the diodes, which, depending on how you dilute the paint and how many coats you apply, will give a good representation of the feeble glow of early electric filament bulbs, gas lamps, and oil lamps; there was not that much difference in the brightness of the light each of them provided.  IMHO all model railway lighting is far too bright, as the producers tend to want it to be plainly visible in ambient room light or even daylight; the protoype was barely visible even in decent moonlight!  The Hornby lighting is not too bad as RTR lighting goes, but is still too bright, especially for 19th century stock.

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6 hours ago, SR Chris said:

I find shunting three link fitted wagons too difficult in the dark! I

 

Make an illuminated shunting pole, a small torch or flashlight with a hooked extension superglued to it, and a piece of stiff wire superglued to that. 

 

5 hours ago, Coryton said:

I think Hornby win just a little on the livery application, for a start.

 

 Bounds and swingabouts, or something, and much depends on which livery we are talking about.  I think the lights are better on the Hornbys, and the battery system much better (but at the cost of a raised compartment floor on some coaches), but Hattons are modifying theirs before final release and I reckon Hattons has the edge for detail; separate lamp irons for example, and luggage racks, and a better sideplay system for the centre axle of the 6 wheelers.  In many ways there is not much between them and choice can be dcatated by which one suits the prototype it is intended to represent on your layout most closely.  The end tunmblehome on Hattons vs the vertical ends on the Hornbys will make a big difference here.

 

5 hours ago, scots region said:

do lights really add that much?

 

Matter of choice; they don't detract that much either, and you get the choice of having them or not.  My BLT layout runs a real time timetable (though periods when no trains are running are 'condensed') starting at 05.25 am with the arrival of a miner's workman's, which is what I will be purchasing 4 wheelers for, and  05.25 is before even pre-dawn light for much of the year.  I have not yet made the decision  to light this train as it is probable that the prototype was either unlit or often had battery issues caused by it's short low distance run.  Next train is an auto, but this is ecs and does not need to be lit, and is away at 06;15, still dark for the winter months; this train is lit. 

 

Trains run until the last arrives at 23.55, dark even is summer, and this uses the same lit auto stock, but with nearly 8 hours of service on winter evenings, more stock needs to be capable of being lit and the Hornby lighting, separately available, is ideal for this.  As there is not yet a system of illuminating loco head and train tail lights that can be changed (this is a terminus) I cannot do full on night time running, but dimly lit stock in the low main room lighting is effective, as is platform, yard, and interior building lighting and lit semaphore signals; all have had to be 'toned down' though.  Signal lighting should not be visible in 'daylight'.

 

My layout lights are LED anglpoises with 3 different colour settings and 3 brightness levels, which I find useful for suggesting times of day at different seasons and different weather.  Real light is not constant.

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2 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

Yes, but if I wanted to model the era in which a 'Mark 3 Sleeper'* existed - whatever one of those is - I'd care enough for it to be right.

 

But, given that pre-Grouping is a burgeoning interest, with 1,000s of unfamiliar prototypes, something generic, yet representative, is not a bad place to start.

 

 

Call me fussy, but whatever era I choose to model, I want it right.

 

If you expect accuracy in contemporary rolling stock then surely it is more than a little inconsistent to think that freelance stock is acceptable because the majority are not aware of the real thing?

 

There may have been many different prototypes but freelance models are only acceptable because of what you say - they are unfamiliar and people do not care.

 

With calls for freelance bogie coaches and goods stock by some to me this only plays to the lococentric part of the hobby and does nothing at all to further genuine pre-grouping modelling.

 

I would happily fork out my money to purchase early rolling stock(RTR)  that fits to my chosen era but freelance? 

 

A big no thank you.

 

Regards,

 

Craig W

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5 hours ago, Craigw said:

 

Call me fussy

 

Fussy

 

5 hours ago, Craigw said:

If you expect accuracy in contemporary rolling stock then

 

I have no views regarding contemporary rolling stock. 

 

5 hours ago, Craigw said:

surely it is more than a little inconsistent to think that freelance stock is acceptable

 

Not when one chiefly models a freelance line.

 

5 hours ago, Craigw said:

freelance stock is acceptable because the majority are not aware of the real thing?

 

That's rather up to the majority, I would imagine.

 

Personally, unless the generic stock could be modified to match any particular prototype, I would not use it to represent something it is not. But that is my personal preference merely, and I see the appeal to others of generic and the benefits of introducing more people to earlier periods so I welcome that. 

 

My head has not, thus far, exploded under any pressure of inconsistency. 

 

5 hours ago, Craigw said:

There may have been many different prototypes but freelance models are only acceptable because of what you say - they are unfamiliar and people do not care.

 

Indeed, I don't disagree with that. But, also, I do not judge in that I do not bemoan that unfamiliarity.  I don't doubt many will enjoy these coaches on the basis that they appear close enough to their eyes. For many, the journey will end there, and the Rule No.1 in this hobby is surely to do what gives you pleasure, so that's fair enough in my book.  Yet, I agree with Compound and others who suggest that a minority will develop an interest in a given company/period and want in due course to take it further, acquiring more knowledge and skills along the way. 

 

So, I see such releases as win, win for the hobby and, again, am not troubled by any sense of inconsistency. 

 

5 hours ago, Craigw said:

With calls for freelance bogie coaches and goods stock by some to me this only plays to the lococentric part of the hobby and does nothing at all to further genuine pre-grouping modelling.

 

There I tend to disagree for the reason given above. It's not that you have the alternative of more than an insignificant fraction of pre-Grouping matériel being produced RTR. I see this as baby steps.  In the meantime, kits in both traditional materials and 3D remain for "genuine"  pre-Grouping modellers, but RTR generics has at least made the period more accessible.   

 

5 hours ago, Craigw said:

I would happily fork out my money to purchase early rolling stock(RTR)  that fits to my chosen era but freelance? 

 

A big no thank you.

 

Which would tend to conclude your business in this topic; I mean, forgive me, but why is it necessary to come on to a product topic in order to say you are not interested in the product? 

 

 

5 hours ago, Craigw said:

Regards,

 

Craig W

 

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2 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

 

 

 

 

Which would tend to conclude your business in this topic; I mean, forgive me, but why is it necessary to come on to a product topic in order to say you are not interested in the product? 

 

 

 

 

Because I have been following it, saw your comment which seemed to say that you would want accuracy for modern stock but it does not bother your for older stock.... oh, and I can comment if I want to?

 

Craig W

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Just now, Craigw said:

 

Because I have been following it, saw your comment which seemed to say that you would want accuracy for modern stock but it does not bother your for older stock.... oh, and I can comment if I want to?

 

Craig W

 

Well, Craig, nobody said you can't comment, but given you are evidently not interested in the product, or accepting of the principle behind it, the obvious question you beg is why you are following it. 

 

Be that as it may, that might be what you understood me to say, but that's not what I said.  

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Gentlemen, please. It's just as well you're half a world apart!

 

12 hours ago, Coryton said:

I think Hornby win just a little on the livery application, for a start.

 

I'm not sure how you arrive at that statement as no livery samples of the Hattons carriages have yet been seen. However, I happen to know that Hattons have gone to considerable pains to make their liveries as accurate as can be given the generic nature of the carriages, whilst Hornby have made some glaring errors. Their representation of LNWR or GNR livery does not convince at all (but is always going to be a challenge with the type of panelling represented). The GWR livery falls down badly because the beading is lined out adjacent to the quarter-lights, where we should see the black coming up to the mahogany of the (non-existent) bolection. The LNER livery is plain wrong and the BR livery downright unlikely, for 4 or 6-wheeled carriages.

 

I know you've said such details don't bother you and to some extent I agree that they may be irrelevant on a model that isn't intended to represent a particular prototype but I do feel that within the parameters of the idea of a "generic" product the evidence is that Hattons are on the road to making something that more convincingly looks like a carriage of the 1880s/90s than have Hornby. 

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6 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 

  The end tunmblehome on Hattons vs the vertical ends on the Hornbys will make a big difference here.

 

Since neither Hornby nor Hattons have modelled a turn-under to the ends, (not a tumblehome anyway) this won't be a differentiating factor!

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13 hours ago, Coryton said:

 

I don't mind much if it's not obvious to me.

 

Errors in - say - a Mk 3 sleeper stand out to me because I've spent so many nights on one.

 

But something that I'd have to look up to find was wrong doesn't bother me very much.

 

 

 

In the same vein, I'd have to look up whats running out there today. Given that the modern day railway pretty much anywhere can be represented by a class 66 and a class 150, aren't modern railways generic as a whole anyway? :jester:

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13 hours ago, scots region said:

Not to be contrarian, but do lights really add that much? You can't really see them in the day and they wouldn't be on anyway. 

 

It's a yes/no from me. My comment here does not refer to these 4/6 whel coaches in particular but is generic.

 

My exhibition layout is (very) foreign and therefore attracts a naturely (very) niche market of viewers. My HO coaches have very detailed interiors and so, in order to widen my layouts appeal at exhibitions. I decided to fully populate all my coaches and not just plop down some seated people at random - the people in my coaches interacted with each other  - and I spent days/weeks/months on this aspect of my layout.

 

At my next exhibition my team pro-actively pointed out the (now) super-detailed coach interiors in the trains that passed through the layout.

 

Result? 

 

No-one could see the detailed interiors - even when they were pointed out to them, because the coaches were too dark. So, for my next show I had fitted the same design of lighting now adopted by Hornby.

 

Result? The mums, dads & kids market can see the detail and love it. So, my layout now appeals to two seperate markets - the (very) niche foreign market and the mums, dads and children - RESULT!

 

So, lets hope we see more fully detailed (lit) coaches on layouts in future as I totally agree that lit basic interiors are a waste of time.

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9 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Two World wars, disasters, epedemics ('Spanish' Flu' killed more than the World War that preceeded it), death camps, ethnic cleansing, crimes against humanity, mad dictators, poisonous ideals, repeated genocide, totalitarianism, terrorism; if you're going to overlook a century, this is probably the best one to overlook...

So far, but a lot of those things haven't gone away, we're just fortunate enough to live in a place where (most of the time) we can just switch channels to avoid being made aware of them.

 

Given what's been going on over the past year (or four), writing off the last century involves making some pretty optimistic assumptions about how the current one is going to pan out....

 

John

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3 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

So far, but a lot of those things haven't gone away, we're just fortunate enough to live in a place where (most of the time) we can just switch channels to avoid being made aware of them.

 

Given what's been going on over the past year (or four), writing off the last century involves making some pretty optimistic assumptions about how the current one is going to pan out....

 

John

 

To be fair, John, I don't expect many of us will be in a position to sum up the 21st century in comparison with its predecessor!

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9 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 

Make an illuminated shunting pole, a small torch or flashlight with a hooked extension superglued to it, and a piece of stiff wire superglued to that. 

 

 

 Bounds and swingabouts, or something, and much depends on which livery we are talking about.  I think the lights are better on the Hornbys, and the battery system much better...

Hornby lighting, separately available, is ideal 

With any Hattons ones I would be tempted to use conducting couplers to link at least the pick ups between them or 4 way ones so only one DCC decoder is needed. If that worked then convert the Hornby ones in the rake to also work off the decoder accessory output.

The Hornby light unit individually is an expensive copy of those already available from Layouts4u

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1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

 

To be fair, John, I don't expect many of us will be in a position to sum up the 21st century in comparison with its predecessor!

Agreed, and I'm possibly glad I'm not going to be around for some of what might occur.

 

John 

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15 hours ago, Coryton said:

The pricing does seem quite good compared with ~£30-£35 for this.

 

I think Hornby win just a little on the livery application, for a start.

A couple of people have commented on this without noticing that Coryton was comparing Hornby to Bachmann (TTTE), not Hatton's. Those old TTTE coaches do look rather poor value for money now, at list price. Kernow had them at a much lower price, so no surprise they have sold out.

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9 hours ago, Craigw said:

 

Call me fussy, but whatever era I choose to model, I want it right.

 

If you expect accuracy in contemporary rolling stock then surely it is more than a little inconsistent to think that freelance stock is acceptable because the majority are not aware of the real thing?

 

There may have been many different prototypes but freelance models are only acceptable because of what you say - they are unfamiliar and people do not care.

 

With calls for freelance bogie coaches and goods stock by some to me this only plays to the lococentric part of the hobby and does nothing at all to further genuine pre-grouping modelling.

 

I would happily fork out my money to purchase early rolling stock(RTR)  that fits to my chosen era but freelance? 

 

A big no thank you.

 

Regards,

 

Craig W

 

 

I am fully aware that these 4 / 6 wheel coaches are not in any way accurate representations of the prototype - but on the other hand I do not have the physical dexterity to build, let alone apply intricate lining to 'accurate' kits. Nor do I wish to join the "lets model BR 1950s / 1960s grot brigade" - my encounters with steam are of the beautifully presented locos and carriages at the Bluebell - and THAT is the look I want to replicate in model form.

 

That is not to say I wouldn't purchase 100% accurate LBSCR or SECR 4 wheeled stock - but equally I'm not going to sit there complaining when a 'near enough' product appears on the market that enables a 'representative' train to be put together.

 

Freelance 4/6 wheelers suitably lined will look perfect behind the ornately lined out locos (remember that in many cases the 4 wheelers that are preserved are authentic bodies mounted on ex big 4 / BR parcel van underframes anyway) and I suspect many others will think the same way.

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, phil-b259 said:

 

 

I am fully aware that these 4 / 6 wheel coaches are not in any way accurate representations of the prototype - but on the other hand I do not have the physical dexterity to build, let alone apply intricate lining to 'accurate' kits. Nor do I wish to join the "lets model BR 1950s / 1960s grot brigade" - my encounters with steam are of the beautifully presented locos and carriages at the Bluebell - and THAT is the look I want to replicate in model form.

 

That is not to say I wouldn't purchase 100% accurate LBSCR or SECR 4 wheeled stock - but equally I'm not going to sit there complaining when a 'near enough' product appears on the market that enables a 'representative' train to be put together.

 

Freelance 4/6 wheelers suitably lined will look perfect behind the ornately lined out locos (remember that in many cases the 4 wheelers that are preserved are authentic bodies mounted on ex big 4 / BR parcel van underframes anyway) and I suspect many others will think the same way.

 

 

 

Agreed.  If someone rattled out 100% accurate MR, LNWR or L&Y RTR coaches, I’d be there like a shot.  However, I’ll buy some of these and some of Hattons efforts because, for me, some are near enough.  The painting’s certainly far better that I’ll achieve.  As I’ve said elsewhere I’m modelling a fictional preserved line and fancy a rake in the style of the Stately Trains vehicles at Embsay and elsewhere (I’m also waiting for Chivers to rerelease the 6w LMS fish van, I’ve got plans for the chassis off one of those).  One thing I’ve really enjoyed on these two threads is the exchange of knowledge, I came to it as someone who knew next to nothing about pregrouping coaching stock (apart from a magpie-esque ‘Ooh, that’s nice..’) has now learned far more and I certainly know where to look for detailed information now.

 

Owain

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1 hour ago, friscopete said:

exactly

 

For starters, there should be either two footboards that would appear much as per on a brake van, or a single footboard in the location where you would normally see a footboard along the solebar. Hornby seem to have put a single footboard in a position that equates to the average of the two that should be there rather than mounting the single footboard at a height where a single footboard should be.

 

They look rather odd, even for a supposedly generic* vehicle.

 

*(Stroudley by basic design even though they've deviated from the finer detail, but who's paying attention to that anymore?).

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2 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

Or, putting it another way, if a passenger was stepping between a compartment and a platform face, the Hornby footboard would be a deathtrap.

 

 

Maybe, just maybe, they were designed specifically to allow passengers to alight at Pelsall railway station. The Northbound platform had a weird halfway house height to it and it changed along its length too...

 

No? I didn't think so either! :P

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52 minutes ago, Zunnan said:

 

For starters, there should be either two footboards that would appear much as per on a brake van, or a single footboard in the location where you would normally see a footboard along the solebar. Hornby seem to have put a single footboard in a position that equates to the average of the two that should be there rather than mounting the single footboard at a height where a single footboard should be.

 

They look rather odd, even for a supposedly generic* vehicle.

 

*(Stroudley by basic design even though they've deviated from the finer detail, but who's paying attention to that anymore?).

Fortunately it’s a separately fitted part that should be on its own bag in the box. Great opportunity for someone to sell a more representative looking alternative.

 

Brian.

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